Kevin Jackson (R.I.P). Why??????
03 January 2002, 01:42 PM
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With all the respect in the World to his family. Why the hell did he chase the thieves??? Ok. he was a very big guy,6.4 feet. But as many people on this forum would agree. If you get the chance phone the Police first. Then get as much info as possible,maybe even photos.
But trying to stop them is always going to be tricky. Doesnt matter how big or handy you are. If it goes against you, you could be in the same situation.....
Lets hope the murderers get caught and the legal system does not let them off easly.
Dim queen
[Edited by Dim Queen - 03/01/2002 13:46:19]
But trying to stop them is always going to be tricky. Doesnt matter how big or handy you are. If it goes against you, you could be in the same situation.....
Lets hope the murderers get caught and the legal system does not let them off easly.
Dim queen
[Edited by Dim Queen - 03/01/2002 13:46:19]
03 January 2002, 01:57 PM
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I'm the same height and about 16 odd stone, first reaction would be to give chase, but I'm all mouth and no trousers, so would probably just shout a bit.
It's a $hitty world we live in when stuff like this happens. as you say, hope the buggers go down and become some big guys bitch, if you know what I mean.
It's a $hitty world we live in when stuff like this happens. as you say, hope the buggers go down and become some big guys bitch, if you know what I mean.
03 January 2002, 02:27 PM
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This is a dreadful situation and my heart and sympathies go out to his family and friends.
Firstly, what a brave and courageous man he was!
I would like to think i would have the guts do the same.
I hope that hang the b@st@rds who did this. I would!
Firstly, what a brave and courageous man he was!
I would like to think i would have the guts do the same.
I hope that hang the b@st@rds who did this. I would!
03 January 2002, 03:17 PM
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I have to admit, despite being much smaller than Kevin Jackson, I would probably have given chase as well. But, if confronted with a screwdriver wielding car thief, I would have backed off immediately. There are too many people willing to take someones life for a mobile phone (19 year old girl in N.London was shot in the head for her mobile phone yesterday) let alone a car. These scumbags stabbed Kevin Jackson in the head 5 times!
I hope the car thieving community grass up these scumbags and they rot in hell.
I hope the car thieving community grass up these scumbags and they rot in hell.
03 January 2002, 04:04 PM
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Just want to add my [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] at this and sympathy for his family and kids 
I hope the scumbags that did this rot in hell [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
I'd probably not be able to stop myself going after someone messing about with my car but will have to try and think twice after reading this. Either that or get a shotgun and shoot the fu(kers. But that would be too good for them...
My thoughts are with his family at what must be a terrible time for them
I hope the scumbags that did this rot in hell [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
I'd probably not be able to stop myself going after someone messing about with my car but will have to try and think twice after reading this. Either that or get a shotgun and shoot the fu(kers. But that would be too good for them...
My thoughts are with his family at what must be a terrible time for them
03 January 2002, 04:57 PM
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Just every one know what is being discussed this link may help
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/...00/1740253.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/...00/1740253.stm
Trending Topics
03 January 2002, 06:55 PM
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My thoughts with the family obviously.
And it only goes to reiterate what the police say "Don't confront"
The news reports state that the victim was stabbed with a "Screwdriver type implement"
The assailant probably took it to use on the ignition lock and panicked when confronted.
And it only goes to reiterate what the police say "Don't confront"
The news reports state that the victim was stabbed with a "Screwdriver type implement"
The assailant probably took it to use on the ignition lock and panicked when confronted.
03 January 2002, 07:05 PM
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This had shocked me.
When will the law, the governement, the people who run this country, realise? This type of 'scum' are just not frightened anymore of what might happen to them ... WHEN CAUGHT.
There's just not a hard enough deterrent anymore to make these idiots think twice.
My heart goes out to the family.
J.
When will the law, the governement, the people who run this country, realise? This type of 'scum' are just not frightened anymore of what might happen to them ... WHEN CAUGHT.
There's just not a hard enough deterrent anymore to make these idiots think twice.
My heart goes out to the family.
J.
03 January 2002, 07:10 PM
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...my 2 Euros worth...
Firstly my sympathies to this fella's friends and family.
As for open debate:
...in the heat of the moment and in blind rage and anger what would you do?
