M7STN

Hi there,

I have a 97 P WRX Import Impreza.

The engine was built approx 1000 miles ago, took the car out today, this was the first time the engine had been opened up/revved harder than normal driving since the build. Got back to the house, had a cup of tea, checked the oil and water and fired it up to go round to a mates house, when pulling out the drive revving to about 2.5k in first when I changed gear I thought I heard a slight noise, stopped the car and didn't hear anything when on idle, drove for about 1 minute and the car was knocking (almost like a marble sound) when on idle and when bein revved. Phoned a mate who has owned and blown a good few Subarus and he confirmed it was bottom end failure.
The last engine which was pretty much standard went in the same manner.

It now has the following spec:

EJ257 short motor from Roger Clark Motorsport
STI crank and rods
Omega pistons
New sump
New water pump rcm
New rcm oil pump
1.6mm 3 layer cometic metal head gaskets
11mm ARP head bolts
All new idler pulleys
Import sti timing belt
SS set of headers (manifold and up pipe)
3" kakimoto from turbo back
440 sti injectors
V3 STI heads
Excedy organic clutch
Ngk pfr7b uprated plugs
Baileys dumpvalve
Standard ECU, Intercooler and Turbo

After spending all this money on the car I am a little P'd off as to it going again. Is there any reason anyone can think as to why it has done another bottom end?

It is run on correct oil, warmed up, cooled down etc etc.....

Thanks, Stephen

Marx Mcrae

iTrader: (4)

what fuel are you using?
97 ron fuel is ok but dont ever use 95 ron

M7STN

Always run on V power mate.

hux309

I would say the onus is with rcm for supplying the short engine.

I would always use acl race bearings in any new build.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Take it back to whoever built it tbh, something aint right there if its not lasting...

Tony

scubbay

iTrader: (61)

Was your car mapped for the 2.5?

M7STN

No car had not been mapped, was told to do 1000 miles before having the car setup. Bottom end was supplied fully built. Car is running standard ECU, VF22 turbo and std intercooler.

Just got the car back from the painters yesterday with new slitter, clear indicators and full front end respray.

Not sure what do do now and not sure how much come back I will have with RCM. Will have to phone and see.

stevie1982

iTrader: (16)

the enigine was supplied new i take it? if so did they fit it or did you do it yourself or local garage etc as i have been looking at doing a 2.5 conversion on my p1. i was told by three different companies all regarded for being at the top of thier game and all said that once the new lump was in that it would need a base map on it straight away as it would be all wrong so i would supsect that was your problem also i was told 1500-1800 mile run in on the new base map for the 2.5, just my opinion mate and i would get in contact with a few of the tuning companies such as engine tuner, api, roger clark and subaru 4 to see where you stand. sorry to hear your bad news mate and hope you get it sorted

scubbay

iTrader: (61)

you were badly advised. A 2.5 running a 2.0 map would have massive detonation causing the failure you describe. The ignition timing on a 2.0 map is way different to that for 2.5

M7STN

Yeah engine was new and built using all new parts. I fitted the engine myself. I was advised to run in on my standard map which is obviously wrong. I will give them a ring tomorrow and see what the outcome is. It will mean new engine no matter what

Thanks

M7STN

Nightmare!! Don't know what to do here, I was told it would be safe on standard map. I am going to phone and see what they say.

scoobyschef

iTrader: (6)

not good mate, hope you get it sorted with out costing too much

jim

IRC450STI

I cant see RCM giving that kind of advise about running it on a standard 2ltr map are you sure they didnt say run it on a base map , you shouldnt really boost the car without a full map, infact your actuator should of been diconnected while you run it in to stop boost & ECU limited to about 4000rpm to stop you over reving it, Really hope you get something sorted mate, Good luck

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

Actuator should NOT be disconnected while running in and revs should NOT be limited electronically or otherwise to 4000 rpms.

An important part of the running in procedure is to give the engine some boost and varied revs (including some high rev work) to prevent glazing the bores.
I'll agree with you that you shouldn't run around revving the **** off it at 2bar plus, but all the same the above is not great advise.

MOTORS S GT

iTrader: (2)

You say the bottom end was supplied fully built, was this with the sump fitted, & what about the history of the top end.
What i am getting at is who fitted the heads etc & more importantly there state of cleaning.
It will be the get out clause of any engine builder when the rest of the build is out of there hands.
Also you say it was at the painters, how do you know they have'nt flogged the guts out of it when its cold.
Best of luck with this problem.

StickyMicky

i know of people who have ran in 2.5 conversions on the 2.0 map, but i would never advise it!

they are 25% larger engines, they require 25% extra fuel!!

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Several things come to mind here. It would be so far off the original map that it is almost crimninal to run it at all on a 2.0 map. 2.5's tend to overheat their oil, so a proper oil cooler is an essential parts of the conversion.

Sounds like you've given it some beans to see ' how it feels ' and on the wrong map you had no chance of it surviving.

