Oz

Not sure if this has been previously discussed and (if so) I'm sorry for repeating...

But...

Evo Mag did a car evaluation test (pretty much the old Performance Car system) on a couple of cars and the MY01 didn't fare too well. Basically, it finished behind a Clio172 and was beaten in pretty much every category.

The Clio was equal in the 0-100mph-0 test. It got to 100mph slightly quicker and was slightly slower braking.

The Clio got through the slalom test quicker. Held a higher lateral g. Was exposed to danger (when overtaking an articulated truck) for a shorter amount of time and lapped a dry circuit quicker.

This, for me, sums up why I can't buy a new Scooby and have to look at something else. The MY01 was nearly four seconds slower to 100mph than the MY00. It was a second down on the TED test I saw for a scooby back in 97/87 in Performance Car.

It's very sad. They've neutered it.

chiark

Does anyone have the necessary data to piece together a comparison with the "Old" scoob that I know and love?

James Douglas

Ive got the WRX and the article was v.dispointing. I think the fact that they missed out the wet handling bits was bad - the car would have faired a lot better in "real uk conditions". But i still cant fathom what was wrong - the in gear times are dreadful!! The turbo lag when exiting slow corners (you need to be in first when its really a second gear corner) really raised its ugly head on the lap times.

Having read so many threads about the WRX - i still love it. If you read Pete Croneys comments on his WRX (http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/Forum1/HTML/009865.html) the exhaust seems to be holding the car back a lot - its a smaller diameter than the MY00.

You really need a decent exhaust system on the car to get the performance out of it. I ask a simple question. Dont most owners on pre MY01 scoobys add an exhaust system anyway? So if they buy a MY01 they would do the same? This has a greater effect on the MY01 - so it follows that the MY01 compared to a MY00 with the same exhaust will be a closer match performance wise.

Obviously no one so far has posted dyno charts of this - but it seems to make the car so much better according to Pete.

Could this become a standard move for MY01 owners - accept the car needs a new exhaust (as they would have put on their MK1 cars anyway)?


Pete also comments on how much better the car can be made with a suspension upgrade - to make use of the superior chassis.

Im going to get an exhaust and then offer my car to EVO for next years test!!!

One other question - on the weight front of the new car - how does it compare to a mk1 with Air Con and airbags fitted? Is the gap a lot less? How do the in gear time compare?

James

Matt Churchill

This does pose a real question, if the "old" car is quicker out of the blocks than the "new" one, and the common mod is to add an exhaust, won't the "old" one always be better?

From Pete's comments about the suspension etc., am I right in thinking that a "new" one will only eclipse an "old" one after some major work - which presumably is less common amongst owners.

Just a thought

Matt

James Douglas

Matt,

I dont think thats what Pete says - he says that "If you are prepared to sacrifice a small amount the extra NVH levels, then there are huge benefits in handling to be had from the extra rigidity of the new chassis."

That doesnt imply its a worse handling car then the old one - the one thing most people agree is that the new car understeers a lot less than the old car and is less fazed by bumpy roads.

I also dont agree with your exhaust comment. If the new car is 10% down on power because of the exhaust, you add a new ehaust you get say 25% increase. In the old car the increase was only 17.5% over the standard one. The net result is that the two cars are now very similar - the gap closes.

My point is most people junk the std exhaust whichever model they buy, so people need not be too put off by the std performance of the new car if they intend to junk the exhaust.

IMHO with a bit of kit and mods the new car is a great package. It a shame it wasnt in the first place but it would seem that if Pete's experience is anything to go by EU regs have killed it a bit.

People who build kits/mods for the MY01 must be licking their chops cause theres a bigger market for add ons than with the mk1!!! Eveyone has to buy something!

Maybe we should all buy shares!!!

James

kryten

25% (ie 50+ bhp) from just an exhaust?

That would be _some_ exhaust!!!!

xyzpaul

The argument that most people change the exhausts so it doesn't matter that the new car is slow, is crap.

90% of cars have no performance upgrades, so it is the standard performance that matters to 90% of buyers.

