Monday war - 02 WRX Wagon v 330D?
18 March 2002, 09:42 AM
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Morning all. As there are so many 330D owners here, I feel I have to ask this.
Due to certain BMW discounts, I can get a 330D Touring (minus options) for the same price as a PPP 02 Wagon. (I'm after a mad estate, so M3 and STI are out)
Performance-wise, I know the scoob has it. That's the easy part.
The difficult part is, it's my money, and I have to keep the car for 5 yrs in order to have the discount. So after that, I can sell the scoob and lose about 12k in depreciation, or sell the BM and lose barely a grand.
And family situation means I can only get one more car which will be a small 4-door shopper. (am told I'm not allowed a Mini
, guess that means the 7 is out too )
So the head tells me "money!" while the heart tells me "speed!"
I'm going to test drive both this week. Anyone give me tips on what to look out for, good or bad points of each? One thing I read a few days ago was the 330D feels torquey but runs out of revs.
Thanks!
Brendan
Due to certain BMW discounts, I can get a 330D Touring (minus options) for the same price as a PPP 02 Wagon. (I'm after a mad estate, so M3 and STI are out)
Performance-wise, I know the scoob has it. That's the easy part.
The difficult part is, it's my money, and I have to keep the car for 5 yrs in order to have the discount. So after that, I can sell the scoob and lose about 12k in depreciation, or sell the BM and lose barely a grand.
And family situation means I can only get one more car which will be a small 4-door shopper. (am told I'm not allowed a Mini
, guess that means the 7 is out too )So the head tells me "money!" while the heart tells me "speed!"
I'm going to test drive both this week. Anyone give me tips on what to look out for, good or bad points of each? One thing I read a few days ago was the 330D feels torquey but runs out of revs.
Thanks!
Brendan
18 March 2002, 02:48 PM
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Why not buy an older Scooby then you can save some money and have the speed!
I got out of the buying new cars game... too much money on depreciation.
The 330D is a nice car but it is not a speed merchant (admittidly I haven't driven one) nice car for everyday use but if you want it for thwe twisties then you will be disapointed. Also if you are buying it with no options you'll be bored, at least in a Scooby with no luxuries you can blast it for a smile.
What you should do is transplant the BMW bodywork onto the Scooby running chassis... then you can have Scooby power and handfling with BMW looks and interior etc.. okay maybe not..
JGM
I got out of the buying new cars game... too much money on depreciation.
The 330D is a nice car but it is not a speed merchant (admittidly I haven't driven one) nice car for everyday use but if you want it for thwe twisties then you will be disapointed. Also if you are buying it with no options you'll be bored, at least in a Scooby with no luxuries you can blast it for a smile.
What you should do is transplant the BMW bodywork onto the Scooby running chassis... then you can have Scooby power and handfling with BMW looks and interior etc.. okay maybe not..
JGM
18 March 2002, 02:53 PM
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I have to say that if your heads saying "BMW" you really need to look at the options book. Add around £6 - £8k to the list price to get reasonable creature comforts. Then the scooby looks a lot better. You could live with the scooby with NO optional extra's and add to them later... as there's a market for third party add ons.
Jza
Jza
18 March 2002, 07:58 PM
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I'm 23 and therefore performance biased and have driven both cars In terms of raw performance and handling you can't beat the Impreza. BUT, if you load them both up with wife, kids and luggage the 330d's performance is totally unaffected whereas the scooby would suffer. Take the test drive, sink the throttle in any gear at 1500rpm and I doubt you'll buy another petrol car again! It's that good!! If I had my choice I'd probably take the Impreza cause I am absolutely only interested in straight line performance! As for the twisties the BMW in 4th gear is very well composed especially if you don't bottle it and just nail the throttle - there really won't be much it! I'd be interested to know how you get on after the test drives, I suspect by virtue of the fact your looking at estate cars??? that you'll prefer the crushing thud of all that torque. IMHO. Have fun!
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18 March 2002, 08:39 PM
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What about the SAAB 9-5 2.3T Aero Estate? Any deal on this out in Portugal. Got a Scooby wagon myself and had a 3 series Touring beforehand but always had a soft spot for the SAAB in silver. Just a thought.
