[Davey]

It amazes me how long Subaru have kept the same engine design and layout, there are not many particular makes that you can pick a model from 1992, look under the bonnet then pick a model from 2006 and find the same basic engine and ancillary layout under the bonnet..

This obviously makes good business sense though... As a car gets older the parts tend to get cheaper and manufacturers and pattern part produces charge a premium for items for newer cars thats just a fact of life!

But with the Impreza the basic engine has stayed the same and thus have most of the parts and ancillaries, this means the prices for parts have remained very high even though they are not any more expensive to produce, there also seems to be a broad scale of prices from different suppliers for example 3 auto factors wanted £56+vat for a track rod end when another wanted £21+vat for the same part, now this isnt a complex part or difficult to produce so why the massive range in price?? This has been the same for most other parts..

As for the dealers prices they are obviously through the roof and dealers pricing structures differ from motorfactors, older parts (that have been stored for a long period or produced on special runs) tend to command a higher retail price even though the quality is no different to that from a motorfactor. Yet people still feel inclined to buy OEM stuff even for cars that have no warranty?

And lets look at servicing and maintainence costs! There seems to be some mysterious dark art surrounding this subject, a lot of people in the trade make out that Imprezas are difficult to work on, but they are not, infact they are a hell of a lot easier to work on than many modern cars on the market with much more complex engines. People charging up to £700 to change a cambelt that will take a pro no more than 1 hour is just a complete and utter joke! But people will pay it??

And people quoting £2,000 for an engine rebuild is verging on the border of insanity, if you take a 1995 cavalier, with a 2.0 16v 20XE engine its no less complex than the EJ20 subaru engine but you wont be paying £2k for a rebuild! You'll be looking at a few hundred quid! Plus the engine is harder to remove and refit..

Now the business sense part, if you take your 95 Impreza to subaru as far as they are concerned its roughly the same as the modern equivilent so you pay the equivilent prices when it comes to work even though the engine is an old and farmiliar design that the mechanics should know like the back of their hand. But every other dealership gets away with pulling down the pants of customers with newish cars so why shouldnt they AND get the chance to spank owners of older cars at the same time??

Not sure if any of this makes sense but the whole "Mystical magical" shroud surrounding the Impreza really PISSES me off! There are thousands of people getting ripped off just because they believe that the car is some how special and requires some highly trained pro to work on it??

wrxtankie

Beetle engine

RON

The mini ran from 1959 to 2001/2 with the same basic powerplant......
As above..... VW beetle....
Earlier fords used the same powerplants for years and years, if somethings good, stick with it!
I'm sure BMW engones and layout can trace their roots back a long way aswell.....

KiwiGTI

Especially the BMW 6 cylinders. A huge number of American engines too, particularly V8s

Pavlo

For the past month I have seen you post as the self proclaimed expert on all things Subaru, complain about just about everything subaru, and try to put the world to rights when it comes to specialists that dont charge back street mechanic rates or refuse to cut corners.

Proper engine builds cost proper money, but like every self appointed expert, you seem to think it's a few hours work and a few quid in parts. Main dealers of all marques have their hands tied when it comes to a lot of work as I am sure you know. Specialists are almost always cheaper than a main dealer, in my experience do a better and more thorough job, not driven by time targets and speed bonuses. But for some it's not enough, they want parts at cost, cash deals, discounts blah blah blah.

Just what exactly is your point?

scoobyboy

how many motor factors offer a 3yr warranty or 60,000 mls on a part you buy for your 95 chaved up impreza? probably none thats why some people like to buy oem stuff when their cars out of warranty.
and who on earth has paid £700 for a cambelt change? i think you'll find that that was including a service as well.

justanotherperson

why fix something that is not broken??

[Davey]

My point is for a car that isnt any more special or better engineered than 95% of mass produced cars on the market the dealers, parts suppliers and 3rd party mechanics are really spanking the **** of the owners who know no better!

StickyMicky

there are probably a hell of a lot more people using a vauxhall engine then a scooby one, so maybe this is why the prices are cheaper for other makes

saying that, the amount of engines per scoob car, probably outweighs the vauxhalls by 10 to 1

p1mark

seeing as you know better, why are you not in business doing scoob work? surely with your motor factor parts that are just as good as o.e subaru, you should be able to undercut all the highly respected specialists on here by a big margin. If you can do a cambelt in an hour i should think a complete engine build will only take you 12 or so. surely you should be able to half the cost that the rip off specialists charge?

should be loads of work for you really. All the same i will let someone else be the guinea pig

GC8

The point Paul; is that [Davey] is a better contributor to ScoobyNet than who he replaced, who will be back if [Davey} is chased away.....


