pwebb

All,

I have been having a tough time recently with insurance quotes - the usual story...
renewal 120% up on last year + general refusal to quote a reasonable premium from everywhere I try...

now, if I was a young tearaway I would expect this - but, I am 37, have never made a claim in 17 years driving, never been involved in any form of accident and have just an sp30 fixed penalty (3 points) on my licence. I also live in a leafy suburb of Cheshire with no great history of car crime and no huge crime rate....

I have been trying to find out what loads insurance policies + why and have found out some fairly disturbing facts this week:

The UK Insurance Ombudsman's Bureau can only deal with disputes over claims - not premiums charged.

The Association of British Insurers (membership voluntary) states that motor insurers are free to set their own premiums - free of any regulatory body or legislation. In general this is done individually by insurance companies - by means of a projection of what they think they will incurr in terms of claims for the year ahead - (this could be interpreted as the insurers effectively predicting what they can 'get away with' for a particular make + model) These projections are not necessarily based on any actual official statistics on claims / thefts / repair costs etc. Even though these may be available from bodies such as the DOT.


So far so bad, it really does look like that the UK consumer has no protection on this one - other than the insurance market in general - ie - if an insurer raises premiums above all the other companies then they may potentially price themselves out of the market (assuming there is no price fixing cartel in price to rig premiums).The ABI advise the consumer to 'shop around' or , in the event of not being able to afford the premiums, to reduce the cover applied for (e.g third party only). Another suggestion was to write to your local MP and request that he/she table a parliementary question about regulation of this industry.

I will be doing the latter, for what it is worth but am deeply depressed about the lack of consumer protection here.

I am also trying to follow up an earlier thread on the ability to use European insurers outside the UK (in germany for example the insurance companies have to use official TUV figures for car theft, reliability etc. when assessing premiums) so far I have found little information of any use - I will also make mention of this to my MP/Euro MP too.

some little snippets I have come accross:

robski

ABI codes are guidelines, one of the reasons quotes can vary. +/- 1 or 2 groups can make a massive diff in premium.
Most ins cos use claims history much more than "predicted claims".

There is an element of "what they can get away with", but its not that big.
There are anomalies in the figures, i.e group 6 may generate less claims than group 5 cars (but they still cost more to insure)

The insurance industry is suffering from more claims. How often do you see people offering to make a claim on your behalf?
Its the Ins cos that are forking out for this, and they have to get it back somehow, you know where I mean!

Im not 100% sure if this is still correct, but all the private motor insurers used to loose money on their private motor business, it was only because they invested the premium until they paid it out as claims they they were making any money.

One of the safest "groups" of drivers are 25-35 year olds driving high performance cars (why? probably because they cant afford an accident), one of the worst mr mondeo family man with his group 9 (why? because hes not concentrating on the road, and his insurance is sooooo cheap who cares if he prangs someone)

robski

pwebb

I don't accept that the group ratings should have any place in determining premiums, after all - I could be driving a 20 year old shed, group 5 or whatever - it is irrelevant if I then drive into an expensive sports car and write it off - the cost to the responsible party's insurer to repair the expensive car is the same. On that(admittedly simplistic) basis there should be no loading of premiums for any type of vehicle. Far more relevant is the age and accident history of the driver surely?

Paul W

Dave T-S

Pwebb

Clearly you don't have a clue about this one and it is the same old tired out story that comes up from time to time. Go and spend some time working in the insurance industry and see the truth and you might be able to take the blinkers off a bit.

The average fatal road crash costs between £250,000 to £1 million. Who do you think pays for that?? - the lions share - your insurance company. Work out how many years of your premiums that is to break even.

You go out for a blast, lose it and wrap your car round a tree. It's your fault, but luckily you are insured comprehensively and your insurance company pays nevertheless. Let's say value £20,000 - that's twenty years premiums they've just paid you with nothing in return.

Some thieving little scumbag steals your car. Who pays? - yes your insurance company.
Another 20 years premiums it has cost them.

So let's say you don't have to buy motor insurance voluntarily and decide to take the risk yourself. Some drunken driver writes your car off, he has no money to pay you so there is no point in suing him so you have lost your car and can't afford to pay for a new one so can't get to work and lose your job.
Hospitals are now charging insurers for the medical costs of road accidents (FACT). He puts you in intensive care and there is a medical bill of £50,000. Who pays for that?
You guessed.

