elondan

Hello,
> I was looking to renew my subscription, but now I'm not so sure I want to,
> and apparently I'm not the only Impreza owner who thinks this way (
> http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=69308 shows you what
> SIDC thinks of you).
> I really liked your magazine, hot news, interesting road tests, good long
> term tests (although too short term average 15K miles isn't enough). but
> then came the long awaited STI, you gave it 4 stars and called it the best
> Impreza yet??? if its the best Impreza and it got only 4 stars (like an
> Audi A3, you really think the S3 scores the same? or a Fiat coupe? or a
> C-class sport coupe?) I take it as an insult to the Impreza community and
> myself, also how come the WRX got 5 stars if the STi got only 4??
> And after this test came another insult, 23 January 2002, "Evolution of
> the species" by Steve Sutcliffe, the writer admits he is an Evo lover and
> also writes the dislike between the Evo camp and the Impreza's is an
> irrational one, quote:"Choosing between Evo and Impreza has become a bit
> like the Blur versus Oasis battle the tabloids dreamt up a few years back.
> Inadvertently you find yourself coming down firmly in one camp or the
> other and end up feeling entirely irrational dislike for the 'opposition'
> as a result. I'm ashamed to admit that I'm a bit like this with Imprezas
> in that I simply prefer the Evo way of life..." , so how can I take
> anything he writes about the Impreza seriously and why do you guys let him
> test the STI?
> The STI, is without a doubt one of the best cars (if not the best) to
> come to your market.
> its cheaper than its rivals (with the difference you can buy a Prodrive
> performance pack and make it faster, better and stay with change), almost
> as fast as its rivals, blends both cornering ability and everyday life
> comfort, unlike the Evo VII needs oil change only every 12,000 mile (and
> not 4,500).
> Too bad you became England's Impreza bashing magazine( to give the same
> price S3 4 stars like the STI????<<File: ATT88060.gif>&gt
> Yours
> Ehud Karassik
> Israel.

and Autocar's answer:

Ehud

Thanks for your note - sorry for the tardiness of my reply.

To respond to your points:

* I'm sorry Subaru owners feel that Autocar is "Impreza bashing" - but
there is no bias towards Evos on this magazine. I'm not so sure if the same
can be said about the members of the SIDC...
* We gave the STi four stars because of the price premium over the
WRX. It might be the better car, but the WRX's price/performance combo
netted it five stars. This is the way we judge all our road test cars, from
Smarts to supercars - value for money and fitness for purpose. Yes, an Audi
S3 scored the same number of stars. But I'm sure you'll agree it's a very
different sort of car to the Impreza.
* I think you'll find our long-term test of the Impreza (19/26
December 2001) was over 30,000 miles, not 15 as you state, and the most
comprehensive published anywhere in the world. Ditto our long-term tests on
two Imprezas we previously ran.
* Steve Sutcliffe is a professional writer with 15 years' experience.
Therefore, when he gets into a car to perform a road test, he leaves his
preconceptions outside of it. Why should he be biased and members of the
SIDC - who, let's face it, own Imprezas - not? Do you really think they are
more qualified to pass judgement on the relative merits of the Impreza as he
is? (For the record, he didn't write the four-star road test on the STi).

To conclude, we are NOT biased against the Impreza STi - we just write what
we find. If that upsets people, then I'm sorry - but then again, you can't
please all of the people, all of the time.

Don't forget that Autocar was the first magazine ever to put the Impreza
Turbo on its cover - in the days before some of our rivals and most of our
readership even knew it existed - and our respect for the car and Subaru as
a car maker is undiminished. End of story.

Regards
Rob Aherne

Rob Aherne
Editor
Autocar
60 Waldegrave Road
Teddington
Middlesex TW11 8LG
Tel: 020 8267 5663
Fax: 020 8267 5759
Mob: 07768 711630
E-mail: rob.aherne@haynet.com

Silent Monkey

Care to explain how any thread on Scoobynet could ever possibly show what the SIDC think of Autocar.

elondan

I mixed the titles, but he is not stupid he saw the link is to the Scoobynet BBS.
if anyone at SIDC was hurt by my mistake I apologize.

stevie c

I have had a chat with these gentlemen too!

