Prodrive downpipe for sale
19 September 2006, 10:26 AM
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Prodrive downpipe for sale
Having seen a few threads with owners mentioning that they've bought our downpipe to fit to their WRX or STi, this obviously means that somebody has either not fitted it as part of their STi PPP or subsequently removed it. There will be a reason for this so I'd like to understand why. Is it that the downpipe isn't felt to be good enough and we need to improve it or another reason such as the accepted wisdom being that more power is produced if you decat a Subaru?
Anyone got any ideas?
Regards
Mike
Anyone got any ideas?
Regards
Mike
19 September 2006, 10:43 AM
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I agree with you, there seems to be far too many of these units floating around.
I've bought one of these said units, brand new in wrapping for £200.
It fitted but only after a bit of fiddling and purchase of a spacer.
I cannot confirm this but I suspect that this was counterfeit. I haven't tested the cat for effectiveness yet, I guess that will come MOT time.
I've bought one of these said units, brand new in wrapping for £200.
It fitted but only after a bit of fiddling and purchase of a spacer.
I cannot confirm this but I suspect that this was counterfeit. I haven't tested the cat for effectiveness yet, I guess that will come MOT time.
19 September 2006, 10:43 AM
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Most replies to inquires about PPP downpipes have generally stuck up/rated it 
maybe it's more a compatbilty issue with a complete new stainless System !!
As Varboy said loads kicking around "New unused" dealer overstocked!! stock taking storeman
Tony
maybe it's more a compatbilty issue with a complete new stainless System !!As Varboy said loads kicking around "New unused" dealer overstocked!! stock taking storeman
Tony
Last edited by T5NYW; 19 September 2006 at 10:46 AM.
19 September 2006, 12:47 PM
#4
Mike, I know that you have put a lot of effort into R&D (probably far more than any after market exhaust maker) into the catted DP and it must be disheartening to see so many removed. I haven't seen anyone do a back to back test as such so it would be difficult to quantify but many combine the exhaust swap with a remap anyway so we'll never know. That is unless you want to publish your test results?
F
F
19 September 2006, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Varboy
I agree with you, there seems to be far too many of these units floating around.
I've bought one of these said units, brand new in wrapping for £200.
It fitted but only after a bit of fiddling and purchase of a spacer.
I cannot confirm this but I suspect that this was counterfeit. I haven't tested the cat for effectiveness yet, I guess that will come MOT time.
I've bought one of these said units, brand new in wrapping for £200.
It fitted but only after a bit of fiddling and purchase of a spacer.
I cannot confirm this but I suspect that this was counterfeit. I haven't tested the cat for effectiveness yet, I guess that will come MOT time.
Mike I think when the warranty ends they go for a larger diameter exhaust from cat back and I think the prodrive will become restrictive at and over 340 bhp, the pipe is either put away or sold on..You could do some tests on the prodrive downpipe and the new sports cat down pipe which most people are going for now?
Last edited by killa; 19 September 2006 at 02:46 PM.
19 September 2006, 02:14 PM
#7
I've bought & sold quite a few of the different types of Prodrive sports cat on Ebay but they have always been used ones.
I've not understood why (or how) new ones are knocking around.
The owners seem to be under the impression that a catalyst, no matter if std or high flow, will be some sort of major restriction.
I think this goes hand in hand with the dump valve mentality that a bit of whooshing noise will make the car faster.
Mike,
I know sometime ago that you mentioned the original model Prodrive sports cat flowed as well as a decat - if there was some documentation on sports cats vs decat flow & backpressure then this may open a few eyes.
I kept one of the newer open mouth PD sports cats on my WRX and it offered no flow restriction in getting to 350 bhp.
Perhaps some of the tuners around the country could give some of their experience in tuning with them.
Nick
I've not understood why (or how) new ones are knocking around.
The owners seem to be under the impression that a catalyst, no matter if std or high flow, will be some sort of major restriction.
I think this goes hand in hand with the dump valve mentality that a bit of whooshing noise will make the car faster.
Mike,
I know sometime ago that you mentioned the original model Prodrive sports cat flowed as well as a decat - if there was some documentation on sports cats vs decat flow & backpressure then this may open a few eyes.
I kept one of the newer open mouth PD sports cats on my WRX and it offered no flow restriction in getting to 350 bhp.
Perhaps some of the tuners around the country could give some of their experience in tuning with them.
