Are BMWs rubbish?
24 October 2000, 12:02 AM
#1
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Nick - just watch what you buy - we blew up our 340bhp m5 with only 65k on the clock - 11grand repair bill and we only drove it hard - not absolute abuse!
Was bloody good fun though!
Martin
Was bloody good fun though!
Martin
24 October 2000, 12:03 AM
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I've got a new style 523i and think its great, no sports car but you can do big miles in plenty of comfort which is what I needed. I've had a E220 in the past but prefer the 523 I have now, possibly as it has a better specification than the E220 I had.
I think we need to keep a good dose of reality , some cars are better at some things than others. A car cannot be everything everyday. If we thought like that we'd all drive Transit vans. IMHO
I think we need to keep a good dose of reality , some cars are better at some things than others. A car cannot be everything everyday. If we thought like that we'd all drive Transit vans. IMHO
24 October 2000, 12:25 AM
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11k?? Oh my gawd and I thought 2.2k for an exhaust was bad.
If the car was still under BMW warranty then I guess they would at least help with the bill. The problem would be where a car was bought privately, has no BMW warranty and is perhaps not even serviced within the dealer network.
I suppose it is all about peace of mind. I extended the signature warranty on my E220 twice (at a cost of 650+ GBP per year) just for that extra peace of mind. Good job, too, as claims under warranty exceeded that amount. Although, I suppose I could have gone to a local specialist and got the repairs done at about half the cost.
Are any of these 3rd party warranties any good? (Although somehow I cannot see them being keen to cover a 5 year old M5 with perhaps a mileage of 150K for a couple of hundred quid a year. Especially, when a new engine might cost 11K!)
C
If the car was still under BMW warranty then I guess they would at least help with the bill. The problem would be where a car was bought privately, has no BMW warranty and is perhaps not even serviced within the dealer network.
I suppose it is all about peace of mind. I extended the signature warranty on my E220 twice (at a cost of 650+ GBP per year) just for that extra peace of mind. Good job, too, as claims under warranty exceeded that amount. Although, I suppose I could have gone to a local specialist and got the repairs done at about half the cost.
Are any of these 3rd party warranties any good? (Although somehow I cannot see them being keen to cover a 5 year old M5 with perhaps a mileage of 150K for a couple of hundred quid a year. Especially, when a new engine might cost 11K!)
C
24 October 2000, 12:27 AM
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Compression on 3 cylinders was very low and it made a lower than expected value on the rollers - 265 @wheels. Car got worse very quick so we booked it in with BMW garage. They also found very poor compression so pulled it to bits. 2 pistons were wrecked and there was very bad bore wear on some of the bores but not all. Cure was a whole new engine from germany with full fitting cost equaling 11k - but....BMW picked up the bill even though it was an older car (not a warrentee job) and it is thought a manufacturing fault caused the wear and there has been other cases of this happening with the 3.8.
Dont get me wrong - it was one of the best cars I have ever driven and I never wanted it to go but this did happen. I would call it bad luck and if you are looking at cars you should be able to tell if it is healthy or not by comparing a few.
Dont let it put you off
Martin
Dont get me wrong - it was one of the best cars I have ever driven and I never wanted it to go but this did happen. I would call it bad luck and if you are looking at cars you should be able to tell if it is healthy or not by comparing a few.
Dont let it put you off
Martin
24 October 2000, 12:35 AM
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Bajie
I know what you mean. Every single prestige dealer I have had dealings with have all seemed to be business men first and foremost and then car enthusiasts second (with some of them not even being enthusiasts at all)
I cannot understand this at all. I recall buying my 2nd BMW. It had to go back 2 weeks later as the brakes were constantly noisy. At that time, they cheerfully announced it needed 2 new rear tyres and a new clutch. I pointed out that their prepertion techniques obviously left a little to be desired. They quickly remembered I was a new customer and sorted it. It left a bitter taste in my mouth though. Especially since they tried to stitch me up.
At the end of the day, they are in business to maximise their profits and they don't maximise their profits by spending money fixing cars free of charge. They won't get my money again.
C
[This message has been edited by ca (edited 24 October 2000).]