Exactly what this poor ****** did I would hope...
I'm waiting for scoobynets do-gooders to come out from under their rocks and slate people off for trying to protect their own property...
The "violence never solves anything" brigade **** me off time and time again - people work damned hard to have nice cars, nice homes and decent kit for their families. Then what happens? Some little sh1tbag slimes out of their council estate and helps themselves to whatever they want...and the law seldom gives them its full weight.
.. every so often, however, they get what they deserve...a damn good beating, yet often the innocent victim becomes the baddie - look what happened to Tony Martin when he shot the little w4nker who had robbed his house 4 times previously... he got send down for it. The fact that we, in the UK, are not allowed to protect ourselves from scum, leaves us wide open to theft/rape/murder and this will be the case until the law changes. Compare this to the U.S where controlled and licensed firearms are allowed to be used to protect human life and property: the per capita levels of burgulary and car theft are lower than here. I, for one, know where I would rather be. I have been the victim of violent theft in 2001 and what did I do?
I clubbed 7 shades out of the pikey scum with the hammer that he started on me with... when the police turned up they carted him off and let me carry on with work. The CCTV footage proved self defence - had I been at home and not in the shop,where it would have been his word against mine I dunno what would have happened. I am not a violent person but its unreal what the human body and mind does when faced with attack... so, for those who would say they'd leave thieves and not challenge them, I doubt it, I doubt it very much.
[/structured debate off]
Firstly my sympathies to this fella's friends and family.
As for open debate:
...in the heat of the moment and in blind rage and anger what would you do?
Exactly what this poor ****** did I would hope...
I'm waiting for scoobynets do-gooders to come out from under their rocks and slate people off for trying to protect their own property...
The "violence never solves anything" brigade **** me off time and time again - people work damned hard to have nice cars, nice homes and decent kit for their families. Then what happens? Some little sh1tbag slimes out of their council estate and helps themselves to whatever they want...and the law seldom gives them its full weight.
.. every so often, however, they get what they deserve...a damn good beating, yet often the innocent victim becomes the baddie - look what happened to Tony Martin when he shot the little w4nker who had robbed his house 4 times previously... he got send down for it. The fact that we, in the UK, are not allowed to protect ourselves from scum, leaves us wide open to theft/rape/murder and this will be the case until the law changes. Compare this to the U.S where controlled and licensed firearms are allowed to be used to protect human life and property: the per capita levels of burgulary and car theft are lower than here. I, for one, know where I would rather be. I have been the victim of violent theft in 2001 and what did I do?
I clubbed 7 shades out of the pikey scum with the hammer that he started on me with... when the police turned up they carted him off and let me carry on with work. The CCTV footage proved self defence - had I been at home and not in the shop,where it would have been his word against mine I dunno what would have happened. I am not a violent person but its unreal what the human body and mind does when faced with attack... so, for those who would say they'd leave thieves and not challenge them, I doubt it, I doubt it very much.
[/structured debate off]
03 January 2002, 07:33 PM
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This is so so sad but you just cant try to take these kinda people on, just by the fact of what they were doing means they do not live by the same rules as us.
as individuals if married with kids you have a responsobility to them first and foremost and MUST put them first.
If it happens in your house then you have to do whatever you can but if only he had not chased them it would all be so different.
Im not being hard as this has really shocked me in many ways i want to ignore the whole situation but i know i cant and must not.
I personally would give up almost anything to have this guy back with his family and change the whole situation.
Unfortunatly its todays news for us, his family will never ever get over this i would want to be dead myself if i were in their shoes.
What will the world be like in 100 years time surely eventually it will all self distruct.
[Edited by melpaul2002 - 03/01/2002 19:35:51]
as individuals if married with kids you have a responsobility to them first and foremost and MUST put them first.
If it happens in your house then you have to do whatever you can but if only he had not chased them it would all be so different.
Im not being hard as this has really shocked me in many ways i want to ignore the whole situation but i know i cant and must not.
I personally would give up almost anything to have this guy back with his family and change the whole situation.
Unfortunatly its todays news for us, his family will never ever get over this i would want to be dead myself if i were in their shoes.
What will the world be like in 100 years time surely eventually it will all self distruct.