Jerome
Jerome
18 March 2002, 09:29 PM
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I have had a 330d for 12 months after 16 months of (290hp tuned) scooby ownership. I wouldn't go back.
The 330d hammers the scoob in 95% of situations (ie all but extreme 'hoofing') and those times are getting less and less these days. The 330d is still a quick car. In manual form straight line speed is not much different. Mid range, the 330d will beat the new age wagon. (50-70 equal to a ferrari 355).
Add in the ownership experiance (ie build quality, comfort, luxury etc), better support (dealer, BMW emergency etc), it becomes an even more compelling arguement.
Don't forget, even as standard, the 330d comes with an equipment list the WRX can only dream of. Auto climate control, PDC, full electrics, multi adjust wheel/seat, saftey features. A grand will add full leather.
Finally the finances. You will save £1000's and £1000's a year with a 330d. Servicing (less than half the cost per annum), depreciation (less than a 3rd p.a.), tyres (less than 25% of the cost p.a.), brake pads (less than 25% p.a.)....and a 50%+ saving on fuel bills. I worked out I am between £7000 to £9000 PER YEAR better off with the 330d. That saving has already paid for a 330bhp/tonne bike engined westfield which more than makes up any of the WRX's benefits you forego...and a whole lot more
If you do medium to high miles, the WRX is very compromised most of the time.
If you use the WRX merely as a weekend plaything, it is left wanting against bespoke sports cars.
It is a good compromise, but why settle for a compromise??
email me offline if you want more info on the 330d
The 330d hammers the scoob in 95% of situations (ie all but extreme 'hoofing') and those times are getting less and less these days. The 330d is still a quick car. In manual form straight line speed is not much different. Mid range, the 330d will beat the new age wagon. (50-70 equal to a ferrari 355).
Add in the ownership experiance (ie build quality, comfort, luxury etc), better support (dealer, BMW emergency etc), it becomes an even more compelling arguement.
Don't forget, even as standard, the 330d comes with an equipment list the WRX can only dream of. Auto climate control, PDC, full electrics, multi adjust wheel/seat, saftey features. A grand will add full leather.
Finally the finances. You will save £1000's and £1000's a year with a 330d. Servicing (less than half the cost per annum), depreciation (less than a 3rd p.a.), tyres (less than 25% of the cost p.a.), brake pads (less than 25% p.a.)....and a 50%+ saving on fuel bills. I worked out I am between £7000 to £9000 PER YEAR better off with the 330d. That saving has already paid for a 330bhp/tonne bike engined westfield which more than makes up any of the WRX's benefits you forego...and a whole lot more
If you do medium to high miles, the WRX is very compromised most of the time.
If you use the WRX merely as a weekend plaything, it is left wanting against bespoke sports cars.
It is a good compromise, but why settle for a compromise??
email me offline if you want more info on the 330d
19 March 2002, 06:11 AM
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What about a Mitsubishi VR4 (legnum) estate,
280 bhp 2.5V6 Twin turbo in std form with the same traction control system as the evo.
climate control
abs
tiptronic
280 bhp 2.5V6 Twin turbo in std form with the same traction control system as the evo.
climate control
abs
tiptronic
19 March 2002, 07:10 AM
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Gary why do you write here in Scoobynet?
I really want to know, its not because I want you to stop or anything, but its obvious you don't like Subaru all that much anymore.
I just want to know so don't get it the worng way.
I really want to know, its not because I want you to stop or anything, but its obvious you don't like Subaru all that much anymore.
I just want to know so don't get it the worng way.