I know what you mean. Every single prestige dealer I have had dealings with have all seemed to be business men first and foremost and then car enthusiasts second (with some of them not even being enthusiasts at all)
I cannot understand this at all. I recall buying my 2nd BMW. It had to go back 2 weeks later as the brakes were constantly noisy. At that time, they cheerfully announced it needed 2 new rear tyres and a new clutch. I pointed out that their prepertion techniques obviously left a little to be desired. They quickly remembered I was a new customer and sorted it. It left a bitter taste in my mouth though. Especially since they tried to stitch me up.
At the end of the day, they are in business to maximise their profits and they don't maximise their profits by spending money fixing cars free of charge. They won't get my money again.
C
[This message has been edited by ca (edited 24 October 2000).]
24 October 2000, 12:38 AM
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An an aside, when one sees a car advertised for sale with something like....
'80K mileage with FSH but only 10K on a new engine fitted by manufacturer'
Is this seen as a positive or a negative?
C.
'80K mileage with FSH but only 10K on a new engine fitted by manufacturer'
Is this seen as a positive or a negative?
C.
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24 October 2000, 12:55 AM
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Ca,
IMHO it would depend on why the engine was replaced - manufacturing problem, failure to service properly, accident damage are three reasons that spring to mind.
Also, if the engine has been replaced by a main dealer will it have the corresponding warranty as a new car carries, ie: 3 year, 60,000 miles as if bought from new ?
Yex
IMHO it would depend on why the engine was replaced - manufacturing problem, failure to service properly, accident damage are three reasons that spring to mind.
Also, if the engine has been replaced by a main dealer will it have the corresponding warranty as a new car carries, ie: 3 year, 60,000 miles as if bought from new ?
Yex
24 October 2000, 09:16 AM
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A lot of posts in the last few days have been incredibly derogatory towards BMWs and their drivers.
As a neutral, I'd like to put a slightly different viewpoint. I can't think it's a surprise to hear that there are a lot of people who want a car which is smooth, comfortable, has a good resale value regardless of the state of the market, and has a positive image. All of these things are offered by the BMW range, especially the 3-series, which has astonishingly low depreciation.
Most BMW drivers, to be sure, are anything but the hard-core adrenaline junkies that Scooby drivers like to think they are ... but then I truly wonder how many Imprezas are driven that hard. Some, sure, but not as many as you might think.
It's probably as true of the Impreza as it is of the 3-series that the car is bought at least partially on image .... some people buy a car with a hard man reputation in the same way as others buy rottweilers, and if it wasn't the case with the Scoob, it is now. I know a 45 year old bloke, who has no interest in driving, who has recently bought a bog-stock MY00. He freely admits that it's because "people look at me and think I must be a bit quick." He's one of the slowest and worst drivers I know.
I'm a dedicated car and bike fanatic. Always have been, probably always will be. The one car I've lusted afted for a good number of years (and look set to own quite soon)is an M5, mainly because it's immensely fast, handles incredibly well, and doesn't advertise its presence. Something else that appeals is that very few people want an M5 - they're not available as an auto, and cost a lot to run. This means that (unlike most BMWs) they depreciate like a falling log, and you can buy a very good one for sub £10k, and a fantastic one for £15k. So for the same money as a shagged Scoob (and a lot of them are at this level) you could have a 340hp, RWD supersaloon.
For me, there's no comparison, especially when you consider that the M5 would actually cost less to insure than even a stock UK model Scoob. Petrol costs are the same, maybe fractionally in the BMW's favour, with servicing being the only real bugbear.
For me there's no contest - sure the Scoob offers more adrenaline, but if I need a total speed fix I take one of the bikes out. For 95% of normal driving, an M5 offers far mor than a Scoob can, and has the advantage of being a totally practical family car as well.
And nobody will ever accuse me of being a boy racer!
Nick
(just off to buy a nice flame-resistant suit)
As a neutral, I'd like to put a slightly different viewpoint. I can't think it's a surprise to hear that there are a lot of people who want a car which is smooth, comfortable, has a good resale value regardless of the state of the market, and has a positive image. All of these things are offered by the BMW range, especially the 3-series, which has astonishingly low depreciation.
Most BMW drivers, to be sure, are anything but the hard-core adrenaline junkies that Scooby drivers like to think they are ... but then I truly wonder how many Imprezas are driven that hard. Some, sure, but not as many as you might think.
