STi PPP - PUTTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT!
05 July 2007, 02:29 PM
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STi PPP - PUTTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT!
Right here goes:
I am a little sick of people on here saying that the STi PPP never achieves its claimed bhp figures
on rolling road tests and I've never really believed this 
It was with this in mind that I decided to seek out someone who would be deemed to be a "guru" in this field and, as such, I emailed Prodrive directly and stated my concern
The letter below is the reply I received from Mike Wood
(I'm sure plenty of you know Mike but it's the first time I have communicated with him). Mike actually does the testing of the cars himself and explains below what needs to be done to achieve the quoted figures. I think you will agree that it is very comprehensive and explains why this (lower output) probably happens. I think the car is the dogs and I don't want to hear any more about them being under powered, they are not, and here's all the proof you need 
Please don't quote rolling roads, etc, they aren't accurate and the PPP is set up, like most cars I'm sure, to work at its peak "on the road", not on a tread mill for cars! Note the comments about their ECU design also.
I for one think it's great to know the amount of effort and testing that goes into developing the PP package and I have no reason to doubt the skill, knowledge and experience of people like Mike
I have put in bold some key comments but it is worth reading the whole document to get the context. I have also highlighted his comment about not being able to get near these figures by joe public but then this will apply to most figures quoted on performance cars, so the difference is the same, so to say.
Mike, I know you will be looking out for this thread, thanks again for being willing to have your feedback posted and for replying to me so quickly on a topic obviously covered before. You are clearly passionate about what you do. It has helped me understand how this all works and I'm sure it will enlighten others like me.
So to sum up... no more remarks about the STi PPP not having 301bhp, it does have this, at least!
Ahhh that's better
Flak jacket is on, so knock yourself out.
Hi Les
I'm going to say something quite controversial and likely to get a few people's back up..........
A rolling road can only guess at flywheel power output!!!
Over the years I've posted several times on Scoobynet about how people are trying to measure the power output of our cars on the dyno and I've copied some of those comments below (in blue)
In reality, it's more like "not all rolling roads read the same figures for the same car"
We've seen as much as 25bhp & 50lbft variation between rollers using the same car on the same fuel achieving the same boost and the same ignition timing at the same temperature and atmospheric conditions.
One condition that occurs when the car is tested on a rolling road is reduced cooling airflow compared to what it will see on the road and inevitably power output can be slightly down in these conditions unless absolutely everything is done to make sure the conditions are the same as encountered on the road. When we test on a rolling road we make sure that none of the safety strategies we have put into the ECU are not being invoked such as the boost limiting against intake and water temperatures. As most rolling road operators don't even monitor these in the ECU during the runs as they haven't got the time on dyno days, never mind know what we've mapped in, I guess that a significant numbers of cars will run into these limits unknowingly. Remember that we don't aim for dyno figures, they are far too often just used for bragging down the pub although we do appreciate that these may be the only measure of performance that most people are likely to see from their cars. What we do feel is more important is that the car will cope with everything that can be thrown at it whilst still retaining the best performance possible for the longest period of time.
Bearing in mind the criticism we've had in the past for this approach, with the 06MY packages we did a fairly extensive test program that included visiting several dynos with the various cars over a couple of days and a couple of others a week later with the STi on it's own. From the logs we got from the runs we were happy that the cars did the same thing on each dyno (except one where the boost and mass airlow achieved were slightly down on what happens on the road) and the figures achieved were over the numbers that we quote except for just one run which was very slightly less. The numbers did however vary somewhat, the best being more than 20bhp and 40lbft higher than we quote
Any rolling road can only estimate the amount of torque 'lost' between the engine and the contact patch of the tyres. Some use a number generated by measuring the coast down losses at the end of the run but does this take into consideration the fact that the losses are different under power to on coast down. If you ever watch the way a car moves around on the dyno you'll see all sorts of things going on like wheels moving backwards and forwards in the body as the suspension bushes are loaded up, the back of the car squatting as it would on the road etc. These things cjhange camber and tracking so change drag as does the effect in the transmission of the gears trying to force themselves apart. This means the drag caused by transmitting the torque in one direction under load to measuring the drag in the other direction is different.
