Rich Groves

I watched the new burning rubber video as there was a P1 and Evo 6 on test.I wondered how he would find the P1 and at the end of the video he crashes on to the grass.

Now I have heard people saying about the old subaru curse of lift off oversteer on several crashes.On the video it does seem like this happened.

Anyway if anyone saw the end clips you might know if this was a case of the above.

Is this lift off oversteer something to worry about!

Rich

Kempo

Rich, though by comparison a novice on this board and scooby owner for only 18 months, there are many examples, posts and photos of lift off oversteer.

Check out

RichS

Doesn't Tiff handbrake turn that P1 in the vid?

I think he does - does the P1 have a lockable diff?

Rich

Rich Groves

Hi Kempo,

Personally I have never had to much of a problem but I thought I would post this for new P1 and Subaru owners.

I had an accident in a P1 not caused by this but I have heard of quiet a few accidents in which P1,s have been involved.Obviously if you are going to fast into a bend you will tend to take your foot off the gas and fault owners should know this can lead to a bad situation.

Anyone know if a Evo6 has this problem.

Rich

SteveB

iTrader: (1)

Hmm.

Personally, I love this aspect of the cars handling. Go a bit too quickly into a bend and you can use this to your advantage in that with the back end stepping out a bit the front will tighten it's line and get you through the bend. A technique that once mastered, gives very fast progress through the twisty stuff, especailly in the wet.

On the other hand, if you go into a bend way too fast, there ain't anything thats going to get you round. Just blaiming the lift off oversteer is easy and doesn't cause any personal embarrasment for driving like a prat.

Ssteve.

SDB

Hi Chaps

All cars exhibit some form of lift-off oversteer. Scoobs often get tarred with the brush of a MAD lift-off-oversteering killing machine, but this is not the case...

the real truth is that the cars are so good when on the power that the transition from this to normal lift off oversteer is huge.

AWD cars *in general* suffer more than all other types with lift off oversteer.

LOOS is also a very very good friend to the handling agility of a scoob, it could not make it through dalby forest with quite the same efficiency without it. It's just that you need to be able to control it.

The problem comes when people think they are the king of the road, based on their ability to control the car when on power (which becomes increbibly easy). So people rocket off through the countryside thinking they have it all sorted, then need to lift-off mid bend or hit the brakes.. all the weight moves to the front tyres, the rears lose grip while the fronts gain it in and ends swap.

LOOS is a normal trate. Controlling it requires skill.

The P1 certainly does not (IMHO) suffer from any unreasonable amount of LOOS, in fact it is probably the most balanced standard impreza released so far. I would also venture to say, the easiest to drive fast.

Now... On to Tiff!!!...
I won't go there! LOL

All the best

Simon

Josh L

I would not only agree with Simon, though from a less knowlegable position, but would also testify to the difficulty he had in getting my P1 out of shape around Bruntingthorpe.

Although I was too much of a wuss to let him cane it, Simon repeatedly said how well 'sorted' the car was. A fact made even more obvious when he took me out in a 22B soon after.

I love my P1's handling, and actually find it far more stable, and more difficult to unsettle, than my previous MY98.

But it's all subjective anyway.

Josh

johnfelstead

LOOS, love it.

I have been known to sleep in one after a heavy night out too. LOL

SteveB

iTrader: (1)

Talking into "the big white telephone" ?

Done it many times.

Steve.

EvilBevel

John & Steve, I think I just have wet myself with those 2 posts. Big white telephone ... incredibly funny LOL

Sad thing is: this is a serious thread, and if you ever doubt this lift off oversteery thingy again: go to the Wetter The Better course, and you will never forget to see things in perspective again.

Lift off oversteer really means (unless provoked): "I have no f*cking clue just how fast I could take this corner. So I weaseled out mid corner. Thank you. <bows>"

Shame, this myth really, because the Impreza is probably one of the most forgiving cars I drove (and OK, I'm not experienced). Try some of this stuff in an Evo V.

Mike@PD

Simon is right and I must tell you that if you did not get lift off oversteer on road cars, most of you would not get out of the dodgy situations you all too often find yourselves in.....

Although smooth is fast, those of you who were watching me instruct Bob Garner (Renrag) at Elvington may have mistaken some of the instruction time as being very ragged! What we were actually doing is dealing with this very subject and familiarising Bob in the art of using more throttle control and less steering to deal with understeer into lift off oversteer situations. More often than not its the drivers tendency to over react that causes crisis in these situations. Properly harnessed, its a great dynamic !

PS Kempo - If you think that he's a good driver you need to think again. He always goes off and any wakner can make power slide videos on 3 miles of clear runway. I lost my rag once and threw down a gauntlet with Top Gear. I wont go into it but needless to say that they didn't rise to the challenge.

[This message has been edited by Mike@PD (edited 02 February 2001).]