Last year they done an article on which scoob to buy,they used Adams at Aylesbury for their subjects,mine was the red one that they said to steer well clear of because it had a Power Engineering sticker on the air box!

I got in touch to tell them that my car was great and I haggled a good deal,and left a VERY happy customer.Thier reply was basically a 'well done' with a 'dont cry when it breaks' between the lines!

Oh,well!Who cares anyway,I'm still happy 10 months on!

Smiling Stevie

Neil Smalley

I'm puzzled

If price was such an issue, so that it docked one star off why did'nt they mention it in the review? Price was never mentioned as a downside! Also if price was such an issue then why give it a title saying 'Best Impreza ever'? Why not 'Best Impreza ever! - At a price!'

Also it relates to the S3 as a different type of car? So why did they compare the WRX to an S3 last year? Will the Evo 7 be docked a star in the comparison test between it and the UK STi because it's 5K more expensive?

How do they work out their 'star ratings' anyway? Determine value for money? Determine fit for purpose? If you're not going to compare, based on price and performance(easily measurable) but on etherial's such as value for money and fit for purpose you should at least create catagories of cars and mention those catagories in the review so we, the readers know what they are comparing against.

Giving any car a 'star' rating is bound to be contentious, as it's very subjective. Evo had the right idea with it's EPR rating(where'd that go?) but even then it was flawed.

One persons dream car, might be anothers nightmare. So the only real way to tell is to have a proper test drive of all the options and find out for yourself.

I can believe autocar were the first mag to put an impreza on the front cover, they probably did it before Subaru had even completed the design of the actual car..

Dave T-S

I read Autocar every week. I take notice of what I want to and ignore the bits I do not. Any opinion stated is that of the writer alone, and they are possibly objective and possibly subjective. Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I don't.

I do not think that Autocar are silly enough to think that anything more than a sweeping generalisation has been made - i'm sure not all SIDC members hate them - I don't.

I read the article, but I have to confess my main interest was what the blue black mica colour looked like as that's what i've ordered!

At the end of the day, does it really matter? Buy what car YOU want, and if someone doesn't like it, so what? If you aren't even intending to buy an STi, then whatever Autocar write about it is totally irrelevant - they haven't stopped us ordering two!

PS - you also got your facts wrong - Sutcliffe didn't write the article/long term mileage was 30,000 - so in all honesty how can you expect Autocar to treat you with any more credibility than you accuse them of not having?

I am not having a go at you, it's your time and you can write whatever you like to magazines - but, does it really matter? - life's too short.....



[Edited by Dave T-S - 2/10/2002 6:53:25 PM]

Chins

Autocar also reckon the MY03 will be facelifted. As we know thats crap as well.

Great letter to them, and crap answer. Sutcliffe is probably on a retainer from someone !!. I think they messed up the star ratings, but are not man enough to admit it. If cost is the issue, then the EVO should be 3 stars .

Jonathan

Sadman

When will you lot get it into your thick heads that car ownership and preference will always be a subjective matter.

The fact that I think the Scoob is the best car I've ever driven is just that, my opinion. It may be that it suits what I want from a car. It may be that I havn't driven the car that I may find is better.

By the same token thousands of people buy MPV's (which I hate) and also off-road style 4x4's which never will. Nevertheless that does not make their choices invalid just that they want something different from a car, whether it's practicality, image or whatever.

Because a magazine does not agree with your opinion does not make the magazine wrong.

Because someone prefers an Evo to a Scoob does not make them wrong. I can't even offer my opinion on this 'cos I've never driven an Evo.

So please can we get off these 'my cars better than your car' rants once and for all.

High horse mode now off.

elondan

Dave TS said:
[qoute]you also got your facts wrong - Sutcliffe didn't write the article/long term mileage was 30,000 - so in all honesty how can you expect Autocar to treat you with any more credibility than you accuse them of not having?[/quote]

but I wrote:
[qoute]And after this test came another insult, 23 January 2002, "Evolution of
> the species" by Steve Sutcliffe, the writer admits he is an Evo lover and
> also writes the dislike between the Evo camp and the Impreza's is an
> irrational one, quote:"Choosing between Evo and Impreza has become a bit
> like the Blur versus Oasis battle the tabloids dreamt up a few years back.
> Inadvertently you find yourself coming down firmly in one camp or the
> other and end up feeling entirely irrational dislike for the 'opposition'
> as a result. I'm ashamed to admit that I'm a bit like this with Imprezas
> in that I simply prefer the Evo way of life..." , so how can I take
> anything he writes about the Impreza seriously and why do you guys let him
> test the STI?
[/quote]
where does it say he wrote the 30,000 miles test?

