merlin

Following my accident during the week, I've just been speaking to the garage about getting the car fixed. They reckon it's going to be about £1500.

My question is should I put this through my insurance or not. The insurance has an excess of £250 with a 60% protected no claims discount. I've heard stories that even with protected no claims, you still get stung in following years to make up for the insurance companies costs. As I would like to keep the car for several years, is it better to find the £1500 or claim off the insurance?

Tim Bomford

I would have thought you should claim. You have PNCB and therefore are allowed 2 claims "hassle free" down to the protection you have. Why bother having the no claims protected if you had no intention of using it should the unfortunate have happened?

blp

I agree. As you have NCP, claim.
Not sure what happen in the accident, but if it was not your fault, and the other person admits it, I have not involved my own insurance co, just claimed through the offenders.

DavidBrown

I would NOT claim.

Even though your NCD is protected, it will still count as a claim and affect your renewals.

As your XS is £250, you'll only be claiming £1250 anyway.. which may be how much your increased insurance premiums will cost you (over 3-4 years of policies)

Plus.. you never know when you may need to claim for a greater amount, wishing you'd paid the £1500 yourself.

I've been unfortunate (see: stupid) enough to have 2 own-fault claims within the last 2 year. My NCD is still intact, but my premiums have gone from £800 per year to £2000..

[This message has been edited by DavidBrown (edited 18 November 2000).]

merlin

If you don't claim, then do you have to say that you have had an accident when you're hunting around for the best deal, come renewal time?

MTR

Merlin,
Up to a point I have agree with David, as he has just reconfirmed my experienvces regarding policy increases.
My policy jumped from £644 (last years premium) to £1726, after 1 claim.
The claim was not my fault, and was readjusted immediately prior to my policy renewal to £880 (still over £240 more than last year for no change in circumstances), which I than voluntarily paid an extra £146 to protect my NCB.

So with one claim £1726, with claim scrubbed £880. Bit of a difference I think you will agree.

For myself it appeared that a claim of £1000 or less just wouldn't be worth making, unless of course I haven't the cash to cover it, as I was loaded an extra £440 ish on top of th e £400 increase in premium for losing 20% NCB.
This loading would be applied for the next 4 years, costing me an additional £1600 +, and the repair to my car was ONE new door only, (I think probably £1000 repair total cost max, as the repairer quoted my friend £430 to remove a dent on one of his Impreza doors, and spray out over the adjoining panels, much the same way mine was repaired, except my door was scrapped, not fixed).
The car sustained no other damage. I was not told how much the repair was, although I did ask for confirmation from the repairers, for future insurance quotations on renewal. They regularly ask how much the claim was for, and now I cannot tell them.

If you had caused £8000 of damage, you obviously have to claim, and then start saving for the following years renewal, big style I suspect.

At the costs your talking about, its about the level where maybe you should, maybe you shouldn't claim.

My experinces by the way, have taken place over the last 2 months, so are quite topical.

Cheers MTR

[This message has been edited by MTR (edited 18 November 2000).]

merlin

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by blp:
<B>I agree. As you have NCP, claim.
Not sure what happen in the accident, but if it was not your fault, and the other person admits it, I have not involved my own insurance co, just claimed through the offenders.[/quote]

Can you claim a no fault accident after hitting an oil slick on a damp road & ending up in the hedge? I suspect not as the insurance company will have no one to claim against

MTR

Merlin,
The council have an legal obligation to ensure that the roads are maintained in a satisfactory condition, suitable for safe passage of vehicles etc.
If the Police had been involved at the time, you could have made a claim against the council involved.

I made a succesful claim on my MY98, against a council, for the £3000 repair bill suffered after I crashed on a flooded section of road.
There were no warning signs, it wasn't raining, nor had it been for several hours, but a drain had been allowed to become badly overgrown with foliage, and become blocked.

Also I was involved in a fatal motorcycle crash when I was 17, I was pillion, were we skidded on diesel, and my friend, who was riding, died.

When one my other friends tried to show the Police officers who attended, the diesel on the road, they wouldn't even bother to look.
W***ers.
And to add insult to injury,one of the officers visited me in hospital, whilst I was in traction, to try and get me to admit that we had been speeding.
Talk about trying to wriggle of the hook.