In partial answer to your question [Davey]; Subaru has been traditionally associated with horizontally opposed engines for years and they persist with this form factor almost soley for that reason. Do you remember the Subaru F1 engine? A twelve cylinder horizontally opposed turkey. They simply couldnt get it to work and FHI withdrew from the program mid-season rather than break with their traditional layout.


Simon

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

The turbocharged flat four engine works very well.

Ns04

[Davey]

Much appriciated

I'm not dismissing the design of the current FJ20 flat four, its a fine engine! It has merely seen a few tweaks over the years and thats all it needs, but to keep charging top dollar for maintaining and providing parts for an engine that has been in production for decades is plain wrong.. The ford OHV engine has been around since the 40's and is still used in various models but parts main components cost peanuts! and mechanics wont scare punters off by charging over the odds to maintain/repair them as they know its a doddle!

Imagine if light bulb manufacturers never changed the price of a light bulb even though the modern construction methods means it takes about 40 seconds to make one bulb..The basic design hasnt changed in over 125 years, if Subaru had invented the light bulb you would be paying £100 every time one went pop.

[Davey]

Granted, look at the Chevy small block, you can buy a brand new engine in a crate, ready to accept ancillaries and fit from the states and have it shipped over for just over a grand! There are places charging twice that to rebuid a tiny little 4 cylinder subaru engine, go figure?

p1mark

Davey. Take a scoob engine, lets say its done a Big end. crank pin and rod knacked. been ran for a few miles afterwards so contaminated oil is likely to be everywhere.

I would be interested in your answers to these questions.

What in your opinion, would require checking, replacing to do a good job. a job that you will have no doubts or worries about it coming back to you in 2K miles time.

A ball park figure on the cost of replacement parts. specify what parts are 'cheap' aftermarket or o.e subaru.

The rough hours you think it will takes to take the engine out, strip, inspect, wash, inspect, build and put back. you must have a very good idea of this, otherwise you would not suggest specialists are overcharging at 2K +.

i understand you wont have the overheads of a business if its a DIY job

i.e a rough cost for me to bring my blown car to you, and you fix it, to a standard that API/Zen etc...etc......would be happy with.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

[Davey]

You are 100% right about a Subaru's complexity and parts prices. It is a very basic car, yet parts and labour (depending on where you go) are nothing short of a farce. Just stupidly high prices.

And what gets me is people pay them.

It's the main reason why I think Subarus as a marque are not good cars. I am just thankful that mine has never had anything severe go wrong, and that I have my own facitlities and personal automotive skills and experience to do whatever work that is required on it. If I didn't have such facilities or knowledge, I would have sold the car within the first year of owning it (which was the only year it saw a Subaru garage for service work...until I recieved the Bill).

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

In, addition, We're not just talking engines though. The whole Subaru chassis has seen only minor changes interms of mechanical drivetrain components...Yet balljoints, wheel bearings, cambelt tensioners, cambelt idlers...even the cambelt itself is stupidly priced!

In some cases pads and discs are more expensive than those found on a Honda NSX (just a off the top my head example ).

Yes certain parts do carry a levy onprice based on demand, especially if they aren't wear and tear or common failure parts (body panels, trim parts etc.) But charging so much for what is routine service and and common wear tear parts really shows the car for how poor value it is, if you are unfortunate to incurr such failures.

Bubba po

My nephew does my servicing and maintenance and he pays nothing like the stupid prices you are quoting for OEM service parts. I don't know where he's sourcing them, but my bills are never over the top like those prices would suggest.

GC8

Id suggest that International Motors are responsible for the high cost of parts, rather than Subaru/FHI themselves.


Simon

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

/\ Agreed /\

Considering what price differences are accounted by I.M being the middle man when comparing EU prices to UK.

Pavlo

Davey,

What engine parts do you suppose are common between a 93 Impreza and a 2006 Impreza?