[Edited by melpaul2002 - 03/01/2002 19:35:51]
03 January 2002, 07:40 PM
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I agree with what you say Rich, in the heat of the moment - I would try to chase them off.......
My deepest sympathy goes to his family
Criminal skum like this will keep doing it time and time again until there is a big enough deterrent. The justice system in my opinion is failing us badly
My deepest sympathy goes to his family
Criminal skum like this will keep doing it time and time again until there is a big enough deterrent. The justice system in my opinion is failing us badly
03 January 2002, 07:48 PM
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I'm with Richard on this
I'd swing for em, I've been the victim of burglary three times last year. Everytime it was the same person. He was eventually caught after kindly giving my newly installed CCTV a full on mugshot. Imagine my surprise when the attending officer is on first name terms with the ****. Turns out the w4nker was a smack head out on bail for another burglary when he turned his attntions to me. Result= 3 month jail sentance, yes that's right he caused thousands of pounds worth of damage and stole over twelve thousand pounds worth during his three visits and all he gets is a lousey three month stretch. Personally I would rather they had let him off his sentence and locked him in a room with me for an hour or two. That would have made me fell a whole lot better. Still I have managed to find out where he lives....if you know what I mean
Steve
I'd swing for em, I've been the victim of burglary three times last year. Everytime it was the same person. He was eventually caught after kindly giving my newly installed CCTV a full on mugshot. Imagine my surprise when the attending officer is on first name terms with the ****. Turns out the w4nker was a smack head out on bail for another burglary when he turned his attntions to me. Result= 3 month jail sentance, yes that's right he caused thousands of pounds worth of damage and stole over twelve thousand pounds worth during his three visits and all he gets is a lousey three month stretch. Personally I would rather they had let him off his sentence and locked him in a room with me for an hour or two. That would have made me fell a whole lot better. Still I have managed to find out where he lives....if you know what I mean
Steve
03 January 2002, 07:52 PM
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Here Here........I heartly agree with what Richard has said, But at the same time my heart goes out to the family, espcially the children, what a sh@t world we live in, and the law in this country stinks
hope they hang the b@stards.
Cheers
Colin
[Edited by Scoob99 - 03/01/2002 19:54:46]
hope they hang the b@stards.
Cheers
Colin
[Edited by Scoob99 - 03/01/2002 19:54:46]
03 January 2002, 07:58 PM
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terrible
the problem (in my eyes) is that the law is in favour of the criminals - and they know it. Like... if you get burgled and give the burglar a good pasting, who will get done?
a sad day... and one that makes the question 'should we bring back capital punishment?' need to be asked - again. Put yourself in a criminals shoes, if you knew that you might get hanged for an offence it would make you think twice before doing it wouldn't it?
I hope they rot. One more thing, I am with you Rich, why let the tw@ts have an easy time of it??? We all work damn hard to get these things, who the hell do they think they are to take someone elses property, let alone someones life.
M
[Edited by mattski2 - 03/01/2002 19:59:01]
[Edited by mattski2 - 03/01/2002 20:00:25]
the problem (in my eyes) is that the law is in favour of the criminals - and they know it. Like... if you get burgled and give the burglar a good pasting, who will get done?
a sad day... and one that makes the question 'should we bring back capital punishment?' need to be asked - again. Put yourself in a criminals shoes, if you knew that you might get hanged for an offence it would make you think twice before doing it wouldn't it?
I hope they rot. One more thing, I am with you Rich, why let the tw@ts have an easy time of it??? We all work damn hard to get these things, who the hell do they think they are to take someone elses property, let alone someones life.
M
[Edited by mattski2 - 03/01/2002 19:59:01]
[Edited by mattski2 - 03/01/2002 20:00:25]
03 January 2002, 09:32 PM
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Tony Martin Shot the kid in the back. He Murdered him. The law let Tony down in the Fact that These kids laugh at the law. But what Tony did was out of order.
I have come out from under "My Stone". Violence is not the answer.
The old "Red mist" can cause a lot of problems. As we get older or wiser we should learn to stand back and access the situation first. Then react accordingly.
very few men could tackle a nutter with a weapon and hope to come out of it undamaged. It only takes one blow to kill.
yes this is the world we are living in.And no, we should not have to put up with it. But remembering that todays thieves etc are out of their sculls on drugs,will have a weapon and will not be afraid to use it.can youu match their frame of mind???