If a coast down load isn't measured by the dyno as is the case with a Dyno Dynamics Dyno, then the only way of getting a flywheel figure is to apply a fixed correction factor. The issue with this is that the losses in the transmission change with temperature, oil grade, tyre size, tyre type, tyre pressures and general condition of the car so again it's a guess.
When we ran our development 06STi on a Dyno Dynamics set-up we got similar results initially. We did however do quite a few runs as every time we ran it the power and torque increased. We gave up at 325bhp as we felt everything was getting too hot but it does demonstrate that the fixed correction factor applied with this sort of dyno can give misleading results.
Most of our dyno work is done at Power Engineering or latterly Powerstation to confirm the numbers and we generally underquote the figures to be on the safe side. You must remember that we use these dynos quite extensively and have done several exercises to correlate the results given with what we've seen in the past on engine dynos so we are pretty confident in the numbers. We do, as mentioed above, closely monitor the car on the dyno to make sure it's running as it would on the road, intake temperatures being a particular issue as our ECU has active protection against high intake temps that the std ECU doesn't use and as far as I'm aware no other 'tuner' does either.
On the subject of performance figures, the numbers quoted will have been done on our track, normally by me and generally are the best the car will do. I would not expect an owner to get near them but a magazine should be able to recreate them if they prepare the car in the same way. This isn't anything particularly special but as mentioned above, we monitor the cars at all times and in particular keep an eye on intake temps as they have a huge impact on the how the ECU lets the engine perform. As we take boost away when the intake is hot to stop the engine getting into det, you are NEVER going to get good figures on a drag strip as the intake temps will be far too high. Sitting in a queue for more than a few seconds will see the temps shoot up and they won't be back in control until you get a lot of airflow over the intercooler. This normally happens well into 3rd gear so it compromises the run hugely. To take out the variability of clutch slip, my launches normally involve dialling in the rev-limiter and dumping the clutch. I can normally leave the throttle open through all the gearchanges as well so it's not something we would expect a customer to do but it is what the magazines do!!!
If we are doing this sort of testing, our process involves getting the car fully warm with a high speed workout on the track. We then start by doing the in-gear figures followed by the standing start figures. We make sure that the car isn't stationary for more than a couple of seconds at the start of the runs and if it is, we abort and cool it down again.
The Impreza also has a little issue with 2nd gear running out at very close to 60mph. It's possible for 2.0 STi to get to 60 in second but only just so if you don't time it right you either hit the rev limiter which ruins your 100 time or you change too early and ruin your 60 time with an extra gearchange. WRX is less of an issue hence getting 4.8 to 60 whereas the STi is 4.6. Note that the 2.5 engines have a lower rev limit so only do 58 mph in 2nd making it even worse, you HAVE to make 2 changes to 60.
I hope this goes some way to ansering you question, if it doesn't please come back to me.
Regards
Mike
I am a little sick of people on here saying that the STi PPP never achieves its claimed bhp figures
on rolling road tests and I've never really believed this It was with this in mind that I decided to seek out someone who would be deemed to be a "guru" in this field and, as such, I emailed Prodrive directly and stated my concern
The letter below is the reply I received from Mike Wood
(I'm sure plenty of you know Mike but it's the first time I have communicated with him). Mike actually does the testing of the cars himself and explains below what needs to be done to achieve the quoted figures. I think you will agree that it is very comprehensive and explains why this (lower output) probably happens. I think the car is the dogs and I don't want to hear any more about them being under powered, they are not, and here's all the proof you need Please don't quote rolling roads, etc, they aren't accurate and the PPP is set up, like most cars I'm sure, to work at its peak "on the road", not on a tread mill for cars! Note the comments about their ECU design also.
I for one think it's great to know the amount of effort and testing that goes into developing the PP package and I have no reason to doubt the skill, knowledge and experience of people like Mike
I have put in bold some key comments but it is worth reading the whole document to get the context. I have also highlighted his comment about not being able to get near these figures by joe public but then this will apply to most figures quoted on performance cars, so the difference is the same, so to say.