19 March 2002, 08:43 AM
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i'd take the beemer. better looking, nicer to be in, not as slow as you think
gary probably contributed on this thread because he can speak from experience. he has owned ascooby and a 330d. i find his comments interesting. just because he says the 330d is the better choice, does that make him wrong? i doubt he took the time to respond to the topic out of hatred for scoobys
and yes...i would definately rather have the beemer
gary probably contributed on this thread because he can speak from experience. he has owned ascooby and a 330d. i find his comments interesting. just because he says the 330d is the better choice, does that make him wrong? i doubt he took the time to respond to the topic out of hatred for scoobys
and yes...i would definately rather have the beemer
19 March 2002, 10:34 AM
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Thanks all
GaryC, thanks, I've followed your comments with interest over the last 12 months. The compromise comments certainly apply, but the problem is I don't think I can get the 7esque addition to the stable. My first car was a Dutton for 4 yrs, and since that I have often thought how boring cars were - even my Terzo, until I went on a Clang n' Ball run, where my grin obstructed my view and I pranged it (for salsa-king this translates to
), yet that was at speeds not normally seen on the road (ahem). I am also not doing anything like the mileage you do - maybe 10, 12k max. I won't use it for business or commuting, so I don't see that the running costs will be as much as they were for you. Hence the difficulty in decision!!
JFB - I thought about Saab briefly, I'm told I also get a massive discount off Saabs (Volvos and Mercs are the other makes), but as a twisties thrill, they just don't shake my tree. And unlike SaxoBoy, straight-line speed is exactly NOT what I'm after. It's the ability to go round bends that puts the grin on my face, hence my fascination with the Dutton, the Scoob - and, I'm told, the Beemer! Other thing is kickdown acceleration for overtaking on short straights, again the scoob's turbo really annoyed me on that. At least this one has PPP, which I believe improves the torque delivery on that score. Unfortunately, as a new car, I won't be able to replace the downpipe which seems to be the better answer.
Goldfinger - steering wheel's on the wrong side mate!
Spudgun - yes, but just how long would you keep it?
A few other confusing factors. Diesel here is 2/3 the price of petrol. Insurance is more expensive for the beemer 330D than for the scoob (2100 euros vs 1900 euros, as the purchase price is so much higher). Every Tom, Dick and Haroldo drives a 3-series estate (usually 320D), I've barely seen 3 wagons in the year I've been here, and perhaps 15 saloons - I'd have thought, unlike Mosside and Lewisham, that the Beemer is more attractive for being nicked and shipped over to Morocco or Albania. Dealer network is similarly proportioned, so no chance of going to the next scoob one if I don't like the first. And Finally - there are rumours, but only rumours, that our office could move to Finland next year, where diesel freezes and 4x4 is loadsa fun!
Decisions, decisions…Can't wait for these test drives
BJH
GaryC, thanks, I've followed your comments with interest over the last 12 months. The compromise comments certainly apply, but the problem is I don't think I can get the 7esque addition to the stable. My first car was a Dutton for 4 yrs, and since that I have often thought how boring cars were - even my Terzo, until I went on a Clang n' Ball run, where my grin obstructed my view and I pranged it (for salsa-king this translates to
), yet that was at speeds not normally seen on the road (ahem). I am also not doing anything like the mileage you do - maybe 10, 12k max. I won't use it for business or commuting, so I don't see that the running costs will be as much as they were for you. Hence the difficulty in decision!!JFB - I thought about Saab briefly, I'm told I also get a massive discount off Saabs (Volvos and Mercs are the other makes), but as a twisties thrill, they just don't shake my tree. And unlike SaxoBoy, straight-line speed is exactly NOT what I'm after. It's the ability to go round bends that puts the grin on my face, hence my fascination with the Dutton, the Scoob - and, I'm told, the Beemer! Other thing is kickdown acceleration for overtaking on short straights, again the scoob's turbo really annoyed me on that. At least this one has PPP, which I believe improves the torque delivery on that score. Unfortunately, as a new car, I won't be able to replace the downpipe which seems to be the better answer.
Goldfinger - steering wheel's on the wrong side mate!
Spudgun - yes, but just how long would you keep it?
A few other confusing factors. Diesel here is 2/3 the price of petrol. Insurance is more expensive for the beemer 330D than for the scoob (2100 euros vs 1900 euros, as the purchase price is so much higher). Every Tom, Dick and Haroldo drives a 3-series estate (usually 320D), I've barely seen 3 wagons in the year I've been here, and perhaps 15 saloons - I'd have thought, unlike Mosside and Lewisham, that the Beemer is more attractive for being nicked and shipped over to Morocco or Albania. Dealer network is similarly proportioned, so no chance of going to the next scoob one if I don't like the first. And Finally - there are rumours, but only rumours, that our office could move to Finland next year, where diesel freezes and 4x4 is loadsa fun!