Sure I expect the "Bruce Willis" types to answer. "I'm a black belt in "Wisshi washi"and I will kill the lot of them "etc. But what the hell do you pay insurance for???? Accidents only??
Luke
I have come out from under "My Stone". Violence is not the answer.
The old "Red mist" can cause a lot of problems. As we get older or wiser we should learn to stand back and access the situation first. Then react accordingly.
very few men could tackle a nutter with a weapon and hope to come out of it undamaged. It only takes one blow to kill.
yes this is the world we are living in.And no, we should not have to put up with it. But remembering that todays thieves etc are out of their sculls on drugs,will have a weapon and will not be afraid to use it.can youu match their frame of mind???
Sure I expect the "Bruce Willis" types to answer. "I'm a black belt in "Wisshi washi"and I will kill the lot of them "etc. But what the hell do you pay insurance for???? Accidents only??
Luke
03 January 2002, 10:27 PM
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We live in a harsh world - I hate seeing stuff like this. Why can scum like that not just go to work, earn money, and buy things they like instead of taking them.[img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Things like this make me want to join the police and fight against them, but we will never win against these sorts, especially with our crap justice system. Imagine if Kevin Jackson had killed one of them instead of being murdered - he would have gone down, and the scum would have carried on nicking cars regardless. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Sympathies out to his wife and kids who I saw on the telly this afternoon - really tragic
To quote a film line - "The world was not supposed to be this way"
Simon
Things like this make me want to join the police and fight against them, but we will never win against these sorts, especially with our crap justice system. Imagine if Kevin Jackson had killed one of them instead of being murdered - he would have gone down, and the scum would have carried on nicking cars regardless. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Sympathies out to his wife and kids who I saw on the telly this afternoon - really tragic
To quote a film line - "The world was not supposed to be this way"
Simon
03 January 2002, 10:28 PM
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Luke,
You do have a point but someone has got to stand upto them, sure, suss-out the situation first etc. Thing is, are you saying that if you felt you could do something you wouldn't?
Best option (imho) is to let em go in the hope that they'll get caught and you can find out where they live... then send a pikey mate around with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch (everyone's got a pikey mate
)
Seriously tho, you do have a point but if I felt I could stop them I would try...
M
You do have a point but someone has got to stand upto them, sure, suss-out the situation first etc. Thing is, are you saying that if you felt you could do something you wouldn't?
Best option (imho) is to let em go in the hope that they'll get caught and you can find out where they live... then send a pikey mate around with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch (everyone's got a pikey mate
)Seriously tho, you do have a point but if I felt I could stop them I would try...
M
03 January 2002, 11:34 PM
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But what the hell do you pay insurance for???? Accidents only??
Insurance keeps going up (not helped by the ambulance chasers like Claims Direct) and sooner or later you can't afford to buy and insure anything nice. You might as well just chuck the cash down the drain rather than risk buying some nice as it's time in your possesion will be measured in days.
Hence, what's the point in working hard for the better things in life any more? You might as well just join the pikeys and soap dodgers.
Chris.
04 January 2002, 12:04 AM
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Sorry, but I'm fully with Chris and Richard. Even if you do claim on insurance it can still cost you thousands in excess, increased premiums etc etc.
I remember seeing a program on the Tony Martin case. IIRC he didn't see the burglar when he shot him in the back. He was inside after seeing the burglar coming towards the property. After a continued rattling on the shed door (I think he was inside the shed) he was eventually distraut (as anyone would be after being burgled 4 times) and shot through a hole in the door at waist height. He didn't know he was walking away or whatever.
Besides, who says getting shot after 4 burglaries (and countless other crimes I suspect) isn't just. Sorry, but think of the pain and suffering the little sod caused in his life. They live by the sword, then they should die by the sword. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
I remember seeing a program on the Tony Martin case. IIRC he didn't see the burglar when he shot him in the back. He was inside after seeing the burglar coming towards the property. After a continued rattling on the shed door (I think he was inside the shed) he was eventually distraut (as anyone would be after being burgled 4 times) and shot through a hole in the door at waist height. He didn't know he was walking away or whatever.