Mike, I know you will be looking out for this thread, thanks again for being willing to have your feedback posted and for replying to me so quickly on a topic obviously covered before. You are clearly passionate about what you do. It has helped me understand how this all works and I'm sure it will enlighten others like me.
So to sum up... no more remarks about the STi PPP not having 301bhp, it does have this, at least!
Ahhh that's better
Flak jacket is on, so knock yourself out.Hi Les
I'm going to say something quite controversial and likely to get a few people's back up..........
A rolling road can only guess at flywheel power output!!!
Over the years I've posted several times on Scoobynet about how people are trying to measure the power output of our cars on the dyno and I've copied some of those comments below (in blue)
In reality, it's more like "not all rolling roads read the same figures for the same car"
We've seen as much as 25bhp & 50lbft variation between rollers using the same car on the same fuel achieving the same boost and the same ignition timing at the same temperature and atmospheric conditions.
One condition that occurs when the car is tested on a rolling road is reduced cooling airflow compared to what it will see on the road and inevitably power output can be slightly down in these conditions unless absolutely everything is done to make sure the conditions are the same as encountered on the road. When we test on a rolling road we make sure that none of the safety strategies we have put into the ECU are not being invoked such as the boost limiting against intake and water temperatures. As most rolling road operators don't even monitor these in the ECU during the runs as they haven't got the time on dyno days, never mind know what we've mapped in, I guess that a significant numbers of cars will run into these limits unknowingly. Remember that we don't aim for dyno figures, they are far too often just used for bragging down the pub although we do appreciate that these may be the only measure of performance that most people are likely to see from their cars. What we do feel is more important is that the car will cope with everything that can be thrown at it whilst still retaining the best performance possible for the longest period of time.
Bearing in mind the criticism we've had in the past for this approach, with the 06MY packages we did a fairly extensive test program that included visiting several dynos with the various cars over a couple of days and a couple of others a week later with the STi on it's own. From the logs we got from the runs we were happy that the cars did the same thing on each dyno (except one where the boost and mass airlow achieved were slightly down on what happens on the road) and the figures achieved were over the numbers that we quote except for just one run which was very slightly less. The numbers did however vary somewhat, the best being more than 20bhp and 40lbft higher than we quote
Any rolling road can only estimate the amount of torque 'lost' between the engine and the contact patch of the tyres. Some use a number generated by measuring the coast down losses at the end of the run but does this take into consideration the fact that the losses are different under power to on coast down. If you ever watch the way a car moves around on the dyno you'll see all sorts of things going on like wheels moving backwards and forwards in the body as the suspension bushes are loaded up, the back of the car squatting as it would on the road etc. These things cjhange camber and tracking so change drag as does the effect in the transmission of the gears trying to force themselves apart. This means the drag caused by transmitting the torque in one direction under load to measuring the drag in the other direction is different.
If a coast down load isn't measured by the dyno as is the case with a Dyno Dynamics Dyno, then the only way of getting a flywheel figure is to apply a fixed correction factor. The issue with this is that the losses in the transmission change with temperature, oil grade, tyre size, tyre type, tyre pressures and general condition of the car so again it's a guess.
When we ran our development 06STi on a Dyno Dynamics set-up we got similar results initially. We did however do quite a few runs as every time we ran it the power and torque increased. We gave up at 325bhp as we felt everything was getting too hot but it does demonstrate that the fixed correction factor applied with this sort of dyno can give misleading results.
Most of our dyno work is done at Power Engineering or latterly Powerstation to confirm the numbers and we generally underquote the figures to be on the safe side. You must remember that we use these dynos quite extensively and have done several exercises to correlate the results given with what we've seen in the past on engine dynos so we are pretty confident in the numbers. We do, as mentioed above, closely monitor the car on the dyno to make sure it's running as it would on the road, intake temperatures being a particular issue as our ECU has active protection against high intake temps that the std ECU doesn't use and as far as I'm aware no other 'tuner' does either.