Dave T-S

Elondan

From Autocar's reply to you:

I wasn't saying Sutcliffe wrote the long term test - merely that Autocar said you got the long term mileage wrong.

I am not looking to get into a detailed dialogue with you about this - merely saying is it important whether Autocar like the STi7 or not?

elondan

I don't care if they like the Evo better, but if they want me to buy the magazine they need to give me better reasons why they don't like the STI!!
They give the STI 4 stars???
They say you got to drive the STI really hard to do better pace than an Audi Quattro, but not so in the Evo? you want to tell me the Audi is closer to the STI than the STI to the Evo? no way!!
it sounds like they use every chance to bash the STI.
like the Evo better for all I care, but give the STI the respect it deserves (like Top gear and "evo" give it).
and my remark about the long term tests was in general, the Impreza is the unusal test.

Dave T-S

Elondan
If you owned an EVO, you'd think Autocar was wonderful......!

Who says the EVO isn't better? Maybe it is! As an Impreza driver, I don't care!

Be happy with what you have, and recognise that there are 6 billion people on this planet, and sometimes we aren't going to have the same opinions

elondan

Like I said I don't care if they like the Evo better but why bash the STI?

AllanB

I don't think giving it 4 stars is bashing it is it ?


AllanB

clarence

I think the argument of Lancer vs Impreza is rather unnecessary, as both are great cars and the preference for either of them depend on ur taste - the Lancer for those who want uncompromising performance and the Impreza for those who want performance as well as refinement. The Lancer is quicker than any STi from A to B (just watch any BM videos and u'll know), but u need to be very skillful to get the best out of an Evo.
We should applaud the fact that Sutcliffe stated his preference publicly, rather than hiding it. If you read between the lines, he seemed to want this war between pro-Lancer and pro-Impreza ppl to stop, as it's rather stupid. I read both articles on the STi and they praised the STi on many counts. I think Autocar expects their readers to read the whole roadtest rather than just the number of stars. Maybe the comment on the number of stars is a more accurate reflection on the rating of the car.
I think it's very hard to remove the subjectiveness of roadtests, after all, everyone have their own preferences. I don't think it would make a very good read if we follow the American way of roadtesting, by concentrating on objective measurements i.e. using cornering g-forces to say whether a car is good or not. U cannot describe steering feel with numbers. I'm always shocked by some US magazines when they say some versions of the Toyota Camry are rather sporty.
Lets enjoy what we have now, and I'm sure that without the Lancer, the Impreza would not have developed into what it is today, and vice-versa. I would buy one of each if I have enough money.

Neil Smalley

It's not the Evo Vs Scoob thing I think people were getting confused or riled at. It's the fact that Autocar seemed to praise it to the hilt, only to give it a lesser rating than the 'lesser' model which got a higher rating.

They then send a letter saying 'it's about the price and how effective it is at what it sets out to do. When clearly the roadtest shows that it scores highly on both price and practicality(see my previous post).

The whole thing smells of a fob off, which I guess is fine but in doing so they are losing the respect of a lot of readers.

BTW I'm not anti Evo. I followed an Evo 7 the other day. Wonderful car, just (for me) too expensive to run.

Mungo

Well I think Razzle is a crap car mag - they don't even have any pictures of cars....Or write-ups...Although there's usually a couple of stars on the cover...

gregh

>> Autocar also reckon the MY03 will be facelifted. As we know thats crap as well.


Do we? I've not seen anything concrete either way?

greg

Edward Vincent Osgood

It really detracts from the driving experiemce of the Impreza that the car only got 4 stars.

You will probably think that your cars are now soiled and will have to go out and sell them immediately.

I suspect the Autocar editor now thinks that some Impreza drivers are even more conceited than he first thought.