Kempo

Mike, I agree with your comments about Tiff with 3 mile wide runways and power slides - besides, if Mike Brewer from driven can do them they can't be that difficult!

But Tiff has had a crack at the touring cars for Nissan at Brands and didn't do that bad, plus he teamed up in the British GT championship in the penultimate race and came a credible 2nd!
(then agin, the championship leader was giving him a fair bit of space on the road as he didn't want to be punted off!).

I guess it's a qustion of practice makes perfect - I just envy all of them for some of the machinery they get there hands on.

stage 1

Was there not some sort of power slide competition held in one of the magazines a while back - a mag like evo or something like that?
Who won that? Think it was a test driver but my mind is very vague........hehe well I do drive a cossie

Martin

Blue6

The Autocar handling chalenge was won by one of the Lotus handling guys. What was also interesting was that Simon De Banke's buddy Don Palmer from the wetter the better course that everyone reckons is the bees knees lost the M Coupe, spun it and nearly wiped out some spectators. What made it worse was that he tried to make excuses. Considering his aleged abilities the Autocar boys were less than positive about him!!

johnfelstead

We all make mistakes on occasion, or are you perfect?

Don Palmer certainly knows how to drive, as does Simon De Bonkers. I learned a lot from Don so i am not keen on seeing him slagged because of one incedent.

I dont think tiff can drive for $hit. I have seen him in action many times and he drives like an amateur. As Mario Andretti would put it, he is busy at the wheel. He is always sawing away like mad, the really good drivers hardly move the steering wheel at all. I am always in tears, pissing myself when i see him trying to take a car to the limit because it's so not in control it's funny. I Even have a video of him driving my westfield for top gear when it was new and only 220BHP (my car was the factory press car), he couldnt even powerslide that in the wet under control, very poor.

If Don had hit any spectators, all i can say is stupid spectators. They shouldnt be stood anywhere near the test area. Its like blaming a WRC driver for hitting a spectator after going off. If you are stood in a stupid possition its your fault, not the drivers.

EvilBevel

Mr. Blue, always great to see someone slag somebody off in their first post.

Very cred' and all that.

I hope you use better judgement in other areas than you do with your cr*p post. Because according to your logic, every driver that has ever lost it is a bad driver...

Bad news for people like Mr. Burns, Mr. Schumacher etc ...

Daryl

JF - So it's OK to slag off Tiff Needell, but not Don Palmer?

I think it's best not to slag off anyone, because it just makes you look bad (or jealous ).

johnfelstead

hmmmmmm, good point! LOL

Tiff still cant drive for $hit. LOL

SDB

Oh dear! Look where this ones going again! lol

Re: Sideways Challenge...
Don did a dreadful job on the day. He is the first to admit it. But at least he had a go!! Many of the drivers just aimed to make it round, Don was going for broke and really giving it some stick. We need to remember, that this is a small selection of some of the very best drivers *in the world*. Don's forte is in coaching, rather than actually driving, and this is something he is staggeringly good at (IMHO one of the very best).

I am proud to say that I've been invited to take part this year and will be flying the flag for ScoobyNet. Last would be bad though and I can't coach, so I have no excuses!!

Re: Tiff..
John really is bang on the money I'm affraid. I know it's easy to slag people off, but Tiff gets so much praise from so many misguided people it becomes funny! He is a fabulous presenter (IMHO) and superb entertainment to watch if you just want some car abuse, he REALLY (i promise) does not display a very high level of car contrl..

Racing is different. It is clear that he has *something*, as he has an intermittently successful track record. Bare in mind though that he has had a LOT of non-finished also.

best regards

Simon

Blue6

John Felstead, I was only relaying the comments made by certain people at the Autocar day. Mr Palmer was all chat prior to the event, and then nearly caused a very serious accident. What I also forgot to mention was that he actually smashed the front end in. Your comments relating to 'stupid spectators' are unfounded as you are obviously unaware of the circumstances surrounding this accident. Evil Bevil, I am not slagging someone off, just commenting on an incident that took place. I am sorry that from such a comment you have all taken such offence. Freedom of speech and all that!

johnfelstead

Simple fact mr blue.

All the drivers, Don Included, were driving the car to the limit and beyond.

If spectators were stood anywhere near this test and in a position a car could end up no matter what the circumstances, that makes them stupid. It also shows a very poor culture of safety by the organisors.

You can't argue with that, you dont have to be there to apreciate this fact.

Mike@PD

The issues do get crossed. Tiff the racing driver and Tiff the presenter. My problem is that Tiff the presenter is far more widely known and Top Gear has a huge impact on how the public perceive things. Due to this, Subaru and Evos along with Z BMWs are thought to be owned solely by hooligans. When he did a feature to establish what was the best handling car across the board, he came up with a Z3! WHAT.........