It's probably as true of the Impreza as it is of the 3-series that the car is bought at least partially on image .... some people buy a car with a hard man reputation in the same way as others buy rottweilers, and if it wasn't the case with the Scoob, it is now. I know a 45 year old bloke, who has no interest in driving, who has recently bought a bog-stock MY00. He freely admits that it's because "people look at me and think I must be a bit quick." He's one of the slowest and worst drivers I know.
I'm a dedicated car and bike fanatic. Always have been, probably always will be. The one car I've lusted afted for a good number of years (and look set to own quite soon)is an M5, mainly because it's immensely fast, handles incredibly well, and doesn't advertise its presence. Something else that appeals is that very few people want an M5 - they're not available as an auto, and cost a lot to run. This means that (unlike most BMWs) they depreciate like a falling log, and you can buy a very good one for sub £10k, and a fantastic one for £15k. So for the same money as a shagged Scoob (and a lot of them are at this level) you could have a 340hp, RWD supersaloon.
For me, there's no comparison, especially when you consider that the M5 would actually cost less to insure than even a stock UK model Scoob. Petrol costs are the same, maybe fractionally in the BMW's favour, with servicing being the only real bugbear.
For me there's no contest - sure the Scoob offers more adrenaline, but if I need a total speed fix I take one of the bikes out. For 95% of normal driving, an M5 offers far mor than a Scoob can, and has the advantage of being a totally practical family car as well.
And nobody will ever accuse me of being a boy racer!
Nick
(just off to buy a nice flame-resistant suit)
24 October 2000, 10:13 AM
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I (and the rest of my family) have been very unimpressed with BMW. Especially the 5 series.
Now mercedes, thats a different matter. If you want all the things that you claim people want, buy a Merc, there is no comparison.
I know they cost a few quid more, but worth more than that.
M5 cheaper to insure? Are you sure!?
robski
Now mercedes, thats a different matter. If you want all the things that you claim people want, buy a Merc, there is no comparison.
I know they cost a few quid more, but worth more than that.
M5 cheaper to insure? Are you sure!?
robski
24 October 2000, 10:15 AM
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Rannoch,
I'm relatively neutral on this because
1 I have driven and enjoyed both Imprezas and M-series BMWs, but own neither
2 I judge a car on it's abilities rather than on the badge
3 I don't judge the driver based on what they drive, but on the way they drive
Neutral? Maybe not, but less biased than most.
Droner
I'm relatively neutral on this because
1 I have driven and enjoyed both Imprezas and M-series BMWs, but own neither
2 I judge a car on it's abilities rather than on the badge
3 I don't judge the driver based on what they drive, but on the way they drive
Neutral? Maybe not, but less biased than most.
Droner
24 October 2000, 10:34 AM
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Robski
I haven't done a lot of checking around, but I can get a M5 3.8 insured for £865, with a quote for an Impreza at £70 more. Obviously different companies will give different quotes.
And yes, I'm as surprised as you were!
Nick
I haven't done a lot of checking around, but I can get a M5 3.8 insured for £865, with a quote for an Impreza at £70 more. Obviously different companies will give different quotes.
And yes, I'm as surprised as you were!
Nick
24 October 2000, 10:54 AM
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I owned a 1990 BMW M5 for about 18 months back in 1995/6. Big fuel bills, big tyre bills (350+ per corner, back then) it needed a complete new exhaust, 2.2K was my local BMW dealer's quote. I thinkn this was the main factor that caused me to get rid of it. I just couldn't stomach paying so much for an exhaust.
I bought it on 77K and traded it in for my current Mercedes (an E220) at 93K.
Downside? well, I didn't think it was very forgiving - I managed to lose it (but thanksfully rescued it in one piece) round a damp roundabout which had a sudden change of camber. Plus it goes without saying that it was an absolute nightmare to drive in snow/ice.
Insurance back then (when I was 24) was a mere 3.3K gulp!!
Another factor in getting rid of it was that my girlfriend at the time (now wife) was learning to drive and I didn't fancy having her driving such a powerful car once she passed her test.
With hindsight, I should have kept the car, taken the hit on the exhaust cost and enjoyed it a bit more.