The original fit Subaru bearings on a new motor are as good as it gets for fit. Agreed they are not tri-metal, BUT they are selectively sized to the crank and no-one outside of Subaru production line has access to selective sized bearings. We would use the originals as I am fairly certain RCM do for the same reason.

If we had supplied the motor and it had failed under the circumatsnces you advise we would not accept any responsibility for the damage as it was beyond our control.

However, we would never have allowed you to run it on the 2.0 map.

Tough luck mate, seems self inflicted from what is said above.

David APi

Agents for:
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Buddy Club exhausts
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And of course; the well known APi Performance Exedy organic clutch

Welcome to the API website

01926 614333

M7STN

Heads were V3 heads which were chemically cleaned before hand and were brandnew. I fitted the heads myself. I used all the parts advised by RCM. Sump was not fitted but engine was properly sealed from any dirt etc.

Car had not moved whilst at the painters, trust me I would not leave my car anywhere it would be abused / tampered with.

Thanks

M7STN

RCM advised standard Map would be ok for the run in period. I don't see how this was self inflicted. Also the car was not getting redlined / killed. I was revving it more than I had been but nothing stupid.

Basically going by what you guys are saying about mapping etc. I would say the blame is on RCM for advising me incorrectly about setup. I know I will get knowhere with them and I will have to repair off out of my own pocket.

StickyMicky

seen plenty of painters take a car for a spin, hell even MY scooby was taken out when it was booked in for a paintjob around 5 years back, the gaffer let it slip that it was nippy

M7STN

Car was 100% not driven whilst into the painters. It drove in and drove out.

stevie1982

iTrader: (16)

in my opinion if you were advised by rcm that it could be driven on the original map then they are at fault but are you 100% sure on that and that they did not mean a base map for the 2.5ltr as i have already said i have spoke with API, subaru 4 you, engine tuner and bob rawle and they all stated that a base map would NEED to be put on as if not it would end in te same result you have had.

if they did advise you it would be ok then unless you have it in writting on email or recorded phone call i doubt you will have any luck proving it so i think you will have to take it as a lesson learnt and i am quite shocked that they woul dhave told you that as i have heard nothing but good things about them in the past.

i feel for you though and hope you have some luck with them atleast supplying you new parts.

eggy790

iTrader: (20)

they may have advised run in period would be ok on 2.0 map.. but correct me if im wrong.. when running in, you drive off boost? so maybe they wasnt expecting some on boost driving by yourself.

not sure, but i'd feel so guttted if it was me in your position, really feel for you.

hope it gets sorted

gpssti4

iTrader: (6)

Rather than speculate - what have RCM got to say about it?

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

I am absolutely convinced that RCM would NEVER advise that the above specification would work at all on a standard map. I know them well and their attention to detail is better than many. It is so far off the specification of the original WRX map that any tuner worth his salt would not even let you fit the STi heads and cams without a map on a 2.0 let alone a 2.5.

Without mapping straight off from day one, that engine was doomed.

David APi

hux309

Have to agree, fitting a 2.5 without a remap is suicide, you at least needed a base map just to get things going, ideally mapped at intervals during the run in process when the engine can better handle higher boost levels.

Like david says you're going have to chalk it up to experience, rcms are highly regarded id be very surprised they would advise you to run in with the 2.0 ecu they probably assumed you had the sense to fit a 2.5 ecu along with the lump, they have better knock control so at least would have gone into limp mode if something bad was going on.

Best of luck in getting it all sorted though, don't crank the engine any more and hope the crank is fine to be reused.

nampahc01

Someone explain this quote?

how can ignition timing be way different? ignition timing is taken from the crank sensor so it knows where the engine is on its cycle etc. you use the same pulleys timing belt heads cams etc from a 2.0l.

also whats the point in running all this sensors on an engine if you still have to map the ecu. surely all the sensor can give live input to the ecu which can in turn change the out put to suit fueling revs etc.

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

If only it were that easy, what a different world of tuning Subaru's there would be................

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

The cam and crank sensors do indeed tell the ECU where the engine is in its cycle, but they don't give any clue as to when the correct time is to fire the spark. Imagine knowing you have an appointment you know you have to keep, but don't know when it is - having a wristwatch really doesn't help that much...

I have sometimes wondered the extent to which an ECU could self-learn, by monitoring the signals from the MAF, lambda and knock sensors. It could probably do a reasonable job of working out how to cruise safely in closed-loop mode, but as soon as you put your foot down and it goes open-loop, the ECU just has to know what the right fuelling and ignition parameters are. Get it wrong, and bang.

nampahc01

pray tell me how motorbikes can manage to do all this and have done for the last god knows how long. they dnt require mapping everytime you go to the toilet. just can't see why subarus have to be so fussy. but you say putting the foot down well then it takes a reading from the map sensor noticing the difference in intake pressure adjust fuel accordingly. not rocket science. even an induction kit people reckon you need a re map or de cat. how come no other vehicle blows up when doing this but a scooby will if you dnt map it.

learnt my lesson with an impreza and would never buy another one if i was given it for free. sorry scooby lovers