Nick
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19 September 2006, 02:41 PM
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i still have mine...in the garage
i found it restictive with noise and acceleration improving on removal,most mappers seem to want to decat or use their own cat as otherwise they will not guarantee their bhp/torque figures so most people get it removed
martin
i found it restictive with noise and acceleration improving on removal,most mappers seem to want to decat or use their own cat as otherwise they will not guarantee their bhp/torque figures so most people get it removed
martin
19 September 2006, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by p1doc
i still have mine...in the garage
i found it restictive with noise and acceleration improving on removal,most mappers seem to want to decat or use their own cat as otherwise they will not guarantee their bhp/torque figures so most people get it removed
martin
i found it restictive with noise and acceleration improving on removal,most mappers seem to want to decat or use their own cat as otherwise they will not guarantee their bhp/torque figures so most people get it removed
martin
19 September 2006, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeWood
Having seen a few threads with owners mentioning that they've bought our downpipe to fit to their WRX or STi, this obviously means that somebody has either not fitted it as part of their STi PPP or subsequently removed it. There will be a reason for this so I'd like to understand why. Is it that the downpipe isn't felt to be good enough and we need to improve it or another reason such as the accepted wisdom being that more power is produced if you decat a Subaru?
Anyone got any ideas?
Regards
Mike
Anyone got any ideas?
Regards
Mike
Simon
20 September 2006, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by killa
The reason you needed a spacer was because you must have fitted it to a wrx right the wrx has a td04 turbo, the prodrive down pipe was designed to fit the vf35 and slots into the turbo exhaust housing area and fits nicely, hope that helps why it did not fit into your car properly,
Mike I think when the warranty ends they go for a larger diameter exhaust from cat back and I think the prodrive will become restrictive at and over 340 bhp, the pipe is either put away or sold on..You could do some tests on the prodrive downpipe and the new sports cat down pipe which most people are going for now?
Mike I think when the warranty ends they go for a larger diameter exhaust from cat back and I think the prodrive will become restrictive at and over 340 bhp, the pipe is either put away or sold on..You could do some tests on the prodrive downpipe and the new sports cat down pipe which most people are going for now?
20 September 2006, 10:44 AM
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Varboy
I guess that'll be one that was never fitted in the first place, doubtful it was counterfeit but may not have fitted properly as I guess you've fitted it to a WRX. It will pass an MOT quite easily if it's tested warm as it should be.
Tony
The dealers shouldn't be in a position to have them 'in stock' unless the dealer is misguidedly fitting the rest of a PPP with a different exhaust. The kit only goes out to the dealer against an order that's specific to a particular chassis number, there aren't enough base ECU's in the exchange system to do it any other way.
Floyd
It is indeed disheartening and would seem to be a function of the usual blanket "the best way to improve the performance on a Subaru is decat it" mentality that exists in the aftermarket as most companies have no facility to remap the ECU and just supply a 'commodity' decat exhaust.
If you have a standard car it may true, but there are some fairly major issues with that.
1. The standard downpipe design isn't optimal but we still get 320ps through it for the 2.5STi PPP. It's the same basic cat on a 2.0 WRX with 225ps (265ps with PPP) so is it the major issue that's holding back performance? Probably not.
2. Changing the downpipe design will need recalibration to be safe but even with a recalibration, fitting an exhaust with too little backpressure on a UK STi will lead to boost creep and even 0% wastegate duty at high rpm still allows more boost than is good for the turbo. Good for power but the ECU has no control over what's happening and it's so far off the efficiency map of the turbine that it's just pumping hot air.
3. Having no cat is illegal
4. Having an exhaust system on your car that isn't homologated is illegal
5. Having an exhaust that is too noisy is illegal
6. Fitting anything other than the full PPP WILL void the vehicle's warranty
As has been discussed previously, a propely designed metallic substrate cat of the appropriate size gives absolutely no restriction to exhaust gas flow. Our cat is 125mm in diameter, has approximately 15% of the face blocked by the metallic element so you'll need a straight pipe over 100mm in diameter to flow as much. Even a 3" pipe will flow less than half the gas flow of the cat so fitted in a 2.5" system, the cat isn't going to be the restrictive part!
killa
We've seen rather more power than 340bhp using our downpipe recently. The turbo itself on a 2.0STi provides more of a power limitation.
GC8
The early cat uses a separate jacket type covereing to keep the heat away from other components in the engine bay such as steering coupling and bulkhead and isn't fitted just to keep the heat in. As the cat needs very high temperatures to get it working, the effect of radiated heat is much less pronounced than the cooling effect of the gas flowing through it.
