Whats More Important? BHP or Torque
19 November 2001, 12:41 PM
#6
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 3,491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you are talking about peak torque, then defo the 350 BHP one...
as they are directly related (and the gearbox might survive ...).
The 350 lbs car would have a mad boost curve with a midrange peak, but then a disappointing drop (otherwise it would make more than 300 BHP
)
The 350 BHP car would be faster
(assuming the tuning was well done, the torque curve/spread would be great with no mad rolloff at the higher RPM)
But basically: I would want to see the torque graph. Peak numbers are pretty useless.
Theo
as they are directly related (and the gearbox might survive ...).
The 350 lbs car would have a mad boost curve with a midrange peak, but then a disappointing drop (otherwise it would make more than 300 BHP
)The 350 BHP car would be faster
(assuming the tuning was well done, the torque curve/spread would be great with no mad rolloff at the higher RPM)But basically: I would want to see the torque graph. Peak numbers are pretty useless.
Theo
19 November 2001, 12:46 PM
#7
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 13,274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Danny,
More torque would be nice, it's always welcome!!
The big BHP of my car seems to be the side effect of such a large turbo, personally I would prefer 250bhp, but have 400ftlb of torque!!
Although the rolling road, doesn't really give a great comparision! It gives a finite amount, but doesn't take turbo lag, close ratio boxes, acceleration into consideration! Or driver ability!!!
I hope Saturday hasn't put you off!
Cheers
Andy
More torque would be nice, it's always welcome!!
The big BHP of my car seems to be the side effect of such a large turbo, personally I would prefer 250bhp, but have 400ftlb of torque!!
Although the rolling road, doesn't really give a great comparision! It gives a finite amount, but doesn't take turbo lag, close ratio boxes, acceleration into consideration! Or driver ability!!!
I hope Saturday hasn't put you off!
Cheers
Andy
Trending Topics
19 November 2001, 12:55 PM
#8
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Andy
What level did your torque peak at on Saturday? - I dont get full boost till about 4200rpm.... with my hybrid VF22 - just gotta find why the car hits a bick wall below 6000rpm
If I have'nt got over 360hp and 330lbs of foot torque by at least Feb then I'm quitting... and taking a step back to a much better erm.. car, but thats for another thread..... with 8 pages so far!
Dont think the gearbox would survive with over 350lbs torque (proper torque that is - not RR figures!)
Danny - what ECU dyu have then...
What level did your torque peak at on Saturday? - I dont get full boost till about 4200rpm.... with my hybrid VF22 - just gotta find why the car hits a bick wall below 6000rpm
If I have'nt got over 360hp and 330lbs of foot torque by at least Feb then I'm quitting... and taking a step back to a much better erm.. car, but thats for another thread..... with 8 pages so far!
Dont think the gearbox would survive with over 350lbs torque (proper torque that is - not RR figures!)
Danny - what ECU dyu have then...
19 November 2001, 01:03 PM
#11
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 13,274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve,
354bhp @ 6913rpm
298lbs/ft @ around 5000rpm - Although seems nice and flat!
Full spool on my turbo is at 4,300rpm
Cheers
Andy
[Edited by Andy Tang - 11/19/2001 1:09:58 PM]
354bhp @ 6913rpm
298lbs/ft @ around 5000rpm - Although seems nice and flat!
Full spool on my turbo is at 4,300rpm
Cheers
Andy
[Edited by Andy Tang - 11/19/2001 1:09:58 PM]
19 November 2001, 01:03 PM
#12
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,965
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As the old expression has it, "torque is what *gets* you moving, BHP *keeps* you moving". But really, it isn't even about peak torque figures, it's the torque curve that counts -- when it starts, how flat it is etc.
But I like torque -- lots of it.
But I like torque -- lots of it.
19 November 2001, 01:08 PM
#13
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
more torque is what you need. but what theo is trying to say is it is wouldn't really be able to get these figures in real life unless of course the rpm was limited to lets say 6000rpm as in rally cars.
away of doing this though is to restrict the intact side of a large turbo thus restricting bhp and increasing the torque. rally car style.
bhp is calculated from torque. basically to get more bhp on the rollers all you need is a big turbo that will not run out of air at the top end and there for reving the car longer. hence you will get more bhp. more rev=more bhp.
away of doing this though is to restrict the intact side of a large turbo thus restricting bhp and increasing the torque. rally car style.
bhp is calculated from torque. basically to get more bhp on the rollers all you need is a big turbo that will not run out of air at the top end and there for reving the car longer. hence you will get more bhp. more rev=more bhp.
19 November 2001, 01:26 PM
#15
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dingy
Not bad for an Escort RS?
You must have spent plenty on everything else. (The std gearbox would say bye/bye at 260bhp and 26psi!) - before I got a Cossie
I've been in a Fiesta with similar power to those figures though
One with a modified V8 engine and 295 width rear tyres!, certainly interesting..., apart from the fact that the 'in-boot' petrol tank needed constant filling!