On the subject of performance figures, the numbers quoted will have been done on our track, normally by me and generally are the best the car will do. I would not expect an owner to get near them but a magazine should be able to recreate them if they prepare the car in the same way. This isn't anything particularly special but as mentioned above, we monitor the cars at all times and in particular keep an eye on intake temps as they have a huge impact on the how the ECU lets the engine perform. As we take boost away when the intake is hot to stop the engine getting into det, you are NEVER going to get good figures on a drag strip as the intake temps will be far too high. Sitting in a queue for more than a few seconds will see the temps shoot up and they won't be back in control until you get a lot of airflow over the intercooler. This normally happens well into 3rd gear so it compromises the run hugely. To take out the variability of clutch slip, my launches normally involve dialling in the rev-limiter and dumping the clutch. I can normally leave the throttle open through all the gearchanges as well so it's not something we would expect a customer to do but it is what the magazines do!!!
If we are doing this sort of testing, our process involves getting the car fully warm with a high speed workout on the track. We then start by doing the in-gear figures followed by the standing start figures. We make sure that the car isn't stationary for more than a couple of seconds at the start of the runs and if it is, we abort and cool it down again.
The Impreza also has a little issue with 2nd gear running out at very close to 60mph. It's possible for 2.0 STi to get to 60 in second but only just so if you don't time it right you either hit the rev limiter which ruins your 100 time or you change too early and ruin your 60 time with an extra gearchange. WRX is less of an issue hence getting 4.8 to 60 whereas the STi is 4.6. Note that the 2.5 engines have a lower rev limit so only do 58 mph in 2nd making it even worse, you HAVE to make 2 changes to 60.
I hope this goes some way to ansering you question, if it doesn't please come back to me.
Regards
Mike
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05 July 2007, 02:40 PM
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I don't think there's any doubt that the PPP is a good (generic) modification route, especially if worried about warranty.
If it were more reasonably priced, more people would have it i reckon. When you can get a well-known tuning companies package for £600-700 less, giving better figures it's almost a no-brainer.
If it were more reasonably priced, more people would have it i reckon. When you can get a well-known tuning companies package for £600-700 less, giving better figures it's almost a no-brainer.
05 July 2007, 06:07 PM
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Has the car got a "Prodrive" stamped exhaust, and blue intercooler hose ?
To the disgruntled poster.
Don't get upset because your STI only has 300 bhp when all other similarly modded STI's have around 330. As long as you are happy with it.
05 July 2007, 06:43 PM
#6
makes for very interesting reading.
espcially since i don't pick my PPP STi up till sunday.
another thing to note tho peak figures aren't the be all and end all.
power delivery is the key espcially in everyday driving
espcially since i don't pick my PPP STi up till sunday.
another thing to note tho peak figures aren't the be all and end all.
power delivery is the key espcially in everyday driving
05 July 2007, 06:45 PM
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05 July 2007, 07:53 PM
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So you e-mail the company who supply the kit. They reply saying that it has what it says on the tin and you say that is conclusive
That is pretty funny
Now i'm not disagreeing with Mike because he is the man, no doubting. But it's like me saying I have a 12'' inch todger, you e-mailing me to confirm and me replying saying 'yep I have it alright' That makes it true then yeah
That is pretty funny
Now i'm not disagreeing with Mike because he is the man, no doubting. But it's like me saying I have a 12'' inch todger, you e-mailing me to confirm and me replying saying 'yep I have it alright' That makes it true then yeah
05 July 2007, 08:45 PM
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why is every body so hung up about power figures.i'd go for what ever kept my warranty intact.so what if the prodrive doesnt produce the figures you expect,do you really think joe blogs under the railway arches is telling you the truth.also remember that prodrive have nothing to prove to anyone they run wrc,f1,now own aston martin.now tell me what they have to prove
05 July 2007, 09:25 PM
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05 July 2007, 10:04 PM
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Prodrive are a commercial company (or at least parts of it are). Each division will be financially seperate. The division involved with the development and marketting of PPP products for subaru have a product to sell and to sell it they need to prove to the customer that it is a worthwhile purchase. They obviously have a contract with subaru, which is why PPP is an approved upgrade fitted by subaru dealers and maintaining the warranty. If PPP doesn't sell then that division will simply be shut down.