What he actually meant was that in a wide open space it was huge fun with its tail happy dynamics and high power output however he misled the public into believing that it was 'the' car to own. My concerns are that existing owners believe what this Tiff racing driver guy says and then they go try to kill themselves on the road. I challenged him to do the same tests against the clock in an environment lined by trees, ditches and other hard roadside furniture. No reply was the answer I got which clearly speaks for itself. If Top Gear is to become more credible, it has to decide which way to go! Personally Im not bothered as I think its on the way out as far as popular tv goes but it used to be excellent and compulsive viewing.

All too often we hear those words of Tiffs.

Ohh Im up to second and now to catch him up if I can....... Ohh out of shape but managed to hold on......The power of this car is ammmmmaaaazzzzzzzzzzzziiiiinnnngg CRASH.

He then returns someones pride and joy twised and bent then walks off. I find this truely incredible.

Remember, no matter what you drive or where you drive it:-

To Finish First - First You Have To Finish! It Is Far Better To Be Five Minute Late In This Life Than Five Minutes Early Into The Next !

[This message has been edited by Mike@PD (edited 04 February 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Mike@PD (edited 04 February 2001).]

Blue6

John Felstead, despite the fact that several of the countries top motoring hacks had this opinion of Mr P AND the fact that no-one else caused such mayhem, despite some being less experienced, he still dropped a big gooly. All I'm saying is that you're not able to make a constructive comment, as you were'nt there, and did'nt witness it.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree!

johnfelstead

So he made a mistake, big deal. Like i said before no one is perfect.

I really dont understand how you can attack someone for nearly hitting spectators. They simply shouldnt be in a position where being hit was even a tiny posibility.

i guess we will have to disagree on this.

I hope the rest of your posts on this BBS are more possitive in nature. It's very easy to be negative, it takes knowledge and thought to provide something positive though. Do you think you are up to that?

Blue6

JohnFelstead, I was not aware you were the Chief exec. of the Don Palmer appreciation society. Sorry my comments are not 'positive' enough for you. Let me try again.

"Don Palmer I am not worthy" Any better?

I did'nt realise this exclusive forum was only open to people who made positive comments about your buddies. I am quiet able to be positive where required. Perhaps you should try being more objective?

johnfelstead

no disrespect mr/mrs/miss/mizz? chester, but i find it stagering that your first attempts of contributing to a BBS are all negative and dont understand some basic common sense safety advice.

I would have thought that someone who is responsible for a business of your nature would understand the importance of a safety culture.

You can be both negative and positive about people and their actions, but you seem to be trying to turn one incedent into something bigger than it was. I dont understand this aproach.

Like i said before, and i will repeat. If spectators are in a position where they could be injured if ANYTHING went wrong then there is something wrong with the safety standards there.

I think i have a history of being very objective about things on this BBS. You certainly dont yet.

Have fun on scoobynet, i hope you learn from it.

Blue6

Mr F, last words I hope, whilst I am not commenting on your objectivity on other matters, on this occasion you are being very blinkered. You are stating that your opinion on an events safety is more accurate than Autocar magazines and those present at the venue.

Once again you were not there!!

I also find it perplexing that you deem it necessary to pass comment on my understanding of safety matters rather than discuss in an adult fashion the issue I orignally commented on.

I would suggest it is your goodself who has something to learn.

Blue6

Simon De Banke

My e-mail is a problem at the moment. I'll drop you a line tomorrow.

EvilBevel

QUOTE]<B>"Don Palmer I am not worthy" Any better?</B>[/QUOTE]

Nope. Keep trying.

Added to make this less of a potshot: Mr Blue, can't speak for JF, but I would expect that most people introduce themselves in their first post.

I know, this is just a BBS and all that, but I suppose you would not barge in to a bar, and start off with bringing forward some pretty negative comments. Comments that are also a bit besides the point, and are offensive in nature. "Simon de Banke's buddy ... ?" What does that mean. That we all protect Mr Palmer because we fear "da webmaster". We were all bribed ? Brainwashed to find Mr. Palmer a top driver ?

Even if he couldn't drive a moped, I do know first hand that his courses are excellent BTW. You seem to want to stress the "you were not there" point. Can I assume you have never followed his course ?

Oh, never mind. Let me put it in shorthand:

When someone, in his first post, makes a very negative comment about someone, they might possibly have an axe to grind. I pointed that out to you. Responding with "free speech" is just adding hysterisis &lt;sp&gt; to it.

Theo van Daele

PS: what's your name BTW ?

[This message has been edited by EvilBevel (edited 04 February 2001).]

Blue6

Theo, Thanks for your comments. Before this degenerates into a bar room brawl can I just make one point. My comments apertaining to Don Palmer were primarily due to the fact that you were happy to make comments regarding other drivers abilities i.e. Tif N. I was merely trying to balance out this with some comments that were made about Don Palmer. I thought the whole purpose of this forum was to allow everyone to say their bit, new or not? John Chester