nick groves

I know iam going to sound supid,but what does ppp'd stand for ? i know iam going to kick myself

Fosters

Does anyone have direct experience to be able to compare a PPP'd scoob and an M3?

Just curious as I work at BMW and would obviously like to be smug about having a better handling car.

RESSE

iTrader: (1)

A very good friend of mine modifies BMWs (mostly fitting M3 and M5 kits to standard cars) but he has started working on Z3Ms and the new E46. He owns a 1995 3.0 M3 (left hand drive converted to right with 18" Hartge wheels and spoilers. The car is quite different to drive on the limit to a Scoob (heavier and rear wheel drive. I much prefer to instant repsonse and grip of the Scoob as I tried a E30 M3 - which is a great car. Scoob is obviously better in the wet, but I would like to test drive the new M3 or a 330Ci.

SDB

hmmm

I have driven about 3 ppp'd Scoobs and about 12 M3's at MIRA.

They are totally different cars though, so direct comparrisons are difficult.

I hate to say it (not generally keen on BM's), but the M3 does have extremely good handling. If you want amo though ....

1) The scoob is obviously in another class when it comes to traction.

2) Scoobs are definately quicker round the wet handling circuit.

3) You can attack a corner with much more aggression in a scoob (not that this is a good thing of course ) without ending up in a heap at the other end.

But, the M3 and particularly the EVO are without doubt, superb cars, and enjoyable to drive on the limit. This is not a car which has just been thrown together, they have REALLY focussed on the ride and handling.

But if they get too cocky, tell 'em to come to MIRA ... we'll show em

Cheers

Simon

Josh L

As far as on the limit handling is concerned, I think you'd probably end up involved in that old RWD v AWD argument.
Having said that, I was most surprised the first time I found myself beating an M3 in my unmodified MY98. So much so I even phoned a fellow member to see if I was dreaming.

Most gratifying, but very sad.

Josh

SDB

Josh - You probably took some stunning photo's of it as you went past

DazW

iTrader: (1)

A few years ago when I had my Integrale I had a bit of a 'play' with an M3, admittedly it was wet but seeing an M3 in front of you getting a tank slapper on a long left hander at over a ton certainly makes you think about the advantages of 4WD. I also felt really guilty because this guy had almost killed himself and I had been party to it, it was the last time I 'played' on a public highway!

Blow Dog

Simon,
I have been recently looking at Z3M Coupes, they can be had at just over 20k now (LHD).

Have you ever driven one of these? I have heard that they are a right hoot to powerslide and their on the limit handling is supposed to be a doddle to master.

Cem

SDB

Z3M Coupe...

Undoubtedly one of the best fun car's I have ever driven. Also one of the most competent road car's I have ever driven.

Seriously quick, incredible handling, unreal grip (on S-02s - not sure about other tyres), loads of torque.

Only down as far as I can see is the looks, but I guess that is personal preference.

Beware though...

What do I know? You should obviously try them for yourself. Everything is subjective. But I regretfully have to agree with Tiff on this one

Cheers

Simon

igratton

I think they are referring to the 'Prodrive Performance Pack'

Cheers

Ian

SimonD

Cem

Changed my Scoob for the M Coupe just over six months ago. I'm very happy with it but there are times when I miss the Impreza.
While the handling is much sharper than my (UK) Impreza I miss the fool proof grip and the ScoobySport assisted exhaust rumble. The engine is creamy smooth but does need revs if you're really motoring. The looks are obviously subjective; there seems to be a 50:50 split between those who love it/hate it - very little middle ground.
At 20k you would be getting a lot of car for the money, they will never be that popular over here because of the looks and the ridiculous new price.
Only problems that I have heard of are a tendency for the end of the rear anti roll bar to pop out of it's link (mine did this twice but not since BMW replaced the link) and some slightly flakey trim in the boot (by BMW standards).
Oh yes, and the rear washer leaks when facing uphill!

I also felt rather daft turning up to watch the SIDC track day in a BMW!

Simon

EvoIV

Just to add to the debate, take a look at the link below. It's video footage taken from, dare I say it here, my Lancer Evo IV at Cadwell Park earlier this year and shows a BMW M3 in action.