Subaru itself is just a division of Fuji heavy industries, so what do Subaru have to prove as Fuji make parts for aeroplanes, trains, industrial machinery. Oh and STi will also be a seperate division too... everyone selling something has something to prove.
05 July 2007, 10:47 PM
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I think you have missed some basic business rules..
Prodrive are a commercial company (or at least parts of it are). Each division will be financially seperate. The division involved with the development and marketting of PPP products for subaru have a product to sell and to sell it they need to prove to the customer that it is a worthwhile purchase. They obviously have a contract with subaru, which is why PPP is an approved upgrade fitted by subaru dealers and maintaining the warranty. If PPP doesn't sell then that division will simply be shut down.
Subaru itself is just a division of Fuji heavy industries, so what do Subaru have to prove as Fuji make parts for aeroplanes, trains, industrial machinery. Oh and STi will also be a seperate division too... everyone selling something has something to prove.
Prodrive are a commercial company (or at least parts of it are). Each division will be financially seperate. The division involved with the development and marketting of PPP products for subaru have a product to sell and to sell it they need to prove to the customer that it is a worthwhile purchase. They obviously have a contract with subaru, which is why PPP is an approved upgrade fitted by subaru dealers and maintaining the warranty. If PPP doesn't sell then that division will simply be shut down.
Subaru itself is just a division of Fuji heavy industries, so what do Subaru have to prove as Fuji make parts for aeroplanes, trains, industrial machinery. Oh and STi will also be a seperate division too... everyone selling something has something to prove.
'yeah, we've got a problem with emissions if we give the car a genuine 300bhp'
'what can we do?'
'I know, we'll detune the engine to below emission levels, then we need a company in relation to us, a brand that can be trusted and be good for marketing to then retune after registration, that will get round the emission laws. Best thing is we can charge em for it, making our cars appear as a cheaper alternative to that mitsubushy thing'
'how about that prodrive company that does our rally car thingys'
'yeah ok whatever, now onto the styling of the 08 car, ive allways liked the deawoos myself....'
05 July 2007, 11:04 PM
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thats very niave....... i can imagine the meeting at IM/prodrive/Subaru
'yeah, we've got a problem with emissions if we give the car a genuine 300bhp'
'what can we do?'
'I know, we'll detune the engine to below emission levels, then we need a company in relation to us, a brand that can be trusted and be good for marketing to then retune after registration, that will get round the emission laws. Best thing is we can charge em for it, making our cars appear as a cheaper alternative to that mitsubushy thing'
'how about that prodrive company that does our rally car thingys'
'yeah ok whatever, now onto the styling of the 08 car, ive allways liked the deawoos myself....'
'yeah, we've got a problem with emissions if we give the car a genuine 300bhp'
'what can we do?'
'I know, we'll detune the engine to below emission levels, then we need a company in relation to us, a brand that can be trusted and be good for marketing to then retune after registration, that will get round the emission laws. Best thing is we can charge em for it, making our cars appear as a cheaper alternative to that mitsubushy thing'
'how about that prodrive company that does our rally car thingys'
'yeah ok whatever, now onto the styling of the 08 car, ive allways liked the deawoos myself....'
Like being in the board room.
06 July 2007, 08:53 AM
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Thanks guys for all your responses, just a couple of things to add:
Companies can't make up claims about what they provide, that's what all the policing bodies are there for
Let's say you buy a can of beer and they have had a "board meeting" to discuss its alcohol content and although it only has 1% they print 5% on the cans, weights and measures (or whatever body monitors this) comes along and tests it, prosecutes the company and jails the Directors, oh right, Prodrive must just make up the numbers and subaru are happy to put their name against it
For those of you who say things like top end figures don't matter, why do you keep modifying your cars then...... let me see, ah yes, to increase your top end figures. If these don't matter why is everyone so obsessed with modding, they certainly don't do it to reduce the output do they
All i wanted to do was post some detailed info explaining why figures coming off of these "rolling roads" are, well, dubious to say the least, they simply don't replicate normal road conditions and the PPP's ECU has protections in place that will stop the engine running at full power under these conditions, that's all
My STi PPP is nothing special, in power terms, versus a lot of the cars on this sight but I believe as an approved modification, the PPP is superb as it carries full warranty protection and is designed to be used repeatedly without having to worry if the engine is going to blow up the next time you overtake a tractor Come on I know there are people out there who have modified their car and blown it to bits 
Cheers people.