So you pile into a rich American tourist and he is badly injured and sues you for $5,000,000. You can't pay - who does - oh you guessed. (Far fetched - no - the Travellers coach crash a few years ago on the M2 - insured via my company - had American tourists on board and the insured loss was over US$15,000,000 - and guess who paid for that one).

If insurers are robbing you blind how come they paid out £1.25 for every £1 they took in premiums last year?
The industry is run as a business not run by the charity commissioners.

Insurance - maybe not so expensive now is it?

BrewandBake

Here Here.

Brew.

adamson

Dave T-S,

Do you work (or do you have a vested interest) in the UK Car Insurance market?

Craig.

adamson

Dave T-S,

No need. I see from your profile that you do (have an interest in the insurance market)

Craig.

pwebb

sorry guys but you are totally missing the points made above...

If the insurers really were basing their premiums on actual claims made in the last year then I would be happy to pay up - but all evidence is that the premiums are not based on any published accident or theft statistics at all - they are simply estimations of risk with no external visibility of the data used to derive the figures. If if it so clear cut - why don't insurers simply publish the data they are using? - a rhetorical question of course!

Also, - no regulation of the industry - this is outrageous - as usual we are miles behind other EC countries in this respect - the consumer should have the right to protection from exploitative companies. The absence of any regulatory body (voluntary or compulsory) speaks volumes for the contempt with which this industry holds the consumer.
The ability to buy insurance from other EC countries would be a start towards making premiums more competitively priced in the UK.


Finally, on my own personal experiences - I simply do not accept that my insurance company's liability vis a vis insuring me can cost them more than 100% more than last year - the figures just don't add up. The personal injury and legal cover parts of my current policy premium amount to £11:00 and £13:00 respectively so all the scenarios given above are complete rubbish.
Also - check out the DOT figures on the government site for theft of vehicles and you will see that a tiny proportion of our cars are actually stolen in any given year - so this is baloney too.

no I am sorry - but if the insurers wish to maintain credibility then they have to demonstrate clearly that they truly have justification in applying massive increases to premiums.

The final point I would make is that the consumer is relatively helpless here - having no option whether to insure or not - since insurance is a legal requirement. If you have not been at the receiving end of this (and presumably those people in the insurance industry themselves get very favourable discounts on their own insurance) then I don't think you are actually qualified to pass judgment on this

touché

Paul W

Dave T-S

Adamson
I didn't have to hide anything in my profile - the message makes it clear I work in the insurance industry - but NOT UK motor - American commercial insurance.

Pwebb
No need for touche - i'm not trying to score points off you, just open up what is a very complicated industry.

All insurance companied authorised to do business in the UK are regulated by HM Treasury (ex DTI).
They are covered by the ABI code of practice and backed by an ombudsman. Financially, they are covered by an extremely tight set of rules.

Yes, motor liability is a compulsory class (Road Traffic Act 1930) - why do you think this was made necessary 70 years ago and still valid today - see my first message.

I don't actively work in motor insurance - my car is covered privately with AXA via Screentrade and I pay exactly the same as you or anyone else would. If you are looking for cronyism you must have strayed to the petrol crisis thread.......

Insurance is a risk business - NOBODY knows what will happen tomorrow or in the year you take your insurance out for. It is totally unique. You would not take that risk as a retailer - charge £XX for your product but you won't know what that product cost you until a year or more down the line - Lloyd's are still getting liability and industrial illness claims from over 50 YEARS AGO - and every valid claim in Lloyd's 300 year history has been paid.

If insurers underprice the product because they only know the next year what it has cost them to sell the product then next year they have to charge more. Simple as that!!!

It does not matter from a profit and loss account viewpoint if one class of business or type of car or age of person is profitable or not if overall their book of business makes a loss!!

Of course, if you think you can do a better job it is an open market and you are always welcome to invest £20,000,000 or so capital up front and set yourself up as a motor insurer.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

pwebb,

Insurance premiums are a necessary pain in the derriere - AGREED

But if you want to avoid high premiums then you have a choice - drive a lower profile car (well reported that Scoobs are the new Cosworth - frequency of theft only ), drive a less performant car, or move to New Zealand where motor insurance is voluntary.


Also check your facts

1) in 1997 the MOTOR insurance sector of the UK market made a loss of around £1,100,000,000 - yes 1.1 BILLION pounds. That's daft insurers, subsidising YOUR premium to get your ungrateful business

2) Your legal protection cover pays for lawyers to get the money back from other insurers, so you may not directly pay for or underwrite personal injury or loss claims, but the frequency of these claims in the industry, plus the exponential growth of these claims, American style, is financially very damaging.