Decisions, decisions…Can't wait for these test drives
BJH
19 March 2002, 06:42 PM
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I don't know why BMW don't have the 330d coupe but I'll say this you could stick that engine in almost any pile of crap car and I'd still buy it! Imagine that grunt in my VTS, probably just split the car in half rather than go anywhere!!
19 March 2002, 08:55 PM
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Elondan - I don't hate Imprezas, far from it, I think they are fantastic cars, and always will. The new WRX has watered down the attraction a bit, but the 'old age' impreza, especially in PPP/DP/IK/SS BB (like my old one ) or STi form is a stunner, and IMO the best of the breed. I am fortunate, i still get to drive them often - and most frequently a 330hp STi4 TypeR
BUT....I have a balanced opinion. All cars have flaws. My BMW has, and subarus certainly have. For all their greatness, they are still a cheap £10k jap saloon with 'fancy' running gear. That 'fancy' running gear makes the car one of the fastest and most fun things (a-b) on the road, but don't elevate them beyond their station.
Take a look at the RS BBS - they are so blinkered to 'their brand' they never look outside the RS box, and thus miis out on life beyond 1994!! Don't get the same way!! Look at life beyond the end of your bonnet - you might like it. It is only through true comparison that you can truly rate anything!!
330d coupe - I don't know....but I am sure there will be soon as Merc are bringing out a CLK diesel with the summer facelift and the 330d engine gets an upgrade to 220bhp and 330+lb/ft That being said, I don't think the 'd' suits the coupe body - to me it wouldn't gel right!
[Edited by GaryC - 3/19/2002 8:58:16 PM]
) or STi form is a stunner, and IMO the best of the breed. I am fortunate, i still get to drive them often - and most frequently a 330hp STi4 TypeR BUT....I have a balanced opinion. All cars have flaws. My BMW has, and subarus certainly have. For all their greatness, they are still a cheap £10k jap saloon with 'fancy' running gear. That 'fancy' running gear makes the car one of the fastest and most fun things (a-b) on the road, but don't elevate them beyond their station.
Take a look at the RS BBS - they are so blinkered to 'their brand' they never look outside the RS box, and thus miis out on life beyond 1994!! Don't get the same way!! Look at life beyond the end of your bonnet - you might like it. It is only through true comparison that you can truly rate anything!!
330d coupe - I don't know....but I am sure there will be soon as Merc are bringing out a CLK diesel with the summer facelift and the 330d engine gets an upgrade to 220bhp and 330+lb/ft
That being said, I don't think the 'd' suits the coupe body - to me it wouldn't gel right![Edited by GaryC - 3/19/2002 8:58:16 PM]
19 March 2002, 09:04 PM
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Brendan - if only c10k per year, why the diesel?? Why not go 330i? Club Sport Granted Diesel is so much cheaper over there, but on low mileage, the difference will be minimal?? Don't get me wrong, I prefered the 'd' to the 'i' or 'ci' but..
a) I spend 2-3 hours a day on the road getting from AtoB so the more relaxed style of the 'd' suits me, and
b) I have the nutter car for when I need the speed
Yours is a difficult choice. If the new age was as good as the 'classic' it would be a more compelling arguement, but with the softer approach and (IMO) poor looks of the new wagon (needs the flared arches - it looks like a £10k cheap jap estate without ) the case for the BMW is stronger - especailly with the cost benefit (ie cheap purchase price )
Granted Diesel is so much cheaper over there, but on low mileage, the difference will be minimal?? Don't get me wrong, I prefered the 'd' to the 'i' or 'ci' but..a) I spend 2-3 hours a day on the road getting from AtoB so the more relaxed style of the 'd' suits me, and
b) I have the nutter car for when I need the speed
Yours is a difficult choice. If the new age was as good as the 'classic' it would be a more compelling arguement, but with the softer approach and (IMO) poor looks of the new wagon (needs the flared arches - it looks like a £10k cheap jap estate without
) the case for the BMW is stronger - especailly with the cost benefit (ie cheap purchase price )
19 March 2002, 10:45 PM
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With the changes in company car tax from April I'm sure a 330dci will arrive, Peugoet have put the 2.2 diesel in the 406 Coupe.