Companies can't make up claims about what they provide, that's what all the policing bodies are there for
Let's say you buy a can of beer and they have had a "board meeting" to discuss its alcohol content and although it only has 1% they print 5% on the cans, weights and measures (or whatever body monitors this) comes along and tests it, prosecutes the company and jails the Directors, oh right, Prodrive must just make up the numbers and subaru are happy to put their name against it
For those of you who say things like top end figures don't matter, why do you keep modifying your cars then...... let me see, ah yes, to increase your top end figures. If these don't matter why is everyone so obsessed with modding, they certainly don't do it to reduce the output do they
All i wanted to do was post some detailed info explaining why figures coming off of these "rolling roads" are, well, dubious to say the least, they simply don't replicate normal road conditions and the PPP's ECU has protections in place that will stop the engine running at full power under these conditions, that's all
My STi PPP is nothing special, in power terms, versus a lot of the cars on this sight but I believe as an approved modification, the PPP is superb as it carries full warranty protection and is designed to be used repeatedly without having to worry if the engine is going to blow up the next time you overtake a tractor
Come on I know there are people out there who have modified their car and blown it to bits Cheers people.
06 July 2007, 09:29 AM
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Very interesting point about soaking of the intercooler dropping the power, pretty obvious really.
I have to say I have the tsl333 map for nearly 2years now I dont really bash the daylights out of my car at all, never been on a track for instance, ppp indeed is a mapping well within the limits of the sti hence why subaru are happy to honour the warranty. But I will say I hated the driving experience of the ppp mapping, its in my opinion awful vs the tsl map, that neck breaking turbo cut in and high rev tail off in torque oo yuk... when your warranty is up bin the ppp immediatly.
My car has been regularly serviced by subaru dealers and no problems at all with the engine so comparisons about reliability to me anyway are a moot point. As is the common consensus take the ppp in yer 3yr window with subaru warranty, soon as that runs out bin it as quick as your wallet can allow.
I have to say I have the tsl333 map for nearly 2years now I dont really bash the daylights out of my car at all, never been on a track for instance, ppp indeed is a mapping well within the limits of the sti hence why subaru are happy to honour the warranty. But I will say I hated the driving experience of the ppp mapping, its in my opinion awful vs the tsl map, that neck breaking turbo cut in and high rev tail off in torque oo yuk... when your warranty is up bin the ppp immediatly.
My car has been regularly serviced by subaru dealers and no problems at all with the engine so comparisons about reliability to me anyway are a moot point. As is the common consensus take the ppp in yer 3yr window with subaru warranty, soon as that runs out bin it as quick as your wallet can allow.
Last edited by AllyJ; 06 July 2007 at 09:44 AM.
06 July 2007, 09:48 AM
#20
Rolling Roads, mmm, so why did my PPP give abysmal results on a road dyno run, real tarmac real driving poor results. If PPP results can only be achieved by replicating the track testing conditions then the conclusion can only be that for the money its pointless for joe average on the road ? I am not saying it didn't improve the car because it did, it made a much better noise
probably, but to the tune of 40bhp etc which is the marketing headline people buy it for, I think not.
probably, but to the tune of 40bhp etc which is the marketing headline people buy it for, I think not.
06 July 2007, 09:55 AM
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Rolling Roads, mmm, so why did my PPP give abysmal results on a road dyno run, real tarmac real driving poor results. If PPP results can only be achieved by replicating the track testing conditions then the conclusion can only be that for the money its pointless for joe average on the road ? I am not saying it didn't improve the car because it did, it made a much better noise probably, but to the tune of 40bhp etc which is the marketing headline people buy it for, I think not.
probably, but to the tune of 40bhp etc which is the marketing headline people buy it for, I think not.