3) You talk of regulation of premiums - the UK being way behind Europe - er which European countries regulate motor premiums?

4) Recent GOVERNMENT regulation enables the Health Service to recover costs from insureds (i.e. insurers) for all motor accident related expenses - adding at least £10 to every policy

5) Premiums are based on actual experience - which is why over the last year, as car crime and high profile fatal accidents related to Scoobs has reached epidemic proportions Scoobs have a been rerated (they were actually very favourably rated before compared to cars of similar performance) and specific premiums have been increased. Many insurers have dropped them altogether, other than for existing policy holders.

6) Also, in the websites you refer to - whilst premiums have grown 40% over the last three years to try and recover from the terrible losses made during most of the '90s the actual 'shoparound' premium - i.e. best price by shopping around, has only increased by around 5%. (This is based on independent market research carried out by the AA).

7) Finally, Insurance Fat Cats - the last time the Motor Insurance Sector in the UK was not in the red was 1991. Last year it broke even, this year it will break even again. In 1997 when there was a £1.1bn loss, only two motor insurers made a profit and they were both tiny.


So, Insurance, a pain in the **** - but if you are going to make a high profile complaint then get your facts lined up correctly first.

R

PS I have no financial interest in the Insurance sector other than keeping my premiums down. Last year 10% total rise, including replacement ECU and two other key mods on an STi

pwebb

Dave T-S hmm - don't think I would go that far ;-)

however - I seem to recall that the insurance companies are rather more canny than that anyway - ie - get someone else to underwrite the risk (remember the LLoyds Names debacle?)and they take the loss when they get a load of asbestos injury related claims etc.

what I object to more than anything else is the lack of proper regulation and lack of open visibility of pricing and how it is derived - why does everyone in this country have to spend days phoning round and round trying to get a decent quote? - fair prices and access to their associated justification/reasoning should be a right for all of us - every UK utility has an associated watchdog and price curbing body -

for the record, I am not out to knock the insurance companies just for the hell of it - but I do object to the apparent contempt for the consumer here - these people should learn to treat their customers as the raison d'etre for their businesses and regard them as a boon - not an adversary - the arrogance I have been shown this last week by all those that have quoted me ludicrous premiums is nothing short of breathtaking - even Tony Blair would blush ;-)

sorry but I can't help feeling upset when I know I am being exploited and can't do anything about it !

Paul W

Blow Dog

Wow,

I cant believe that people are out to protect the insurance industry and claim it to be a tough line business.

I see you claim that the insurance sector has suffered massive losses over the past few years. Perhaps I need to get something into perspective. What percentage of total drivers make a claim that amounts to more that their premium? 10%? 1%? If one in every 100 cars a year have made a claim that exceeds the average premium, then I cant see how this sector is claiming they have made loss profits.

If Jonny goes and smashes his Subaru Impreza whilst drink driving, why the hell do I have to give a damn? Its not my problem. He can drive off a cliff for all I care (infact, I would prefer he did so).

I have never made a claim through the insurers in my life yet I have invested 10's of thousands of pounds in to this industry. Am I a rare one off? Or is joe public like me? If it is, it seems that we are made to pay for everyone else's mistakes.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

There seems to be a profoundly ignorant miscomprehension here.

Insurance premiums are a pain the **** - very emotional that we have to put out hard earned - but IF you are going make big statements and take action based on them - at least get your basic facts correct.

All this crap about no regulation is simply complete and utter BULL.

Each and every insurance is required (so that it can remain licensed to do business) by law to complete detailed returns to the Department of Trade and Industry. These returns are available to the public.

So, if you are prepared to look there is no SCAM.

Example from Direct Line a couple of years ago -

Motor premiums = 100%,

Claims Costs (not overheads or operations - just the cost of fixing cars and peoples heads) 98%

Operating Costs = 12%

So - Sunil, jump in here if my maths are dodgy - staying in business cost Direct Line 10% more than they got in premiums - OBVIOUSLY A RIP OFF


Get real guys, where you are being ripped off is Travel Insurance - 40% profit margin; Extended Warranty 20-80% margin; Home Insurance 15%+, Legal Expenses Insurance (ULRS) - 100% (yes, Insurers don't pay for it, but you do)...

All of which is why Insurers will subsise motor to sell you all the other rip off products.

Dave T-S

Blow dog -
Wow - web design - so a good freelance in your industry can charge a fee of £1000 a day or more - whilst taking little risk - what's that about rip-off? Not having a pop but look how it is easy for people outside to look into any industry and only see part of the picture.