I was surprised at how hard he was pushing and how much I had to ease off just to stay behind him. Wasn't like that when I met a Scooby on track .

I came up behind a number of M3's that day and to be honest they all looked a bit of a handful in the tight bends and struggled with traction out of the corners.

SDB

hmmmm

Nice video, looks like a fabulous circuit... even I could enjoy myself there I reckon

But...

Don't draw too many conclusions from this encounter. There are so many variables that it is not a test of the machinery at all.

The big difference between cars like the M3 and cars like the EVO IV are the levels at which different skill levels can take them...

It is easy for a novice to take an EVO IV to (let's say) 70% of it's limits.

The same Novice could probably only take an M3 to 50% of it's limits, they are far more challenging to drive.

But...

If a top driver got into both, it is possible that you would find that 100% of the EVO's limits (on that circuit) were not as quick as 100% of the M3's.

Often, powerful RWD car's are far quicker on smooth circuits tha AWD cars. It's just that it takes a far more experienced and skilled driver to take them there.

But put the same skilled driver in the EVO and he probably wouldn't be able to go as fast.

Certainly, the M3 in the vid was not being driven on the limit (or even close to it).

There is no way of telling how close to the limits the EVO was from that angle. So it is impossible to make any assumptions as to the competence of each car.

I have very little actually track experience (in fact only about 15 laps of Donington ) but something which was an eye opener to me was the HUGE difference things like Brakes and Slicks made. But the biggest eye opener was the ENORMOUS difference local knowledge makes.

I am used to starting a rally stage where (usually) nobody has ANY knowledge of the road ahead except what the co-driver is telling you (with varying degrees of accuracy ).

I find being quick in this situation no real problem. But when I went round Donington, I had to get used to the fact that you were actually allowed to get better at it on each lap . Race driving and rally driving are very different it seems

So what this means is that there are a billion different reasons why the EVO was quicker than the M3 on the video clip.

Cheers

Simon

DazV

BMW M3 vs. Scooby.

Some interesting responses, all focussing on handling and grip. What about straight line performance ?

Curious,
DV

SDB

I don't have too much experience of this but...

My old WRX (260-270BHP) was an EXACT match for a mates M3 EVO Convertible up to about 120MPH (at Bruntingthorpe), but then he started to pull away.

The M3's I have driven at MIRA have all felt fairly quick, but not a match for an STi.

Cheers

Simon

[This message has been edited by Simon de Banke (edited 27-06-2000).]

PAUL GEE

Old copy of 'Car' magazine included lapping Thruxton with a variety of cars including M3 and U.K. spec Impreza.

To assess grip, steering, progression, controllability and stability (not just straight line speed)

LAP TIMES
IMPREZA (U.K.) 1:34.01
M3 1:33.78

COMMENTS AFTER ASSESSMENT

IMPREZA..........'Very rapid yet supremely in control. If you can't drive this car quickly, you can't drive quickly'
(John Barker)

M3...........'Its not that the M3 is a bad car - they just can't make it really good'
(Gavin Green)

Overall result after tests:
Impreza finished second out of 20 cars, M3 finished fifteenth!
TVR Cerbera finished last in 20th place.
Honda NSX (4th)
911 (13th)
Skyline (14th)
Diablo (8th)
Supra (9th)

Not surprised the Evo6 had to back off so much. In AUTOCAR, it came second only to the 550M in a similar track test.

Craig H

Didn't Autocar do a test with a 911, M3, Elise and UK Scoob. Think the only thing the UK Scoob wasn't fastest in was the dry slalom, which the Elise won marginally.
Agree with Stef with the M3s and Alpinas round Donington - didn't seem that quick straightline or round the bends.

Stef

Simon.
Agreed, but if we want to look at 'average' ability what better place than a track?
I think most people would agree that with drivers of equal ability, the Scoob would stuff an M3 on most UK roads. On a track the M3 would be expected to do better, but I can honestly say that even in a staight line the Scoob won the day. Driver abilty not so important there methinks.

Stef.
PS Craig. Soz to hear the news mate. Hope all's well soon.

Craig H

Straight line performance of M3s, Z3Ms etc seems awesome in road tests, but in real life they don't seem to quite deliver.
If you believe what the mags say about pure acceleration, an M3 is easily a match for an Sti, but a Z3M is quicker. But they don't appear to be. Strange.

sonu

The posts above seem to be mixing all the 'M3' variants together. Each variant has its own characteristics and so it is unfair to label them as one group.