If Subaru had kept everything the same for 13 years, then I really would be, but they haven't far from it. If you look at cars over the years you will begin to appreciate how different they are.

Paul

johnfelstead

Having rebuilt my own STi5 engine so labour cost was Zero, you are still talking over £1K in parts just to do a stock rebuild keeping the original pistons/heads/cams/valves etc. If you have a biggie or want to upgrade, the costs soon add up.

You cant compare the stock parts in a Subaru engine to your run of the mill Vauxhall either, parts like the crank are vastly superior in materials and machining, they are quite cheap when you compare the cost of an aftermarket steel crank to the same spec. You have a lot more labour time involved in preping the parts for rebuild too, due to the split crankcase design and two cylinder heads with 4 camshafts.

Parts prices arent that bad compared to mainstream cars on jobs like cambelts either. A cambelt swap on a VW TDi for example will cost you around £350 at a dealer, £280 at an independant.

Of course some parts are at a premium, thats down to basic demand compared to the competition, where the market is much bigger. If you shop around you can still get parts at sensible prices compared to other manufacturers.

[Davey]

There are only very minor variations between the models, Dis pack instead of coil packs, slightly improved steering pump resovior, slightly improved coolant resovior, the inlet into the turbo takes a slightly different route, the intercooler is bigger, the basic block is still the same.. The whole bay even looks the same except for a couple of minor differences..

I really think a group like this should stand up and make a noise about the insanely priced parts and labour costs that seem to come part and parcel with Subaru cars... Some of the parts and labour costs are on par with some seriously exotic marques and I hate to break it to you the Impreza IS NOT an exotic car even with the gold wheels, blue paint and big yellow stickers.

johnfelstead

You havnt got a clue if you think thats all Subaru have changed on the various models.

[Davey]

I totally agree!

I could compare the Impreza's Cost as new to my omega, and they are both from a mass produced brand which isnt exactly exotic by any means. As with the Impreza the Omega has seen only minor chassis alterations in the last 10 years and the engines have simply used longer blocks and had minor tweaks... But the main difference is the parts cost peanuts! For example: A complete track rod set, inner, outter and middle bar is approx £23 where as with the Impreza most motorfactors wanted £56+ for the outer track rod alone! (Although I did find *just* the outter rod for £24 in the end)..

Rear brake pads for the Omega are about £8 for lucas items, but the Impreza rear lucas pads are £18 and what takes the **** is they are smaller and thus made of less materials! Rear shoes for the Omega are around £12... I was quoted £33, yes 33 quid! for a set for the Impreza, The HUGE Bottom arms for the Omega (WITH bushes) are less than £40 I'm willing to bet the piddly little bottom arm on the Impreza is twice that! Cam belt, tensioner and rollers for the Omega £60, Just the bloody belt for the Impreza was £45.. Every single consumable (other than universal parts) seem to be over priced! They are not made of anything special? They are not bigger, or more complex to manufacture, the Impreza isnt a rare or exotic car.. So whats the reasoning?

[Davey]

Oh come on I'm giving examples, yes I know there have been tweaks to the engine, but nothing as serious as developing a whole new power plant that requires mostly new parts and the retraining of the mechanics *AND* thats the point I am trying to raise, its an easy life for Subaru dealers!

[Davey]

Yes but what you are not understanding is that is actually a pig of a job! Most modern transverse engines are packed tight up against the inner wing so space is limited and normaly an engine mount has to be removed to get to the belt plus diesels are notoriously difficult as there is *A LOT* more cramed in there..

The Impreza on the other hand is a PIECE OF **** to work on in comparison, once the radiator is removed there is bags of room and the belt, tensioner & rollers can be changed in around 1 hour... There are two rollers and the tensioner is very simplistic and easy to get to, why they cost so much thats anyones guess?? I can assure you its not because they are made of platinum.

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

Well then its the same story for the mitsi evo, which has had the same basic engine design since its launch and current engine design since 1997.

[Davey]

The EVO has a insanely complex gearbox and drive train though, its a little rarer and the engine is tranverse and a bit of a pain to work on.

johnfelstead

i wouldnt say £200 inclusive of VAT and parts is over priced for a cambelt change at a specialist, thats the sort of cost you will be paying if just doing a cambelt swap.

There is nothing insanely complex about an EVO transmition compared to an Impreza Transmition.