Possibly because if they been forced to confirm, officially the cause of the accident, a rather substantial payout, to my friends family, for his death, and to myself, for the multiple injuries that I sustained, would have been pursued with the local council.

Anyway, as at the time neither I nor my other friend that was with me (on another motorbike) had any knowledge of the legalities of highway maintenance, a claim was never pursued.

Cheers MTR

Brendan Hughes

I'm just about to make a claim with PNCB, and don't like what I read above.

Can anyone explain how NCB is protected yet the premium apparently rockets after a claim? Seems like a total con.

BJH

sunilp

Even if you dont claim on insurance, you still have to disclose ALL incidents come renewal time (insured claimed or not)!

The NCB is a % discount, however, the buggers still increase your premium so you still pay out more pounds absolutely next time if you have a claim with PNCB!......any which way they can, they will.

Remember premium is based on risk, if you've claimed then you become a higher risk case, simple!

[This message has been edited by sunilp (edited 18 November 2000).]

Mr.Cookie

As i reed it, it seems that having had an accident you are now considered a higher risk so your premium goes up although it will still be reduced by the amount of NCB you have which was protected as so stays the same.

Simon

Edit Surely it did'nt take me 5 minutes to type that ggrrrr sunil

[This message has been edited by Mr.Cookie (edited 18 November 2000).]

MTR

Brendan,
You will still get 60% off the policy base figure, just that you will be loaded an additional figure, (think of a number) which your company sees fit to add on, dependant on how they reassess your risk..

Sunil,
To further elaborate on your post, my understanding is that the % NCB discount is taken of the basic policy figure, then the loading is ADDED afterwards.
ie you don't get discount on the loading figure.


Cheers MTR

merlin

Thanks for all the responses so far - plenty to think about

My opinion of the car insurance industry is rapidly going downhill.

This is probably very naive, but I thought the whole idea of insurance was to spread the risk amongst many people, not to recover as much as possible from the people who have to make a claim. Maybe for people who have many accidents, & hence no PNCD, they are justified to an extent, but in my case, I drove for 13 years, 180k miles, without an accident.

BTW, where's rum when you need him?

merlin


[This message has been edited by merlin (edited 19 November 2000).]

strong

Last year I paid £850 (£500 xs) with 1 years NCB on my 98MY UK. I had an accident (my fault) this year, £2k pay out. My cheapest quote obtained last week was £1600 with £500 xs. This year the car now has brakes and suspension mods though. The quote could be reduced to £1100 with a £1250 xs.

Paul

sunilp

Mr Cookie, yes your understanding is correct.

MTR, i have no idea - never had a claim!. If they do do that way then thats naughty, its a bit like credit card companies who give you a cheap balance transfer and when u add addtional purchahes, and make payments they reduce the lower rate loan first and leave the added (high interest) additional transactions until last for allocation?!!!

Sunil

Brendan Hughes

I still don't get it.

Bottom line; if companies are free to load the premium as they view risk, then why am I paying 20% of my premium for a PNCB?

Either it's worthless, in which case it should cost five quid extra, or it's worth something, in which case I'm happy to cough up for it.

Otherwise it seems to me to be a blatant case of misrepresentation.

Privilege write "Your Policy has been extended to protect your maximum NCD, provided you are entitled to this. You will keep your maximum NCD unless more than two claims arise in three consecutive years. If three claims arise in three consecutive years your protected NCD reduces to 40% at your next renewal. Should more than three claims arise your NCD will be withdrawn completely."

Exactly what is the point of paying a lot of money for that if they are going to ignore your NCD and load your premium anyway? I'll be speaking to Privilege about this on Monday, and trying to get something in writing too.

Tom, where are you now that we need you?

BJH

Scooby Doc

Merlin

Looks as if you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Sunil is right, you are now a higher risk, and even if you don't claim you have to inform your insurance company of the accident - certailnly at renewal time at the latest. To fail to do so will obviously give the insurance company an excuse not to pay up.

You didn't say whether the accident was your own fault - I presume it was otherwise you would be talking about suing (sueing? sewing?) somebody. I have a good friend "in the trade" who tells me that if somebody involves you in their accident where it is clearly the other party's fault then get the loss adjustors on to them immediately. This way you can claim for a hire car from the start on their insurance policy and presumably you may be able to cover some of the loss if the car is written off.