I am fortunate enough to own an Z3 M Coupe(3 months) and a UK Scoob(1.5 years). I am not an expert race driver, but here are my observations:

Z3 M:
- Great long distance cruiser.
- Faster than Scoob
- Rear wheel drive far more challenging to drive through corners

Scoob:
- AWD makes coming out of corners easy

Also, as stated above, driver ability has a lot do with how people perceive a car.

Thanks

Sonu

blubs

Hi All,

Looking at it from an onwership point of view, I had looked at the M3 as an alternative to the Scoob. Can't remember the exact model year number but it would be no more than three years old. The biggest decider against the M3 was the huge hike in insurance. Cheapest quote was £1600 compared to £650 for the Scoob.

Other than that I really like the M3 and having looked at them more closely I think I prefer the old square shape with the arches, (the E30 model?)

Cheaper to insure obviously, but more likely to need attention in the suspension, clutch etc departments, and they ain't cheap!!!

blubs

Stef

I have driven on track with several M3's at Dono and Snetterton and have never come across one that gave me any trouble, apart from not letting me past!
They appeared to be driving fairly hard too.
There was also a new Alpina 3.3 jobby at Dono last month, and the outcome was the same.
I've only seen one run at Santa Pod at I think it did a 13.9sec run.
So overall, I reckon a PPP'd Scoob would be more than a match for an M3 most of the time.
Whether the driver is or not is another matter!

Stef.

SDB

Stef..

This is a classic example...
You are quite experienced at Dono. If you were to put Colin McRae in your car (assuming he had never been to dono - which he has) and ask him to kick it's ****, he would probably be slower than you for the first couple of laps.

After that it would obviously be "bye bye", but..

There is no way we can measure a car's performance or abilities by watching non-skilled drivers punt them round a track day. The cars may appear to be driven hard, but that very fact may signify that they are far from the limit.

I would be surprised if it was the car that was superior in this case (compliment in there somewhere )

Cheers

Simon

Craig H

Stef,
These things are for the best. I think.

SDB

Stef

No Doubt at all. But this thread was not about average ability, it was about the ability of the car.

Also, a track is not necessarily the guage of 'average ability' (if there is such a thing), as local knowledge makes such a huge difference.

Straight line speed is a tricky one to guage on a track also unless you start off at exactly the same speed. If you come out of a bend 2MPH quicker than the guy in front (who has the same power as you), you will go past him easily.

I know that an M3 EVO is a quick car in a stright line, but really the thread's not about this either... it was about handling. And there are so many unknowns about handling at a track day. Tyres, brakes, suspension, track time, genuine ability, willingness to push it, etc, etc, etc...

The only way to be sure is to get the two cars and set them up with the best gear for that circuit. Then put racing drivers in them...

This is known as motorsport, and it is a fact that Scoobies seldom beat BMWs on big race circuits. However, they kick their saggy ***** on loose surfaces.

As far as standard out-the-box performance goes, I don't know, but I stand by the comments in my orrignal message. Also, it would be unfair (in this thread) to talk about totally standard M3s because it is about a Scoob with PPP.

All cars have their ups and downs. The scoob has more ups than downs (IMHO), but be realistic... It is an AWD rally car, not a touring car replica. Whilst it is possible for a competent driver with 200 laps of donington under their belt to punt one round there quicker than an anonimous guy in an anonimous M3, they are not design for that job, so why should they be the best in the world at it?

Cheers

Simon

[This message has been edited by Simon de Banke (edited 28-06-2000).]

Andy H

I have just been to Germany in MY99 UK turbo last week and had some intreasting encounters with BMWs and Mercs.

Traveling on the autobahns at about 80-90mph waiting for a car to move over after overtaking i would get a lot of BMWs amd Mercs motoring up behind me waiting to overtake. As soon as the car in front moved over i would speed up and leave them all behind up to about 130 where they would then start gaining again and then pass (mostly just to make a point). The only cars that skinned me were a new M5 and a british V8 Lotus Esprit which just sailed past me and i was doing 130 at the time (what a sound)

Andy H