Does one exist in Germany, is it just BMW UK not selling it over here? The Germans tend to be well ahead of us when it comes to the adoption diesel.
Nigel
Does one exist in Germany, is it just BMW UK not selling it over here? The Germans tend to be well ahead of us when it comes to the adoption diesel.
Nigel
19 March 2002, 10:58 PM
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Gary, not sure why, I think it's because the world and his wife say how good the diesel is. I see the Impreza was named car of the 90s, I almost wonder if the 330D will be named car of the noughties, it seems to be almost revolutionary (A sporty diesel???). The rest of it I think is basically tending towards pipe and slippers stuff (I'm 33) so I'd prefer not to put it here!! Resale value too, I think a 330i estate would depreciate big time. Oh yeah, and the insurance quote... 2700euros!!
Got the PPP MY02 booked for tomorrow evening, first time I've ever driven a car in Portugal, in rush hour... can't wait!
Have got one other factor pushing me to the scoob, but that's staying up my sleeve until I can post a picture of My New Car here. Give it a month or two...
Brendan
???). The rest of it I think is basically tending towards pipe and slippers stuff (I'm 33) so I'd prefer not to put it here!! Resale value too, I think a 330i estate would depreciate big time. Oh yeah, and the insurance quote... 2700euros!!Got the PPP MY02 booked for tomorrow evening, first time I've ever driven a car in Portugal, in rush hour... can't wait!
Have got one other factor pushing me to the scoob, but that's staying up my sleeve until I can post a picture of My New Car here
. Give it a month or two...Brendan
20 March 2002, 02:21 PM
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Nigel, no we don´t have a 330dci (?) yet. If you or anyone wants to see what has been put into the general market here, just click -
3 series coupé
or main site...
main bmw site deutschland
I find the coupé a little cramped around the head though, but never doubt the power of a diesel especially in the BMW There are not so many scoobs here, but plenty of other makes (porche, bmw, mercedes etc) that certainly makes up for it...
Neal
3 series coupé
or main site...
main bmw site deutschland
I find the coupé a little cramped around the head though
, but never doubt the power of a diesel especially in the BMW There are not so many scoobs here, but plenty of other makes (porche, bmw, mercedes etc) that certainly makes up for it...Neal
20 March 2002, 05:58 PM
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Totally different cars really.
If you would like to drive quickly whatever the situation and don't want to be bothered with downchanging all the time the go for the 330d. I was offered a 330dx (4wd) touring at £16000 (LHD from Germany) at 1 yr old with 10,000kms. It seems that Germans do not put a high value on nearly new BMWs actually as they all seem like bargains even as LHD.
If you go for the WRX you'll have to drive it hard to have fun.
I think you'll find the ownership of the BMW to be very good and you'll be surprised how many seemingly more powerful cars you will leave for dead when in normal driving situations. They do run out of revs early, as do most diesels but these engines are really amazing and the advances in the last few months are frankly staggering. Cornering is a different matter though. The revisions to the BMW saloon steering geometry on the facelift model make a big difference to feedback etc but you will not get the same level of driver involvement as in the WRX. If you can get hold of an 'x' model then you should see similar levels of grip though (something a lot of us confuse with good handling)
If you would like to drive quickly whatever the situation and don't want to be bothered with downchanging all the time the go for the 330d. I was offered a 330dx (4wd) touring at £16000 (LHD from Germany) at 1 yr old with 10,000kms. It seems that Germans do not put a high value on nearly new BMWs actually as they all seem like bargains even as LHD.
If you go for the WRX you'll have to drive it hard to have fun.
I think you'll find the ownership of the BMW to be very good and you'll be surprised how many seemingly more powerful cars you will leave for dead when in normal driving situations. They do run out of revs early, as do most diesels but these engines are really amazing and the advances in the last few months are frankly staggering. Cornering is a different matter though. The revisions to the BMW saloon steering geometry on the facelift model make a big difference to feedback etc but you will not get the same level of driver involvement as in the WRX. If you can get hold of an 'x' model then you should see similar levels of grip though (something a lot of us confuse with good handling)
20 March 2002, 09:49 PM
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Tested the PPP MY02 today.