Matt Churchill

Sorry James, I'm with Paul - most people don't get rid of the entire exhaust - therefore power increases are irrelevant, and according to your figures the WRX is still down on power, which on every day roads I think is more important than the rigidity of the body.

I suppose at the end of the day, they both benefit from beefing up - but the WRX is coming from further back.

Matt

Mike Owen

Emmmm,

All well and good guys... but how about the opinion of some MY01 owners! Anyone else out there other than Pete C. and me, actually bought one? I've got mine booked in to get the 1k service done next Friday. So should then be able to start opening her up a bit. My feelings at the moment, are that the car will be quicker cross country, than either of my other two Scoobs, because this one understeers considerably less and the whole car feels more balanced and easier to place. Thus encouraging you to press on a bit. Still fells as tight as a gnats bum at the moment though, so hard to tell the whole story really. It's also so bloody quiet compared to either of the others, that the "sensation" of speed is considerably reduced.

Be most interested to see some dyno read outs and see one (preferably a standard car) on the track.

I've found a solution to the back ache problem in the "sports seats". Stick a small cushion (aca. cheap lumber support) behind your lower back and hey presto, no problem any longer. Anyone know of a decent proper lumbar cushion you can buy? I seem to remember some pump up jobies (or was that a rubber woman?).

Have fun folks....

Stef

There was one at th last day at Donno, and it seemed to hold it's own pretty well.
Everyone I know that has driven one says it handles much better than the old model. Anyone wanna lend me theirs on Sunday?

Stef.

Chins

EVO MAG

Interesting that last year when they rated the P1 as the best affordable performance car, that kicked the EVO VI's butt people on this BBS accused EVO of being in IM's pocket.

Now that EVO mag say some not so complementary things about the MY01 they are to be believed !!. Does this show that EVO mag is unbiased and that the P1 and RB5 Kick EVO VI ?. The new Impreza was IM big new launch and they would of done anything to get good write ups in EVO.


Performance

I think the reason that the two cars that EVO tested were slow is down to tight engines - as well as a little weight. EVO tested the car with a couple of thousand on the clock both times. In recent times Scooby engines have got tighter and tighter from new - excluding the STI and P1 engines which are built slghtly differently (blueprint). My Terzo felt quiet loose from new, the RB5 a bit tighter, the MY00 was very tight and the MY01 seems tighter again. They need to have 4-5000 at least to really start to work. I tested my dealers car with 2000 miles on it and now 5000 - the difference is night and day. I wouldnt question EVO's figures, but when I got my old MY00 if felt slower than 17 secs to 60. I also had an S3 at the same time. That felt quicker than a brand new MY00. 4,000 miles later and it had gone the other way.

Exhaust

This is a BBS for enthusiasts - therefore most of us do change the exhaust. The people that dont probably couldnt care if the car was 2 secs slower to 100 (Autocars figures).
However what Pete is saying is that it will make more difference to the MY01 than a MY00 as the exhaust is more restrictive.

I'll make sure we have a MY01 on the RR day. Maybe even do an exhaust swap there and then.

Handling

Pete is saying that even in std form the MY01 is a great improvement over the MK1. With Leda added it moves the game even further.

Me I'm in the market for a new Scooby - bye S4. Just dont think it will be the MK1. Have thought about another P1 at low price, but there a new player in town.

Jonathan

spudgun

my flame suit is on standby....

different headlights, different exhaust, different wheels, different boot spoiler, ppp, etc etc etc.
all this on a NEW so-called 'performance' car!
if i owned a company like scoobysport, i too would be saying how much my exhaust system can radically change the car! the fact is, most people think it looks a dog ( thats why i bought an x reg old shape) if you want a cheap car that is ugly but is fast, buy a pulsar or something along them lines.
my argument isnt with pete croney, or people buying my01's, its with subaru for inflicting this dogs dinner of a car on loyal customers. do they really think in a couple of years time i'll buy one of these things, only to face a huge bill putting it right with after market modifications!
sorry, but i'll see what the new x-type r is like, or even a skyline. i love my scooby, and will keep it as a second car, but i cant and wont buy a my01. rant over

Blow Dog

Test drove a MY01 today, came away very impressed. Don't go there thinking it to be a hardcore car. It aint. What it is, though is a very capable, very swift junior exec saloon. It handled fantasticly, felt a lot smoother than my evo, not as eratic and any surface or camber or bend I threw at it got eaten with ease.