You probably know the 'old' guy that drives it - in his 40's and Lives in Dewsbury West Yorkshire - home of powerful Ford cars!
.... well counting my Escort Cosworth...... (with over 100lbs more torque than my Scooby!)
I think its about time that Craig got his car Dyno'd at 1.8 bar and then did a tour of the country to see whose RR is crapest
Not bad for an Escort RS?
You must have spent plenty on everything else. (The std gearbox would say bye/bye at 260bhp and 26psi!) - before I got a Cossie
I've been in a Fiesta with similar power to those figures though
One with a modified V8 engine and 295 width rear tyres!, certainly interesting..., apart from the fact that the 'in-boot' petrol tank needed constant filling!
You probably know the 'old' guy that drives it - in his 40's and Lives in Dewsbury West Yorkshire - home of powerful Ford cars!
.... well counting my Escort Cosworth...... (with over 100lbs more torque than my Scooby!)
I think its about time that Craig got his car Dyno'd at 1.8 bar and then did a tour of the country to see whose RR is crapest
19 November 2001, 01:31 PM
#16
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,842
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
19 November 2001, 02:03 PM
#21
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some dyno figures for you!!
*Click Here For Dyno Graph* *Click Here For Dyno Figures*
[Edited by Monte - 11/19/2001 2:08:33 PM]
*Click Here For Dyno Graph* *Click Here For Dyno Figures*
[Edited by Monte - 11/19/2001 2:08:33 PM]
19 November 2001, 02:15 PM
#22
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Another old saying, BHP sells cars, Torque wins races"
But Ive seen Tegs and other "no torque" cars stay with Scoobs and other big torque ones on a track.
How does that work then, if Torque wins races?
But Ive seen Tegs and other "no torque" cars stay with Scoobs and other big torque ones on a track.
How does that work then, if Torque wins races?
19 November 2001, 07:34 PM
#23
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: same time, different place
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
Good question; as a non-tecchie I'm interested in the reply too.
When I got my Terzo it could be frustrating after my 205 GTI, as I couldn't catch bits of acceleration to overtake over short stretches of country road. This improved as I learned how to use the rev range (I suppose "on boost" needs time to prime the boost, I just kicked down), but was still irritating. I know there's turbo lag too but that's another story.
I'm interested as I'm keeping an eye on the BMW 330D, which has a lower rev range than the scoob but more torque and double the range per tank. PPP alters the scoob's figures too. I haven't yet driven either 330D or PPP, but I'm curious as to the theory behind it all!
BJH
When I got my Terzo it could be frustrating after my 205 GTI, as I couldn't catch bits of acceleration to overtake over short stretches of country road. This improved as I learned how to use the rev range (I suppose "on boost" needs time to prime the boost, I just kicked down), but was still irritating. I know there's turbo lag too but that's another story.
I'm interested as I'm keeping an eye on the BMW 330D, which has a lower rev range than the scoob but more torque and double the range per tank. PPP alters the scoob's figures too. I haven't yet driven either 330D or PPP, but I'm curious as to the theory behind it all!
BJH
19 November 2001, 07:54 PM
#24
Scooby Regular
Torque is good..........I have about 340ftlb in my Cossie, so I can appreciate what kind of kick up the *** it gives you.
I have been told by a reliable source, that a mutal friend with a similiar torque curve to Mike Rainbirds 500+bhp Sierra (but 100bhp LESS), in his Escort Cossie, keeps up with Mikes car until well over the 100+mph mark (I mean well over)......at which point the Sierra starts to pull away. Hence the BIGGER bhp makes up for the EXTRA power at the top end.
Enough said............
BHP (in most circumstances) don't mean jack, if you aint got the appropriate torque to go with it.
I have been told by a reliable source, that a mutal friend with a similiar torque curve to Mike Rainbirds 500+bhp Sierra (but 100bhp LESS), in his Escort Cossie, keeps up with Mikes car until well over the 100+mph mark (I mean well over)......at which point the Sierra starts to pull away. Hence the BIGGER bhp makes up for the EXTRA power at the top end.
Enough said............
BHP (in most circumstances) don't mean jack, if you aint got the appropriate torque to go with it.
20 November 2001, 07:41 AM
#26
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 3,491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm a bit amazed with most of the answers ... BHP is a direct function of torque x rpm.
It all depends what you want to use the car for ?
Some cars have loads of torque very low down (they call 'm diesels ) but they run out of steam at higher (restricted) RPM. Other cars have very "common" torque, but because they rev so easily and go up to 8000 RPM+, they can stay with Imprezas (indeed: the Integra !). That's why the industry decided that for most cars peak BHP is a more telling number than peak torque.