Besides, who says getting shot after 4 burglaries (and countless other crimes I suspect) isn't just. Sorry, but think of the pain and suffering the little sod caused in his life. They live by the sword, then they should die by the sword. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
04 January 2002, 12:15 AM
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My opinion on the Tony Martin case is that he shot a burglar, full stop. Surely it's immaterial if it was in the back or not, the little barsteward shouldn't have been there.
Would have previously supported havin a go at thieves (been there before) but today's events would make me think twice.
There is no doubt that all victims of crime pay in one form or another but the question must be asked "how much?".
This poor guy paid the ultimate price for a vehicle.
With the increase in house breakins/hijackings a death was unfortunately inevitable.
If one good point can possibly come from this it is the slightest chance of someone looking at the lack of deterrent currently facing the leeches gaining a living from others.
Would have previously supported havin a go at thieves (been there before) but today's events would make me think twice.
There is no doubt that all victims of crime pay in one form or another but the question must be asked "how much?".
This poor guy paid the ultimate price for a vehicle.
With the increase in house breakins/hijackings a death was unfortunately inevitable.
If one good point can possibly come from this it is the slightest chance of someone looking at the lack of deterrent currently facing the leeches gaining a living from others.
04 January 2002, 07:44 AM
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After my one line comment I would like to add that I fully agree with Richard et al on this.
Until we actually have an effective way with dealing with criminals this will keep happening. At the moment with a liberal and PC president in place this is not likely to change soon, no matter how strong public opinion is.
I also feel for the Police who have to be so careful these days as one complaint from one of these 'people' can ruin their careers.
I do have the greatest sympathy for the family, the poor wife in the press conference actually shook me up.
Maybe the criminal fraternity will give these two up to the police as they have done in the past.
Also I have a way of dealing with them, there is this nice little island of Scotland. It was used by the military for some test a little while back, it is now known as Anthrax Island. Use it like Australia was, except with fatal dieases and cold weather!
Until we actually have an effective way with dealing with criminals this will keep happening. At the moment with a liberal and PC president in place this is not likely to change soon, no matter how strong public opinion is.
I also feel for the Police who have to be so careful these days as one complaint from one of these 'people' can ruin their careers.
I do have the greatest sympathy for the family, the poor wife in the press conference actually shook me up.
Maybe the criminal fraternity will give these two up to the police as they have done in the past.
Also I have a way of dealing with them, there is this nice little island of Scotland. It was used by the military for some test a little while back, it is now known as Anthrax Island. Use it like Australia was, except with fatal dieases and cold weather!
04 January 2002, 09:50 AM
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Guys
I am not saying dont do something...What I am saying is The most important thing at the time is staying alive/out of hospital. Sure it costs us more in insurance etc.But what about time off work,stress to other family members etc if it goes against you.
Even if I had a gun it would not mean that i would shoot someone for nicking my car,as long as they didnt attack me !!
The last thing we need is The thieves thinking everyone will have a go. Will this stop them or will they "Up the Stakes"?????
Luke
I am not saying dont do something...What I am saying is The most important thing at the time is staying alive/out of hospital. Sure it costs us more in insurance etc.But what about time off work,stress to other family members etc if it goes against you.
Even if I had a gun it would not mean that i would shoot someone for nicking my car,as long as they didnt attack me !!
The last thing we need is The thieves thinking everyone will have a go. Will this stop them or will they "Up the Stakes"?????
Luke
04 January 2002, 09:58 AM
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Very sad case, and full sympathy to the family involved. Wrecked lives yet again.
It makes me very angry that this type of thing has to happen. I have to say I would have instintively gone after them too, but hopefully stopped at some point. Who knows what I would have done, or the consequences. It's all done on impulse and adrenaline. You can't really say what one would do until you have done it yourself.
BUT SURELY.. something has to be be done with car crime. Most car crime is pre-mediatated, and not impulse. I know that a lot of people still leave keys in cars (I still see it - fools). But taking a parked/locked/secured car is definately pre-meditated and therefore pre-planned. Again, I realise that car theft has a full spectrum from the 12 year old joy-rider to the tooled up, sophisticated, well organised stolen-to-order gangs. Cars in the wrong hands are dangerous objects. How many young (under 16 years of age) joyriders have driven at inappropriate speeds and done inappropiate manouvers to avoid the police. Just think of the risk to life of innocent by-standers - it does happen !