Later ones have an integral heatshield that's welded on so there's less chance of it getting damaged in service. As with all our exhaust components they are stainless steel.
Regards
Mike
I guess that'll be one that was never fitted in the first place, doubtful it was counterfeit but may not have fitted properly as I guess you've fitted it to a WRX. It will pass an MOT quite easily if it's tested warm as it should be.
Tony
The dealers shouldn't be in a position to have them 'in stock' unless the dealer is misguidedly fitting the rest of a PPP with a different exhaust. The kit only goes out to the dealer against an order that's specific to a particular chassis number, there aren't enough base ECU's in the exchange system to do it any other way.
Floyd
It is indeed disheartening and would seem to be a function of the usual blanket "the best way to improve the performance on a Subaru is decat it" mentality that exists in the aftermarket as most companies have no facility to remap the ECU and just supply a 'commodity' decat exhaust.
If you have a standard car it may true, but there are some fairly major issues with that.
1. The standard downpipe design isn't optimal but we still get 320ps through it for the 2.5STi PPP. It's the same basic cat on a 2.0 WRX with 225ps (265ps with PPP) so is it the major issue that's holding back performance? Probably not.
2. Changing the downpipe design will need recalibration to be safe but even with a recalibration, fitting an exhaust with too little backpressure on a UK STi will lead to boost creep and even 0% wastegate duty at high rpm still allows more boost than is good for the turbo. Good for power but the ECU has no control over what's happening and it's so far off the efficiency map of the turbine that it's just pumping hot air.
3. Having no cat is illegal
4. Having an exhaust system on your car that isn't homologated is illegal
5. Having an exhaust that is too noisy is illegal
6. Fitting anything other than the full PPP WILL void the vehicle's warranty
As has been discussed previously, a propely designed metallic substrate cat of the appropriate size gives absolutely no restriction to exhaust gas flow. Our cat is 125mm in diameter, has approximately 15% of the face blocked by the metallic element so you'll need a straight pipe over 100mm in diameter to flow as much. Even a 3" pipe will flow less than half the gas flow of the cat so fitted in a 2.5" system, the cat isn't going to be the restrictive part!
killa
We've seen rather more power than 340bhp using our downpipe recently. The turbo itself on a 2.0STi provides more of a power limitation.
GC8
The early cat uses a separate jacket type covereing to keep the heat away from other components in the engine bay such as steering coupling and bulkhead and isn't fitted just to keep the heat in. As the cat needs very high temperatures to get it working, the effect of radiated heat is much less pronounced than the cooling effect of the gas flowing through it.
Later ones have an integral heatshield that's welded on so there's less chance of it getting damaged in service. As with all our exhaust components they are stainless steel.
Regards
Mike
20 September 2006, 11:04 AM
#14
Originally Posted by AC-scoobie
Don't TSL keep the Prodrive pipe if you have it when going for their 333 package?
Surely it can't be that restrictive?
Surely it can't be that restrictive?
JohnD
20 September 2006, 11:24 AM
#15
3. Having no cat is illegal - I thought only if emissions were not met?
4. Having an exhaust system on your car that isn't homologated is illegal - as is nearly all aftermaket accessories but I don't see trading standards taking an active role here.
All other points accepted.
F
4. Having an exhaust system on your car that isn't homologated is illegal - as is nearly all aftermaket accessories but I don't see trading standards taking an active role here.
All other points accepted.
F
20 September 2006, 11:53 AM
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Floyd
3 & 4 are basically the same issue, if you change the exhaust and it's not homologated ie passed noise and emissions tests, then it's illegal. If you have a non E-marked bike silencer you expect to be nicked if you are stopped and the same rules apply to cars. The only difference are that it's rather easier to see on a bike and it's a simple way of a Police Officer giving you a ticket as you ride one of those anti-social motor cycle things that go too fast.......
3 & 4 are basically the same issue, if you change the exhaust and it's not homologated ie passed noise and emissions tests, then it's illegal. If you have a non E-marked bike silencer you expect to be nicked if you are stopped and the same rules apply to cars. The only difference are that it's rather easier to see on a bike and it's a simple way of a Police Officer giving you a ticket as you ride one of those anti-social motor cycle things that go too fast.......
20 September 2006, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeWood
4. Having an exhaust system on your car that isn't homologated is illegal
5. Having an exhaust that is too noisy is illegal
Are PPP exhaust systems are now homologated as they may not have been Prior to the Scotland case?