06 July 2007, 12:40 PM
#22
For those of you who say things like top end figures don't matter, why do you keep modifying your cars then...... let me see, ah yes, to increase your top end figures. If these don't matter why is everyone so obsessed with modding, they certainly don't do it to reduce the output do they
but just because a car has 30BHP more doesn't mean it will be quicker if the power delivery is **** and all the power is right at the top end.
the prodrive map has a pretty flat torque curve across a good amount of the rev range.
what you need when you want to make progress.
just because another map ofers a higher peak figure deosn't mean it will be any quicker in reality.
people always seem to forget about power delivery. If the power isn't there lower down the rev range where again you want it (in normally road use i.e over taking etc) unless you drive everywhere at 5K RPM (i certainly don't) then to me its not much use.
so i will say again peak figures aren't the be all and end all (just part of the story that people seem to get very hung up on)
06 July 2007, 12:48 PM
#23
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I have advocated PPP for uk cars and yes my MY02StiPPP never really did get 300bhp & 300lbs but it always "did" it on the road
Bumped into Mike at Powerstation march 06 he was doing the rounds of the countries Rolling roads
to see what figure were achieved without any changes here is one of the PM's he sent me
Bumped into Mike at Powerstation march 06 he was doing the rounds of the countries Rolling roads
to see what figure were achieved without any changes here is one of the PM's he sent me
Originally Posted by MikeWood
We are finding now that Powerstation give slightly higher figures than they used to, the testing we did last week confirmed that the power figures are very similar but the torque at PS is lower than both PE and WRC. As an example the numbers for the WRX are
PE 269/308 (bhp/lbft)
PS 269.5/292
WRC 264.5/330
We'll probably quote something close to the PE numbers as we've correlated them previously to our engine dynos at MK.
This is what makes it very difficult for the customer as he could reasonably expect to be told when he's trying to compare the different packages offered that he'll get nearly 40lbft more torque using a WRC kit when the reality is that it could the same as a spec at PS with 40lbft less.
XXX quote figures from Prosport which have recently shown the produce much higher numbers than PS as well, difference is torque was similar to PS v WRC but power was up by a big chunk as well. All a bit misleading if the numbers are taken at face value.
Regards
Mike
PE 269/308 (bhp/lbft)
PS 269.5/292
WRC 264.5/330
We'll probably quote something close to the PE numbers as we've correlated them previously to our engine dynos at MK.
This is what makes it very difficult for the customer as he could reasonably expect to be told when he's trying to compare the different packages offered that he'll get nearly 40lbft more torque using a WRC kit when the reality is that it could the same as a spec at PS with 40lbft less.
XXX quote figures from Prosport which have recently shown the produce much higher numbers than PS as well, difference is torque was similar to PS v WRC but power was up by a big chunk as well. All a bit misleading if the numbers are taken at face value.
Regards
Mike
06 July 2007, 02:48 PM
#24
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So you e-mail the company who supply the kit. They reply saying that it has what it says on the tin and you say that is conclusive
That is pretty funny
Now i'm not disagreeing with Mike because he is the man, no doubting. But it's like me saying I have a 12'' inch todger, you e-mailing me to confirm and me replying saying 'yep I have it alright' That makes it true then yeah
That is pretty funny
Now i'm not disagreeing with Mike because he is the man, no doubting. But it's like me saying I have a 12'' inch todger, you e-mailing me to confirm and me replying saying 'yep I have it alright' That makes it true then yeah
interesting mike reckons most drivers will not get near his figures..so why quote them if you have to thrash the car to get them?!
martin
06 July 2007, 02:51 PM
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Very interesting point about soaking of the intercooler dropping the power, pretty obvious really.
I have to say I have the tsl333 map for nearly 2years now I dont really bash the daylights out of my car at all, never been on a track for instance, ppp indeed is a mapping well within the limits of the sti hence why subaru are happy to honour the warranty. But I will say I hated the driving experience of the ppp mapping, its in my opinion awful vs the tsl map, that neck breaking turbo cut in and high rev tail off in torque oo yuk... when your warranty is up bin the ppp immediatly.