Martin

MTR

Brendan,
I am insured with Privilege as well, and it was one of their advisers that explained the loading situation to me.

In simplistic terms lets say your policy was £1000 full premium before discount.
With 60% discount you pay £400.

Make a claim with PNCB and the policy stays at £1000 with 60% discount ie £400, BUT then they will add a figure £100/200/300/400/500----- or as they see fit dependant on the size of the claim you have made.

So your renewal will state 60% discount but this year sir we want £XXXXXXXX. Have a nice day now!

If you hadn't protected yout NCB, in the example I have shown, your premium would be £1000 less 40% disount ie £600 payable (£200 more than with PNCB) + the loading figure.

In reality the figures I am quoting could probably be doubled to be more realistic for a Subaru Impreza Turbo.

I was going to be loaded an additional £440 ON TOP OF THE £400 plus that I lost on my NCB (%20), but luckily the claim was settled prior to me having to pay up.

If you were unfortunate enough to make 2 claims within the 3 year period you mention, you would lose %40 of your NCB or probably about £800 in real money, AS WELL AS BEING LOADED £x.

As the adviser said to me if you have a £20K claim, all insurance companies want their money back, HIS WORDS NOT MINE.

If you total your car and another of similar value, plus a bit pf whiplash here and there, a total bill of £60/70K is possible.
Call me cynical, but I would be VERY suprised if the following year your policy doesn't go through the roof.

Additionally, by the way, the protected bonus would be transfered to a new company if you swapped at the renewal time, so they would still give you 60%, BUT they will load you just the same based on your claims record.

Just fore a little more amusement, when Privilege informed that my policy had gone up £1080 pounds from the previous year to £1726, they told me that they were aware the accident was not my fault, and I would be reimbursed all monies owing to myself after completion of th eclaim. My NCB would be reinstated etc.
So I asked the obvious question, well how much will my premium be after everything is settled, answer , we can't tell you that, sir.
What! you want me to shell out £1726 pouinds with the assurance that I will get SOMETHING back, but you cannot or will not tell me how much I will get back. Yes I'm sorry sir but the screen only shows me your renewal figure, with 40% NCB in lieu of 60% plus you've been loaded, but I can't tell you by how much.
So I can't divide the current figure by 6 multiply by 4 to put it back to the full discounted figure, answer as above.

This is not a fabricated story, or even my opinion, but based on ACTUAL EVENTS.

Edited to add this note.

Before anyone jumps dowm my throat about my apparent unhappiness with insurance companies, I would like to state that I feel £1000 for a 150 MPH £21K car is not that bad. And although it hurts to have to pay it, I do so without griping.
The issue that caused me some alarm, was the way a policy can dramatically increase, due to having a claim.
Obviously I was aware of the NCB reduction, but not about the level of loading that DOES take place.

Cheers MTR

[This message has been edited by MTR (edited 19 November 2000).]

Mr.Cookie

Posted last week by Merlin, how it happened

robski

Guys,

you are correct, PNCB does as it says on the tin it protects your no claims bonus, i.e. it will not go down. But, thats the last part of the equation, calculated premium x NCB = actual paid premium.

If you have a claim, you will normally pay more premium. There are limited circumstances where this wont happen, but in general you are more of a risk, so your premium goes up.

As someone said, look at the 3-4 year situation as to whether its worth it. Also, 2 "own fault" claims and you probably wont be able to afford the scoob insurance anymore.

If you pay for the claim yourself, you dont declare. Maybe its not 100% correct, but I work in insurance and I know that there are situations where people are advised to pay for the claim (own staff) so that they do not have to declare the claim over the next 3-4 years.

What your actually saying you really want is a protected premium. There are some places that will give you a statement about guaranteed maximum rise etc, you just need to ask. Bear in mind tho that its very unlikely to be the insurance co thats agreeing to this, its the broker trying to retain your business, so you may end up with a very dodgy ins co come renewal to manage to get your quote within the limits they have agreed.

Never try to lie about a claim thats been paid by ins co, they have ways of finding these things out. Cant rememeber the name of the system tho

robski

Rum*

Sorry for the delay guys....I was out playing with the Southern Boys'n'Gals yesterday at the Southern Meet...you see occasionally us northerners venture south to see how the other half live!!!

Its a difficult question and from what I can see, it has been answered by MTR and others.

A couple of things spring to mind...