And again, the treat of personal violence (main thrust of thread) from the more tooled up fraternity, either by taking you unawares in a car park at night, or giving you repeated hassle at your own home, with your wife and kids in mental terror. Again, co operate and non-violence is still no guarantee at the end of the day.
My point is, CAR CRIME AT WHAT EVER LEVEL MUST be considered a very serious crime due to it's potential for VERY serious consequences to many INNOCENT people. The police know who these joy riders are, but due to the system, they either choose to do nothing, or are frustrated by a c@ppy legal system (courts of law that do not pass appropriate sentances / too few prisons impling no place to put them (build them cheap, [they are not supposed to be bl@@dy hotels]). These young offenders progress through the spectrum of crime as they are untouchables. Presumably, these car theves start their apprenticeship somewhere, and are known to the police, from a young age. Presumably, these theves are known to the police through an inticrate web of doggy dealing, and doggy contacts. SCUM like and deal with other SCUM.
Again prison IMO should not rehalitate. The punishment aspect pleases me, but they are too cushy these days. IMO they are meant to protect the public from SCUM. Lock the small scale SCUM up and deprive them of many things. But EVIL SCUM like this should be hanged.
PS - I do support Tony Martin shooting his burgler.
British Justice ?? , yeah right !
It makes me very angry that this type of thing has to happen. I have to say I would have instintively gone after them too, but hopefully stopped at some point. Who knows what I would have done, or the consequences. It's all done on impulse and adrenaline. You can't really say what one would do until you have done it yourself.
BUT SURELY.. something has to be be done with car crime. Most car crime is pre-mediatated, and not impulse. I know that a lot of people still leave keys in cars (I still see it - fools). But taking a parked/locked/secured car is definately pre-meditated and therefore pre-planned. Again, I realise that car theft has a full spectrum from the 12 year old joy-rider to the tooled up, sophisticated, well organised stolen-to-order gangs. Cars in the wrong hands are dangerous objects. How many young (under 16 years of age) joyriders have driven at inappropriate speeds and done inappropiate manouvers to avoid the police. Just think of the risk to life of innocent by-standers - it does happen !
And again, the treat of personal violence (main thrust of thread) from the more tooled up fraternity, either by taking you unawares in a car park at night, or giving you repeated hassle at your own home, with your wife and kids in mental terror. Again, co operate and non-violence is still no guarantee at the end of the day.
My point is, CAR CRIME AT WHAT EVER LEVEL MUST be considered a very serious crime due to it's potential for VERY serious consequences to many INNOCENT people. The police know who these joy riders are, but due to the system, they either choose to do nothing, or are frustrated by a c@ppy legal system (courts of law that do not pass appropriate sentances / too few prisons impling no place to put them (build them cheap, [they are not supposed to be bl@@dy hotels]). These young offenders progress through the spectrum of crime as they are untouchables. Presumably, these car theves start their apprenticeship somewhere, and are known to the police, from a young age. Presumably, these theves are known to the police through an inticrate web of doggy dealing, and doggy contacts. SCUM like and deal with other SCUM.
Again prison IMO should not rehalitate. The punishment aspect pleases me, but they are too cushy these days. IMO they are meant to protect the public from SCUM. Lock the small scale SCUM up and deprive them of many things. But EVIL SCUM like this should be hanged.
PS - I do support Tony Martin shooting his burgler.
British Justice ?? , yeah right !
04 January 2002, 10:06 AM
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Im with Richard on this one. Had the house burgled and car stolen last year. Everything was insured so it 'only' cost me about 5k in lost NCB, increased premiums, non replaceable items etc. The total haul came to near enough 30k for 5 minutes work. The scum used my credit car to buy petrol 12 times in 3 days. The police where so disinterested that they didn't even bother to check if the garages had cctv of the people using the cards. If I woke up now to find one of the low lifes in my house I would absolutely lay into them. They are complete pieces of ****. They don't deserve to have any rights. I'm sure that if these scum knew that they could legally be beaten to a pulp if caught red handed they would opt for a different career. The law should be changed to allow people to defend their property with whatever force they deem necessary.