Claims costs - anyone can work out the numbers - how many Scooby Imprezas in the UK?
10,000? If ONLY 50 of the 10,000 of them are written off at £20,000 each that is a loss to insurers of £1 MILLION on pure car values alone, no medical costs whatsoever. If insurers charge an average premium of, say, £800 each that means they have to insure 1250 further Imprezas, at the same premium, and none of them can have a claim, JUST TO BREAK EVEN ON AN UNDERWRITING BASIS ALONE, NO EXPENSES, NO PROFIT.
That just isn't going to happen, so they make a loss.

pwebb -
Since you mentioned it I have actually worked for Lloyd's brokers for the last 25 years specialising in American liability reinsurance so can speak reasonably informed on the subject.
Lloyd's is not an insurance company. It is a society whereby the "names" are the capital providers. They also take the risk so they would naturally have to pay the asbestosis and similar losses (the same way they took substantial profits in a 20 year or so run from the early sixties to the 1980's).
They did not suddenly become liable for the losses, they were always potentially liable from the day they signed up.

The Lloyd's market got hit by a number of unforseen disasters - Hurricane Andrew (around $15 BILLION alone), Piper Alpha oil platform, USA earthquakes, plus as you mention asbestosis, breast implant litigation, toxic waste dumps ets - mostly from the USA - it is a truly global market. I could go on all night (but won't, this thread is getting boring even by my admission) All of these were reinsured in the Lloyd's market.

There are still open active claim files on American liability claims going back 50 years or more and every single valid claim presented to Lloyd's for the last 300 years has been paid.

Like I say, hardly a rip off industry!

Blow Dog

Dave,

What relevance is my profession to this topic? Because I had to spend an extra month on a project, I dont go and charge the next client double price to recoup my lost fees....go figure.

You are giving me hypothetical loss estimates (how typically broker-like of you ) but I would be interested to find out exactly how many impreza owners have put a total claim in and I would like to compare this to the entire amount of imprezas in the UK.

Cem, only curious, mind, not trying to stick my oar in

Dave T-S

Blow dog

I work for a broker - i'm not actually a broker myself - the difference being I don't try and sell insurance to anyone - i'm just a troubleshooter that solves the coc#ups that other people have created (i'm not short of work.....).

The reason for mentioning your profession is not to take a pop (as I said) merely to say that my or anybody's perception of your industry, like mine, as an uninformed outsider is probably misguided if only out of misunderstanding.

If you consistently underprice your fee - for whatever reason - and don't recoup it somewhere - you'll go bust - go figure. Not good for your clients in the long run (and Lloyd's has been around for over 300 years.....).

I'm giving you hypothetical figures because nobody has those sort of detailed statistics - and brackets round the bottom line are still brackets round the bottom line however the losses are made up. I don't know the answer to your question and nor does anyone else. I freely admit I might be wrong but still overall the motor insurance industry has not made a material profit for around 10 years - fact - information in the public domain.

I've not had a claim motor in 23 years so obviously I am subsidising many others. Fact. Not important. What is important to me is that if I have a £100,000 cost claim then they have to subsidise me and pay my claim. Insurance is not there to make a profit for the individual but to put them in the same position they were in prior to the loss.

Insurance is mutualisation - it is about spreading risk - and it all goes in the same pot. Your premiums are not ring fenced - if you have a £10,000 claim shall insurers refuse to pay it from all the other people's premiums because you personally have not contributed £10,000 in premiums - should they refuse to pay others' claims from your premiums for the same reason - of course not. The claim fund (i.e. the available funds to pay your and everyone else's claims) is created from pooling all premiums. How else can you do it?

I am sure all motor insurers would be keen to take on any people that have all the answers and are prepared to turn their underwriting round to profit - who's volunteering?

pwebb

blimey,

emotions ARE running high this evening - and I thought I was pissed off :-)

well there are a lot of oppinions here but I don't see any urls or actual evidence that the insurance industry is open about its figures - especially to its customers the general public. The ABI who I talked to at length today appear to be totally toothless and there is no independent regulatory body (why do I keep having to repeat this?)

anyone remember what happened in france when all the insurance companies started putting up premiums on high powered motorbikes? - I can - it led to an estimated 40% of riders running without insurance until the government stepped in and capped the premiums - now that was a silly situation and one that is not beyond the realms of possibility over here if things aren't reigned-in pretty soon.

agree this is getting a bit wayward now and I am sure some people will be wondering where this is leading... is pre-marital hand-holding - a communist plot perhaps?