Firstly the loading that you are talking about, following a claim, should be the standard load an insurer makes for said incident i.e. when providing a quote insurers always apply a load for a claim, conviction etc - this should not be confused with affecting your NCD. This load is the same whether you have Maximum No Claims or Nil No Claims. The No Claims Discount (NCD)is always applied last...so after taking into account the postcode, age of driver, experience, type of car, security, age of car, limited mileage, restricted driving etc, they then apply the NCD.

With regard to Protected No Claims Discount (PNCD), again this (IMHO) is well worth the additional cost. At least you still get 65% (or whatever the amount that you have earned) off the gross premium - you also get the benefit of not loosing the discount until you have (in most cases) a second incident. If the NCD is not protected the the NCD will automatically step back 2 years i.e. based on the normal scale of 30% for 1 year, 40% for 2 years, 50% for 3 years, 60% for 4 years and 65% for 5 years plus. In other words, following a claim whree you have presently 5 years NCD (65%), at the following renewal your NCD will automatically reduce to 3 years (50%). If you have a second claim in the same period of insurance - then the NCD will automatically be reduced to NIL (0%)!!! As you can see, it will then take at least 5 years to get back to the same position (in terms of discount). At least with the protection you don't immediately lose the discount.

With regard to whether you should claim - I'm affraid it is a personal choice and I would suggest it depends on your present financial position ...personally I would not - I would save the claim for a loss greater than the one you are suggesting. Having said - if I made that desision I would would speak to the insurers and find out what reduction in premium would be available for an increased excess of, lets say, £1,000. Obviously if you are not claiming for losses unless they are over that sort of amount then you would/should benefit from a reduced excess.

If you speak to them now about increasing the excess, they may apply a pro rata return premium for you...maybe giving you a decent size saving, which you could then offset against the claim...

If you want to discuss further, please give me a call...as I think I am just starting to ramble on about, what is afterall, a REALLY boring subject

All the best.

Tom

Rum*

Robski....name of the database is CLUE....they have records of all (I believe)motor related claims and share the information with all the insurers in an attempt to reduce the number of fraudalant(SP) claims

robski

Ah yes thats the one.

Still in the end it saves all of us paying motor insurance as it helps to detect fraud.

robski

rjc

I would claim if you NCD is still intact. Most companies allow 1 or 2 claims before they remove you NCD if it is protected. I had a £11,500 claim last year and my premium went up by £75. Allowing for general rise in premiums I reckon it actually reduced.

E.g. after the accident :

Impreza Turbo insurance £460 fully comp
Lotus Elise £515 fully comp

Rob C

Brendan Hughes

MTR, Tom and Robski, thanks for your replies.

I THINK I understand them, sort of...

Tom; boring maybe, but very necessary when it's a case of do I spend X to save Y, and there is over a thousand pounds of difference between the two! As I say, being a lawyer, I am also interested in misrepresentation, trading standards etc. I'd like to know what I am (and what I'm not) getting for my money.

My quote has come through today for well over a grand, far more than I expected. And I simply do not have that lying around at the moment; I've got 500 excess as it is. Will see what happens.

BTW, what is the difference in premium calculation btwn having to declare an accident come renewal time, but not claiming, and claiming but with PNCB? Riddle me that, Batman!!

BJH

merlin

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply. It amazes me how helpful people are on scoobynet.

Tom - great point about increasing the excess - now why didn't I think of that.

If anyone knows the answer to Brendan's riddle then I would like to hear it.

Rob, was your £11500 claim following a no fault accident? & if it wasn't, then can anyone explain why the policy wasn't loaded come renewal time.

merlin

rjc

My claim was my fault but I was the only party involved. First accident and claim for about 10 years.

Brendan Hughes

Hmm... no riddle answers yet, then?

Rum*

BH,

Rather than try and putfingers to keyboard at this time of night I will quite happily try and explain the riddle tomorrow

0113 250 0377

Cheers Rum (Tom)

merlin

I received the formal quote for the repairs today following my accident last week. Somehow the cost has now gone upto £2000ish & that's assuming there's no suspension or steering damage.

After speaking to Tom & my insurance company, I've decided to make a claim. The guy at the insurance company said that my premium would NOT be effected because my policy has PNCD. I hope he's right but I suspect that he's just a muppet who answers the phones & has nothing to do with setting premiums...