I don't think I would have another one (I really think I like the auto box too much now) but I might consider a 540 V8 touring or somethign like that at some point. This is despite saying that I wouldn't buy another BMW. I would, its just that I would not go anywhere near a BMW dealer.
Robski,
I have had truly terrible experiences with both BMW dealers and Mercedes dealers. I would not buy another Mercedes period (although I love the one I have currently got) purely on the basis of my treatment by dealers.
C
I bought it on 77K and traded it in for my current Mercedes (an E220) at 93K.
Downside? well, I didn't think it was very forgiving - I managed to lose it (but thanksfully rescued it in one piece) round a damp roundabout which had a sudden change of camber. Plus it goes without saying that it was an absolute nightmare to drive in snow/ice.
Insurance back then (when I was 24) was a mere 3.3K gulp!!
Another factor in getting rid of it was that my girlfriend at the time (now wife) was learning to drive and I didn't fancy having her driving such a powerful car once she passed her test.
With hindsight, I should have kept the car, taken the hit on the exhaust cost and enjoyed it a bit more.
I don't think I would have another one (I really think I like the auto box too much now) but I might consider a 540 V8 touring or somethign like that at some point. This is despite saying that I wouldn't buy another BMW. I would, its just that I would not go anywhere near a BMW dealer.
Robski,
I have had truly terrible experiences with both BMW dealers and Mercedes dealers. I would not buy another Mercedes period (although I love the one I have currently got) purely on the basis of my treatment by dealers.
C
24 October 2000, 11:04 AM
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As with all makes the dealers are variable,, but I thought we were talking about the cars?
NickF, are you talking like for like cars, i.e. same age etc etc, cos it doesnt stack up to me, not letting on where he works...
robski
NickF, are you talking like for like cars, i.e. same age etc etc, cos it doesnt stack up to me, not letting on where he works...
robski
24 October 2000, 11:23 AM
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Dealers are an important part of the whole car ownership experience.
I had a fully loaded Mercedes 220CE.
Everything about this car was right. I hated getting it serviced. The price was expensive, but I knew this. But the attitude of the people you have to deal with is absolutely attrocious.
Personally, I don't mind spending the money, but I believe I deserve a certain level of respect. Merc and BMW dealers are sadly lacking in this department.
I look forward to being proved wrong, but if last Sunday [30mins in Milcar of Stanmore with no acknowledgement] is anything to go by the future doesn't look good.
I had a fully loaded Mercedes 220CE.
Everything about this car was right. I hated getting it serviced. The price was expensive, but I knew this. But the attitude of the people you have to deal with is absolutely attrocious.
Personally, I don't mind spending the money, but I believe I deserve a certain level of respect. Merc and BMW dealers are sadly lacking in this department.
I look forward to being proved wrong, but if last Sunday [30mins in Milcar of Stanmore with no acknowledgement] is anything to go by the future doesn't look good.
24 October 2000, 11:29 AM
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Robski,
Used to work for Ford, now work in a totally unrelated field, so no axe to grind there. And no, I don't work in insurance either!
Insurance costs were based on me paying £15k for a car. If I spent that sum on an M5, I'd get a 1995 Nurburgring 6-speed model. The same money would buy me an MY99 UK Scoob, so that's what I got quotes for.
A lot of insurance companies are getting incredibly wound up about Imprezas, due to the high theft rate and the fact that they traditionally tend to be driven relatively hard by younginsh men. The M5 doesn't attract so much attention (less likely to be nicked, though you stil need a cat 1 alarm for a decent quote)and tends to be driven less hard, mainly because the owners are older.
ca,
I take on board everything you say about running costs - scary price for an exhaust, but not entirely surprising. Then again, there are some good owners groups and a reasonable number of specialists. But God help me if I buy one and the engine fails ...... a new one is in the £10k range
Nick
Used to work for Ford, now work in a totally unrelated field, so no axe to grind there. And no, I don't work in insurance either!
Insurance costs were based on me paying £15k for a car. If I spent that sum on an M5, I'd get a 1995 Nurburgring 6-speed model. The same money would buy me an MY99 UK Scoob, so that's what I got quotes for.