A 350 lb Impreza would need a *BIG* turbo, which would kick in very late in the rev range (say 4000 RPM). To then only make 300 BHP, it would, like Sam said, be restricted (think WRC), and the torque would have to drop dramatically at say 6000 RPM. You would then have a car that does nothing to start with, gives you an enormous kick in the back and then becomes flat again (shredding the gearbox in the process ). It would be slower than a car with 300 lb that makes 350 BHP (but it would "feel" faster).
You would also need ALS to make it usefull on a rally stage BTW.
What you want is "as much white space as possible beneith the torque curve" for a road car.
Always agreed with the "they are for pub talk" comment.
If you want to know what you & your car can do in terms of power, Santa pod is a better measurement than a rolling road (and put those 16" wheels back on ). Or do some serious timing for 0-125 MPH.
It all depends what you want to use the car for ?
Some cars have loads of torque very low down (they call 'm diesels
) but they run out of steam at higher (restricted) RPM. Other cars have very "common" torque, but because they rev so easily and go up to 8000 RPM+, they can stay with Imprezas (indeed: the Integra !). That's why the industry decided that for most cars peak BHP is a more telling number than peak torque.A 350 lb Impreza would need a *BIG* turbo, which would kick in very late in the rev range (say 4000 RPM). To then only make 300 BHP, it would, like Sam said, be restricted (think WRC), and the torque would have to drop dramatically at say 6000 RPM. You would then have a car that does nothing to start with, gives you an enormous kick in the back and then becomes flat again (shredding the gearbox in the process
). It would be slower than a car with 300 lb that makes 350 BHP (but it would "feel" faster).You would also need ALS to make it usefull on a rally stage BTW.
What you want is "as much white space as possible beneith the torque curve" for a road car.
Always agreed with the "they are for pub talk" comment.
If you want to know what you & your car can do in terms of power, Santa pod is a better measurement than a rolling road (and put those 16" wheels back on
). Or do some serious timing for 0-125 MPH.
20 November 2001, 08:14 AM
#27
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 1,835
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back to the original question - Torque of course, no doubt, no question...
...in fact I don't even know why people, especially Andy Tang, bother even measuring BHP.
Just for the record, on Saturday, 299ft lb, peak at 3,900 (Andy your peak figure comes very late), with over 250ft lb from 3,500 to 7,000 rpm - probably why my car feels quite brisk
Trout
...in fact I don't even know why people, especially Andy Tang, bother even measuring BHP.
Just for the record, on Saturday, 299ft lb, peak at 3,900 (Andy your peak figure comes very late), with over 250ft lb from 3,500 to 7,000 rpm - probably why my car feels quite brisk
Trout
20 November 2001, 08:16 AM
#28
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 1,835
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...and in response to one of Evil Beivel comments....
....WRC cars have 300bhp and over 450ft lbs of torque - it depends on how the car is set up and the peak flow restrictions.
I'll take one of them thank you.
Trout
....WRC cars have 300bhp and over 450ft lbs of torque - it depends on how the car is set up and the peak flow restrictions.
I'll take one of them thank you.
Trout
20 November 2001, 08:34 AM
#29
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,999
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can help answer this one..
My 330d has a mere c187bhp but a fat 288lb/ft torque (with a table-top torque curve), and even with a lardy 'touring' bodyshell to carry, it can keep up with a friends Carrera 4 (once on the move).
At the other extreme, my westie has 140bhp (at c11500rpm
) but only 68lb/ft torque. Obviously the westie is a whole world faster (400kg - 350bhp/tonne ) but it is harder work to get the performance out - it only really comes alive at 6/7000rpm.
For outright performance, BHP has to be the one to have. Look at F1 cars. 850bhp, 250-300lb/ft. They are hardly slouches! But for real world, real everyday driving, a fat torque curve is far better IMO.
My 330d has a mere c187bhp but a fat 288lb/ft torque (with a table-top torque curve), and even with a lardy 'touring' bodyshell to carry, it can keep up with a friends Carrera 4 (once on the move).
At the other extreme, my westie has 140bhp (at c11500rpm
) but only 68lb/ft torque. Obviously the westie is a whole world faster (400kg - 350bhp/tonne ) but it is harder work to get the performance out - it only really comes alive at 6/7000rpm.For outright performance, BHP has to be the one to have. Look at F1 cars. 850bhp, 250-300lb/ft. They are hardly slouches! But for real world, real everyday driving, a fat torque curve is far better IMO.
20 November 2001, 08:37 AM
#30
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, and since I dont live in the real world most of the time anyway, mad revs, light body shell, and big(ish) BHP suits me fine, I say BHP all the way, torque is for tractors, BHP is for F1 cars
PS: Im joking about that, sensible combination of both is ideal, obvuously, they form the characteristics of the driving experience, and like the Westie/330D example shows, its about how you enjoy driving.
PS: Im joking about that, sensible combination of both is ideal, obvuously, they form the characteristics of the driving experience, and like the Westie/330D example shows, its about how you enjoy driving.