Paul W

mphnw11

Rannoch

I think we also know that many insurance companies invest far less than 100% of people's money when they purchase the majority of products. The majority of insurance companies specialise in specific demographics. For example they will be competitive for cars in groups 6-10, for people aged 33 to 45 living in medium risk areas. They advertise these premiums, suck other groups into calling and usually make a killing as people hunt around and eventually settle before they get a good deal.

I never saw a poor Insurance director, certainly the likes of Eagle Star (Zurich), Allied Dunbar (Zurich), CGNU etc all seem to do very well. So while you can just look at the motor premiums, the point you made later is damn right - they use motor as a loss leader - sadly the Scooby doesn't sit in anyone's loss leader category

Rum*

Pwebb....just out of interest do you want to give me a call and I'll see if I can try and restore a bit of your convidence in my section of the insurance market...being an insurance broker and all that!!!

Wk: 0113 250 0377
Mob: 0498 762285
Email: tom@schofieldinsurance.co.uk

Speak soon - Tom

tizard99

Hi all, just a thought does anyone think that premiums should be lower But the excess you pay should be higher (to teach you to be more careful). This way the person at fault pays out more than the insurance company. no crashes nothing to pay. If you cant pay then the insurance company will and you will then be legally liable to the like a loan. Is this an interesting idea or have I missed something.

Trev.

robski

you can do that, its called voluntary excess, its worth considering to reduce your premium, be careful tho, its not always worth it!

Rum, is this offer available to all?

robski

Craig H

Dave,
But if theres 10,000 Imprezas @ £800 each premium that's £8million total. So if 50 are written off theres still a large pot.
We all complain about premiums, but £1k pa for a £20-£30k car is not bad. And for a hi performance car at that. Ratio is a lot better than a £1k car with a £300 premium.

mphnw11

Just to throw another comment in, I don't know where the Insurance loss figures are coming from, but having previously worked in the Insurance Industry I would take them with a pinch of salt Whilst the majority of Insurers lose money relative to the premiums (ie £1Bn in £1.05Bn out), they use these premiums to lever up into Mortgages, endowments, and other investment type vehicles whereby they make their "loss" back plus interest. If the stock markets around the world have been relatively Bullish for the last few years and Insurers use the premium income to sell other products, it's no real harm if they don't break even or generate profits from each and every line.

What is true is that they seem to view performance cars as a great way to ratchet the premiums up - I paid approx. 40% more this year than last and had no change in my personal circumstances - it would appear that the Scooby is indeed the new Cosworth. Once you get in, start up and drive for 10 minutes, you soon think that perhaps the £3.50 premium a day isn't too bad - a Pint in some bars in London costs that much nowadays

camk

OK answer me this, Whys is in Germany I can insure a brand new Porsche 996 C4 Fully comp for 300 per year and when I get a quote for my Scooby this week for 3rd party F&T in the UK its 1000. The only difference is different location(10 Year NCD,no convictions,Age 32). I must be similar risk and the cars are seperated by 500% price difference. At this rate German insurance companies are not just running at a loss they must be burning money !!!!

CK

GranTurismo

Dont forget INSURANCE TAX,

Yet another tax on the motorist, it has been re introduced in that last few years. I can not begin to understand whay the government thinks it is entitled to this.

pwebb

have you seen some of the shabby buildings these poor impoverished insurance companies have to use as their HQ ? - it really is a shame that they have to put up with such poor office accommodation - evidently times are very hard indeed for these organisations.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

mphnw11 - as you have worked in the industry you will also understand that if you have a combined ratio of 110%, in a market that has had lowering interest rates for ten years - 10% down to 5-6%, it is damn difficult to secure an investment return of at least 10% just to break even.

Sure, the stock market may have grown by more, but the treasury requires a fairly conservative investment strategy for technical reserves!

Mr Webb,

regulation - the Motor Insurance sector is licensed and regulated by the Department of Trade and Industry - not independent, agreed - but if you have a specific grievance there is an Insurance Ombudsman.

The ABI is a club - just like SIDC - of like minded individuals to share experiences, knowledge, etc. It has nothing to do with regulation - however, also like SIDC, it has certain guidelines of expected behaviour - and in the same way the SIDC doesn't write the Highway code, the ABI does not regulate the Insurance Industry.

You also state that there is no data in the public domain. What kind of data would you like....(year is most recent data available)

...average claims cost in UK motor = £1434 (up from £703 ten years earlier) in 1998

...average number of claims per 100 insured vehicles = 16.5 in 1998

...drivers of insurance cost as at 1999 - indices baselined at 100 in 1990

RPI = 138
Spare part prices = 161 (double inflation)
Motor factor charge out rates = 153

Or more specific public domain information (1998)...