I spent the time getting used to the steering wheel on the wrong side, trying to judge the width of the car the wrong way round, crunching the gears with my right hand, watching through the back of my head for psycho Portuguese drivers, not knowing any of the roads I was on, preparing myself every now and then for eye-level 6pm sunshine (like driving into a laser beam), and eventually kerbing one of the anthracites as I went round a RH corner. :O
Amongst all this there were things I actually did notice about the car. Buckets were very comfy (I'm skinnyish), brakes were progressive (Prodrive, not standard ones) rather than snatchy, throttle was extremely sensitive at low speeds, gearbox was REALLY notchy, exhaust note was sweet. Oh, and when I finally hit the throttle at the lights in anger, it did 0-60 with very little in between. Unfortunately very little to test its cornering ability with my lack of local road knowledge. I might have to go back and ask for another go
LOL amongst such experts I might as well comment on the new Fiat shopper that's just come out...
Well, when BMW get off their backsides I'll compare it with the 330D.
Thanks for your patience all
BJH
I spent the time getting used to the steering wheel on the wrong side, trying to judge the width of the car the wrong way round, crunching the gears with my right hand, watching through the back of my head for psycho Portuguese drivers, not knowing any of the roads I was on, preparing myself every now and then for eye-level 6pm sunshine (like driving into a laser beam), and eventually kerbing one of the anthracites as I went round a RH corner. :O
Amongst all this there were things I actually did notice about the car. Buckets were very comfy (I'm skinnyish), brakes were progressive (Prodrive, not standard ones) rather than snatchy, throttle was extremely sensitive at low speeds, gearbox was REALLY notchy, exhaust note was sweet. Oh, and when I finally hit the throttle at the lights in anger, it did 0-60 with very little in between
. Unfortunately very little to test its cornering ability with my lack of local road knowledge. I might have to go back and ask for another goLOL amongst such experts I might as well comment on the new Fiat shopper that's just come out...
Well, when BMW get off their backsides I'll compare it with the 330D.
Thanks for your patience all
BJH
21 March 2002, 08:42 AM
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GaryC & Other 330D owners,
Has your 330d got the sports suspension, is it needed?
And the time old diesel questions; does it sounds like a bus when started and how about on the road (you must still be able to hear the diesel clatter)?
Cheers,
Tim.
Has your 330d got the sports suspension, is it needed?
And the time old diesel questions; does it sounds like a bus when started and how about on the road (you must still be able to hear the diesel clatter)?
Cheers,
Tim.
21 March 2002, 09:14 AM
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tpm - In a word....NO! When stone cold you can just make out the clatter but when she's warm it actually sounds really good, perhaps even a little too quiet!
21 March 2002, 09:41 AM
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Ahhhhh, the old 330d debate. Been away for a few days, but always like this one! My 330d was/is a fantastic car. My local dealer had 6 people chopping in P1's for 330d's! Mine was the Sport, as I thought the SE was a little soft for my kind of driving.
It's superb on the Motorway, great round town , and laps the Nurburgring pretty quickly too!
Brendan, if it was my choice, I'd have the BMW
Matt
My 330d was/is a fantastic car. My local dealer had 6 people chopping in P1's for 330d's! Mine was the Sport, as I thought the SE was a little soft for my kind of driving.It's superb on the Motorway, great round town , and laps the Nurburgring pretty quickly too!
Brendan, if it was my choice, I'd have the BMW
Matt
21 March 2002, 10:38 PM
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Juan
I don't actually have a company car but with the change in taxation taking place from April I know a number of people that are considering diesel equivalents of their current petrol cars.
Basically with taxation moving to CO2 emissions from April, and diesel emitting lower CO2 than its petrol equivalents (though there is a small tax penalty imposed on diesel), a decent saving on the tax bill could be made by switching to diesel without sacrificing performance.
I don't actually have a company car but with the change in taxation taking place from April I know a number of people that are considering diesel equivalents of their current petrol cars.
Basically with taxation moving to CO2 emissions from April, and diesel emitting lower CO2 than its petrol equivalents (though there is a small tax penalty imposed on diesel), a decent saving on the tax bill could be made by switching to diesel without sacrificing performance.