My car has been regularly serviced by subaru dealers and no problems at all with the engine so comparisons about reliability to me anyway are a moot point. As is the common consensus take the ppp in yer 3yr window with subaru warranty, soon as that runs out bin it as quick as your wallet can allow.
I have to say I have the tsl333 map for nearly 2years now I dont really bash the daylights out of my car at all, never been on a track for instance, ppp indeed is a mapping well within the limits of the sti hence why subaru are happy to honour the warranty. But I will say I hated the driving experience of the ppp mapping, its in my opinion awful vs the tsl map, that neck breaking turbo cut in and high rev tail off in torque oo yuk... when your warranty is up bin the ppp immediatly.
My car has been regularly serviced by subaru dealers and no problems at all with the engine so comparisons about reliability to me anyway are a moot point. As is the common consensus take the ppp in yer 3yr window with subaru warranty, soon as that runs out bin it as quick as your wallet can allow.
martin
Last edited by p1doc; 06 July 2007 at 03:07 PM.
06 July 2007, 04:18 PM
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Because this upgrade is regularly criticised and I wanted to see what others had to say on the topic. I don't believe that Prodrive have sold this approved mod' on "made up figures" and I don't think rolling roads provide enough evidence, especially if the ECU has programmed safety limits to stop it achieving maximum output when the conditions are wrong, such as high intake temperatures.
The one point that bothers me is the guy who did a road dyno on his car and was left short on the numbers achieved, post your results dude and I will take up with Mike
The one point that bothers me is the guy who did a road dyno on his car and was left short on the numbers achieved, post your results dude and I will take up with Mike
06 July 2007, 06:37 PM
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I had a little play against a sti ppp in my standard sti a couple of years ago.We both went in each others cars and there was nothing between them.The person with the ppp kit actually indicated to me that he thought my car had the edge.I didnt bother with ppp and went down the tsl route,that was probably 2 years ago now and its never missed a beat.Jay
06 July 2007, 11:06 PM
#30
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As someone who has spent most of his working life around rolling roads I thought I would add my take on this debate...
I have tested some 50 or so Prodrived STi's over the last 18 months and have seen (As I would expect to be fair and I will explain why in a moment) a wide range of results...Cars with 20hp less than claimed , cars with as claimed and even a couple with more than claimed ...
Now as I said I will explain why "I ain't bovvered"...Names have been changed to protect the guilty...
Mr Ford Vauxhall produces a new engine type , right he says lets test it and see what it produces..A man straps it to an engine dyno and runs it up and it produces 100hp , it is then therefore assumed that all of the engines of that type will produce 100hp...(In reality of course they take an average but you get my point..)
If that were so we would all be much better off , in truth that doesn't happen...You will always see slight power differences in engines and cars of the same type even before you factor in atmospheric pressure and temperature differences when they are tested...
That concludes my rant and I will close with this statement..
I find slagging off rolling roads as a tool deeply offensive and I have still to find a more meaningful measure of a cars true performance..Drag racing has far to many variables for my money...
Martyn
I have tested some 50 or so Prodrived STi's over the last 18 months and have seen (As I would expect to be fair and I will explain why in a moment) a wide range of results...Cars with 20hp less than claimed , cars with as claimed and even a couple with more than claimed ...
Now as I said I will explain why "I ain't bovvered"...Names have been changed to protect the guilty...
Mr Ford Vauxhall produces a new engine type , right he says lets test it and see what it produces..A man straps it to an engine dyno and runs it up and it produces 100hp , it is then therefore assumed that all of the engines of that type will produce 100hp...(In reality of course they take an average but you get my point..)
If that were so we would all be much better off , in truth that doesn't happen...You will always see slight power differences in engines and cars of the same type even before you factor in atmospheric pressure and temperature differences when they are tested...
That concludes my rant and I will close with this statement..
I find slagging off rolling roads as a tool deeply offensive and I have still to find a more meaningful measure of a cars true performance..Drag racing has far to many variables for my money...
Martyn
Last edited by MartynJ; 06 July 2007 at 11:09 PM.