Tony
20 September 2006, 12:46 PM
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Mike,
As it would appear that you are selling one of the only 'legal' exhaust components would it not make sense to make these avaiable outside of PPP
You have already indentified that there is a thriving market for them
As it would appear that you are selling one of the only 'legal' exhaust components would it not make sense to make these avaiable outside of PPP
You have already indentified that there is a thriving market for them
20 September 2006, 01:10 PM
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Tony
For 06MY the packages have National Type Approval which means that (subject to various conformity standards) they can be fitted pre-registration for the first time. Previously we had only been able to fit them post registration but the exhaust silencers have all passed the required tests to get them e-marked as required for replacement parts, just the same as bikes. Not sure that anybody else in the UK has even submitted their exhausts for testing, never mind passing.
The problem is of course that some customers find our exhausts too quiet for them and subsequently decide to fit something noisier. As they are at the legal limit in the first place, this just makes the car illegal.
amahrap
We do under the WRSport banner sell an e-marked silencer for all Impreza and most Legacy models. The only problem is that some people find that they are too quiet..........
For 06MY the packages have National Type Approval which means that (subject to various conformity standards) they can be fitted pre-registration for the first time. Previously we had only been able to fit them post registration but the exhaust silencers have all passed the required tests to get them e-marked as required for replacement parts, just the same as bikes. Not sure that anybody else in the UK has even submitted their exhausts for testing, never mind passing.
The problem is of course that some customers find our exhausts too quiet for them and subsequently decide to fit something noisier. As they are at the legal limit in the first place, this just makes the car illegal.
amahrap
We do under the WRSport banner sell an e-marked silencer for all Impreza and most Legacy models. The only problem is that some people find that they are too quiet..........
20 September 2006, 01:42 PM
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PTMW
Anything that would fit a UK car such as WRSport rear silencer, 330mm brake kit, suspension kit, a number of 17" wheels, quickshift, rear spoiler, driving lamps.........
Mike
Anything that would fit a UK car such as WRSport rear silencer, 330mm brake kit, suspension kit, a number of 17" wheels, quickshift, rear spoiler, driving lamps.........
Mike
20 September 2006, 02:19 PM
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I have a link for a firm making CF door cards and cabin floor liners somewhere but I cant find it on this PC. Let me know if youre interested.
For starters Id remove the spare wheel and tools and treat the tyres; remove the aircon and swap the EWs for winders off a GL. Then Id remove all of the cabin carpets and strip the mastic sound deadening..... If you enjoy the noise you can lose the carpets altogether and line the front floors.
Simon
For starters Id remove the spare wheel and tools and treat the tyres; remove the aircon and swap the EWs for winders off a GL. Then Id remove all of the cabin carpets and strip the mastic sound deadening..... If you enjoy the noise you can lose the carpets altogether and line the front floors.
Simon
20 September 2006, 02:29 PM
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PTMW
We don't, but the dealers don't need to know what it's being fitted to.
P1 lip spoiler doesn't fit earlier front bumpers.................
Mike
We don't, but the dealers don't need to know what it's being fitted to.
P1 lip spoiler doesn't fit earlier front bumpers.................
Mike
20 September 2006, 02:49 PM
#27
Originally Posted by GC8
I have a link for a firm making CF door cards and cabin floor liners somewhere but I cant find it on this PC. Let me know if youre interested.
For starters Id remove the spare wheel and tools and treat the tyres; remove the aircon and swap the EWs for winders off a GL. Then Id remove all of the cabin carpets and strip the mastic sound deadening..... If you enjoy the noise you can lose the carpets altogether and line the front floors.
Simon
For starters Id remove the spare wheel and tools and treat the tyres; remove the aircon and swap the EWs for winders off a GL. Then Id remove all of the cabin carpets and strip the mastic sound deadening..... If you enjoy the noise you can lose the carpets altogether and line the front floors.
Simon
Ah - would be good.
I don't actually have EWs
20 September 2006, 03:38 PM
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amahrap
The thing is that it needs to be fitted with the rest of a high flow exhaust system to see some proper benefits and would need the ECU remapping as well as a higher flow fuel pump to make sure enough fuel is delivered. Sound familiar??
Mike
The thing is that it needs to be fitted with the rest of a high flow exhaust system to see some proper benefits and would need the ECU remapping as well as a higher flow fuel pump to make sure enough fuel is delivered. Sound familiar??
Mike