RSA - motor premiums £1,066,821,000; profit - (minus) £194,186,000

Eagle Star - £482,000,000; profit - (minus again!) £178,041,000

Privalege (specialists in high performance and Subarus) - £61,928,000; profit - (a loss once more) £9,167,000

Key points...

...motor insurance in the UK is mostly done as a loss leader

...detail, such as a specific group of vehicles (risks) and how they are underwritten is commercial and in confidence - this is true of all countries and is true of regulated insurance businesses too

...the principle of motor insurance is exactly the same as Ladbrokes and William Hill - you share the risk of the favourite coming in - Scoobies go faster so they get more damaged when they hit anything; they are also becoming the ram raid top ten hit (BTW no-one seems upset that bookies make mountains of cash out of EXACTLY the same principle - except Insurance is better, when you need to win you do )

...IF, the motor insurance business was more regulated and this information published more widely your premiums would go UP, UP and UP...

...why, because it would be a lot easier for Insurers to show where your policy pound went and still RETAIN you as a customer.

[This message has been edited by Rannoch (edited 15 September 2000).]

robski

I think you also need to bear in mind the changes that took effect in the insurance market as a result of the direct writers.

Their aim was to cream off the profitable business Read : safe drivers, by offering them lower premiums.
You are looking at experienced drivers, and low group cars. This has been realxed a bit more now than it was originally, but its their basic principle.

How many direct writers refuse to insure scoobs? (www writers as well?)

The figures Rannoch quoted on parts are very key as well. Look at your average car now, take a middle of the range escort, and compare it to an old mark 3. Its got a complete wrap around rear colour coded moulded bumper, which will at minimum crack with a small impact. The old mark 3 had a 3 piece metal and plastic thin bumper. The new part fitted and paited is in the region of 500, the old one would likely be 150 (thats a guess cos Im not up on the prices for "old" bits)

cars are costing much much more to repair now, because they have loads of colour coding, and made from impact absorbing materials (the energy has to go somewhere!)

the other impact of the direct writers was that they had to build market share, so they reduced premiums in real terms year after year. This had to be recovered at some point, and that point is now.

I know for fact that claims history is a key point. Its not guess work you know. Some of the highest paid people in Insurance are the actuaries who look at this kind of thing.
(and you thought accountants were boring!!)

robski

(who works in insurance and whos premium is going up 40% this year at the moment)

adamson

Surely the problem is that when companies have shareholders, their number 1 objective is to increase shareholder value? They don't do that by keeping premium's low.

I quite like Ricahrd Branson's philosophy. Buy shares in the companies, sure. But we don't pay dividends. Shareholder value is provided simply by the increase in the share price.

I'd quite like someone to have the b**** to stand up and say 'Our business plan means we have to generate profits of x% per year (or £x,000) this so that we can increase the value of the company by x% (shareholders get their return this way) - Anything over and above that will be returned to customers!'

Result? Increase in value for shareholders. Decent profits. Happy customers. It seems to be a good combination to me.

It seems that generating profits is not enough. Profits have to be bigger and bigger every single year!

Remember, it is all about choices. I absolutely refuse to buy products/services from companies I have had bad experiences with (BMW, Mercedes, Crombie, Kwik-Fit, McDonalds, Entweb, Esso, etc..)

Just my 2p worth.

Craig.


[This message has been edited by adamson (edited 15 September 2000).]

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Robski - concise view of insurance economic dynamics over the last fifteen years

mphnw11 - as one of my earlier posts pointed out, Insures can (if they are any good) make solid, although not terribly brilliant profits...my soapbox here is that simply insurers simply do NOT make money out of MOTOR insurance. As I say that is to build a customer base to sell other much more profitable things...

ULRS (Legal Protection)
FLP (Family Legal Protection)
Breakdown cover

Cross selling

Travel
Home
Mortgage
Life

etc, etc.

adamson - shareholder value - one of the key drivers of shareholder value, in the sector, has been number of customers - this is clearly the battleground of the last five years, if not longer - and overall the Insurance has performed pretty badly compared to other sectors on this front - in fact pathetically.


If you want to reduce your premium - remember that Breakdown and ULRS are often 'bundled' into the premium and add around £50 to the price. They, between them, generate around £30 of profit and so either unbundle them or negotiate hard on this price.

R