A lot of insurance companies are getting incredibly wound up about Imprezas, due to the high theft rate and the fact that they traditionally tend to be driven relatively hard by younginsh men. The M5 doesn't attract so much attention (less likely to be nicked, though you stil need a cat 1 alarm for a decent quote)and tends to be driven less hard, mainly because the owners are older.
ca,
I take on board everything you say about running costs - scary price for an exhaust, but not entirely surprising. Then again, there are some good owners groups and a reasonable number of specialists. But God help me if I buy one and the engine fails ...... a new one is in the £10k range
Nick
24 October 2000, 11:33 AM
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I agree with Robski - Mercs are more refined, are significantly less fatiguing to drive long distances, have bulletproof residuals (A-class discounted on all fronts), don't break down, aren't driven by to55ers and have dealers who will give you the time of day.
Oh, and they are pretty cheap to insure too!
So, where does that leave BMW - a more 'sporting' drive - possibly (but what about the new C class) and if you want a sporting drive then why not buy a sporting car, like a sorted Scoob, Evo, Elise, Exige......?
I only say this as I have had an Sti and a BMW coupe concurrently and now have a Merc CLK. When I had the BMW I never drove it. With the Merc, it is a perfect complement to the Scoob
R
Oh, and they are pretty cheap to insure too!
So, where does that leave BMW - a more 'sporting' drive - possibly (but what about the new C class) and if you want a sporting drive then why not buy a sporting car, like a sorted Scoob, Evo, Elise, Exige......?
I only say this as I have had an Sti and a BMW coupe concurrently and now have a Merc CLK. When I had the BMW I never drove it. With the Merc, it is a perfect complement to the Scoob
R
24 October 2000, 11:36 AM
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A while back I wanted a BMW 5 series and tested the M5 and 535 sport - the M5 seemed only a little quicker, and you had to really work the engine hard to get it. I got the 535 in the end. But insurance even for the 535 was higher than the scooby ! I lost huge amounts of money compared to the Subaru I sold at a similar time and the car was so much heavier and less satisfying to drive. Practical family car - I dont think so - we used the scooby (5dr) all the time as nothing fitted into the 5 series boot !
It would take alot to try BMW again.
It would take alot to try BMW again.
24 October 2000, 01:18 PM
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NickF,
usually a good discount for cars over 3-4 years old, thats probably whats making your quote lower for the M5.
I will spell it out I do work in Insurance, and cant be bothered to find the exact details for a M5, but they were previously listed as a higher group, although I am not sure about their claims experience.
Another point that I cannot believe is what Mercedes do to their engines that make them soooo economical and yet powerful, there must be some very serious engineering in there that all the other manufacturers should look at. Put it this way, did 1000 mile round trip to france and back, merc 2 litre, 4 people, fully laden with air con on for about 900 miles used less fuel than a 1.6 litre diesel rover with 2 people much less luggage and no aircon. My dads previous 5 series literally guzzled petrol, made the scoob seem positively tee total in comparison. Its a BMW tank built for autobarns. Actually, I think it was about the same weight as a tiger tank.
robski
usually a good discount for cars over 3-4 years old, thats probably whats making your quote lower for the M5.
I will spell it out I do work in Insurance, and cant be bothered to find the exact details for a M5, but they were previously listed as a higher group, although I am not sure about their claims experience.
Another point that I cannot believe is what Mercedes do to their engines that make them soooo economical and yet powerful, there must be some very serious engineering in there that all the other manufacturers should look at. Put it this way, did 1000 mile round trip to france and back, merc 2 litre, 4 people, fully laden with air con on for about 900 miles used less fuel than a 1.6 litre diesel rover with 2 people much less luggage and no aircon. My dads previous 5 series literally guzzled petrol, made the scoob seem positively tee total in comparison. Its a BMW tank built for autobarns. Actually, I think it was about the same weight as a tiger tank.
robski
24 October 2000, 04:49 PM
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Owned and driven both Mercedes and BMW, the conclusion is that if u're a passenger, the Merc is better, but if u're the driver then BMW is the better car.
The new C-class is still no match compared to the E46, the driving position in the new C is not as good as the BMW and some of the materials used is quite low rent.
The new C-class is still no match compared to the E46, the driving position in the new C is not as good as the BMW and some of the materials used is quite low rent.
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