Sad or what?!?

Just drive your cars and enjoy them!

Slag me off for this, just ask me if I care or not.
Ed.

ChrisB

Anyone know when Autocar first had a Scooby on the cover? First time I saw one was on the cover of Carweek.

astraboy

Now now ed, play nice.
astraboy.

scottdg

Have to say that in all the time I've read Autocar (18yrs). They have been the magazine that appears to take sides with a particular manufacturer/vehicle.
Remember the Countach/Testarossa clashes, M6 vs 560SEC AMG vs XJS V12 vs 911, GTi this vs GTi that, GTiR vs Cosworth battles of old. They always seemed to have their favourites which got rated time and time again just above the competition.
And, more often than not they contradicted the views of rival magazines such as Fast Lane, PC, Car, Evo (more recently).
personally, I don't have a problem with it as this makes for interesting reading on a monthly basis when taken in addition to the EVO, Car, Jap performance and Banzai mags I also buy.
I must however question their reasoning behind some of the opinions they give. When the motoring majority are for, Autocar more often than not is against.

Keeps their profile up I suppose?!

PAUL GEE

ChrisB,
Autocar featured the Impreza Turbo in the 6th April 1994 Issue.
It was photographed with the Carlos Sainz car of the day. It made the front cover. They loved it to bits!!!
I remember this because I later bought the actual car from K.T.Greens in Yorkshire. Ahh, happy days....
(leaving with the anorak rather sharpish)
Paul.

elondan

Stef,
I never said I was repersenting the SIDC, all I said was that I wasn't the only Impreza owner to think this way, and I attached a link to a Scoobynet thread and mixed the SIDC with Scoobynet, and anyone with brains could have seen its a link to the Scoobynet.
(I won't be surprised if some of the people in the thread are even SIDC members.)
I think your assault on me using the BBS is uncalled for you could have written to me via e-mail and I would have gladly written another e-mail to Rob straighting everything out.
I'll still write the e-mail if it worry you.

elondan

My second letter to Rob from Autocar:
"Hello,
Thank you for your reply, although I wasn't convinced it did show me you people at Autocar care.
I would like to state out a mistake I made in the original letter, when I stated that my views are shared with the SIDC I meant other Impreza owners in the Scoobynet BBS and not the SIDC.
I hope your relationship with the SIDC will stay as they were before.
Thank you.
Ehud Karassik."

ChrisB

Cheers Paul. Found my copy of Carweek which is dated 20th April 1994.

Carlos The Jackel

Why are Suburu owners on this thread so obsessed with what "other" people think! Grow up!!! This is Ima territory!!!!!

NBW

Autocar road tested the Impreza Turbo on 6th April 1994.

Don't think that there is any particular bias at Autocar against any car, including Impreza's, it just that their scoring system is applied inconsistently.

As others have said, the rating is not consistent with the words.

Tim

jeremy

I think it is so hilarious that Autocar are so quick to pat themselves on the back- as if they actually produce well thought out complete road tests. NOT. Anyone of any intelligence who has ever read any journal from any field will know how two devices can be compared. The fact is their road tests are like minimalist art- no methodology what-so-ever. Pure stream of conscious drivel. I think it would be great to work for their publication- as I could write articles, just as I used to write term-papers in high-school, between 2 and 4 am sunday morning.

Neil Smalley

Just dug the road test out.
"It IS a better car than the standard WRX Impreza, Even taking price into account"

As for the Evo VII, there's not a road tester amoung us who'd rather not drive the extrondinary Mitisbishi. But to buy and leave with, year after year? As an only car it would have to be the cheaper, more pragmatic and effective Subaru.

Is it me or does the above sound like they think it's superb value for money(the price bit and fit for purpose (is'nt that what pragmatic means). Or maybe the above is veteran journalist speak for apsolute ripoff and is useless at what it's supposed to do

It's really no skin off my nose if it only gets 4 not 5 stars but what does irk is for a reason to be given that does not hold any water against the actual road test printed. It's like a company giving you the fob off, even though you know they're making it up and they know they're making it up.

If anyone feels like mailing them again, quote the article to them; then let the fun fly

[/b]


[Edited by Neil Smalley - 2/10/2002 6:52:22 PM]