Lets see what STi can do.

Cem

Pete Croney

I got a chance to "play" over the weekend, now that I have done the 1000 miles.

Well, well, well.

First car I was up against was the Pat Mobile. Pat's car is an STi2, but has a UK 97 engine with full Scoobysport exhaust and is running on a Pectel engine management system and modified TD05H turbo (ie BIG). He also has Leda and Brembos.

Nothing in it on acceleration, from rest to... surely not officer Same from say 50 - 70. But through roundabouts, I can take 50m every time.

I also played against Tony's (my right hand man at work) UK99 with full SS exhaust, on standard suspension.

Perhaps my car was marginally quicker accelerating, but it was too close to call. Cornering etc... BYE!!!

The real test will be to compare figures on the rollers and test against a standard WRX, in the real world.

Neil Smalley

If I remember rightly the Jap MY01 version has 240Bhp as standard, but because of emissions etc this is reduced to 215 over here. What Pete has done(i'm probably 99.9% wrong on this) is to replace the emissions friendly exhaust, cat and downpipes and so bring the car up to near Jap spec.

It also confirms my suspicions that a PPP MY01 will have the about same straightline speed as a standard Mk1. I also have a theory that an STI MY01 in UK trim will have the same or less straight line speed as a PPP Mk1. I.e it will be about 250-260Bhp as opposed to 276-280 of the Jap MY01 STI.

Of course with it's improved handling(and it IS) a modified MY01 will be able to outpace a standard Mk1 fairly easy.

Of course why we should have to spend money to improve the car when Subaru should have done a more complete job is beyond me. The cynical side of me thinks that they did it so dealers etc can do a roaring trade in aftermarket bits which.
1. Don't need to be type approved.
2. Carry a higher margin than the cars.
3. Most people will want anyway.

Just my wild theory anyway.

James Douglas

I think that im happy buying some mods for my MY01 - i would have done the same for a MY00 if i had of bought that anyway. As i said in my previous thread, a new exhaust has a greater effect on a MY01 car than a MY00 as the exhaust is smaller in diameter.

Im keen to see what difference another 3000 miles makes on the performance!

By the way - Pete Croney - Is your car a standard UK WRX or an imported WRX with the 240+bhp?

James

Pete Croney

Its a UK car, supplied through the dealer network.

Chins

Neil

I dont follow your logic. If Pete car with exhaust mods is as quick as a MY99 with the same mods, why will a PPP MY01 only be the same speed as a MY99/00 ?. Seems that Pete's car is already as quick as a MK1. Add in an ECU and it will be as quick as a MK1 PPP.

Jonathan

Neil Smalley

It's all to do with power and the extra 150Kg of weight. 240BHP and 240ish lb/Ft of torque takes the MY01 to about the same power/weight ratio of an MK1. Therefore *about* the same levels of performance.

No one knows what extra torque the new PPP will give, but I suspect it will about the above levels. Prodrive will still want some level of emissions friendlyness and so they will have to keep at least one of the cats. Pete, as far as I can work out does not keep any of the cats on the car.

Therefore my rough guestimate is that Pete's fully decactted and non restricted MY01 will have about the same power etc as a MY01 PPP. Not sure about torque though, as the Prodrive pack is designed to give you loads more torque, I suspect the new one will be the same.

To be the same power/weight as a PPP MK1 a MY01 will need to be in the region of 270BHP+, gains which can realistically only be got by changing the ECU, being it PPP,link, motec etc etc.

It's extra the 150Kg and restricted exhaust that's the real killers. Drive your car with 2 adults in and then with just you in it. The MY01 is like driving a MK1 with 2 extra people in all the time.

As I said, just a wild mad hunch.

cwal1

Pete,

If all you have done is replace the full exhaust and it is now as fast as Pat's with a Pectel, BIG turbo, AND a full exhaust, (not to mention less lard) then either your exhaust is magic or Pat is a crap tuner

Chris.