KF

Each time this goes around we have the same discussion. It won't work because....

It *is* infuriating how much the government raise from motorists, and none of their transport policies hold water. What is the most polluting vehicle? One doing 0mpg, a stationary one, in a traffic jam. But that is also one earning the most revenue for the government.

>There is no major organisation that >represents the British driver when it comes >to matters of fuel duty. The government are >bleeding motorists dry.

There is one small group that is trying to become a major organisation. The ABD. They are gradually getting an informed message over. Lend them your support. The more people that join, the louder the voice. Joining costs less than 1/2 what you give the government each time you fill your petrol tank.

KF.

Big Bear

I was watching CNN yesterday and the the American people are up in arms about the price of petrol it went up 20 cents to a wopping 234cents per GALLON . God only knows what they would think of rip off UK
Dave

blubs

As usual, the motorist is an easy target. Most people are too scared to actively and aggressively lobby because they rely so much on cars to commute etc.

Lets face it, we are;

1. Ripped to shreds on fuel prices

2. Forced to invest huge amounts on over inflated and 'nil return for good driving' insurance cover, run by companies who seem to have to answer to no-one.

3. Targeted and hounded as criminal speeders by a government spouting mis-guided and ill informed stats on the causes of accidents, while they comfort and canoodle the rapists, drug dealers and child molesters who must be reabilitated, (the poor things), back into society to reoffend at a rate of 70% (official).

4. Until recently, forced to pay the most extortionate prices for new vehicles in europe.

The list is endless and is a British disease.

I am not unpatriotic but can find no excuses for the governments behaviour towards the motorist, other than using them as a huge revenue creating money-box to line the pockets of our twisted conniving government.

So there.

dingy

Fact 1
When the petrol price was hiked in America last year, that's precisely what they did. Nobody bought petrol for a day. The loss of revenue was crippling for some of the big players. They rallied round and forced the prices down again.

Fact 2
If you live in the UK, you are taxed at 614% on your petrol. Petrol is now approaching £0.90 per litre. That's £4.10 a gallon. For every £50 fill-up, you're just giving the government £43 out of your own pocket.

Fact 3
For the average family, a 1p increase per litre in the cost of fuel means an extra £18 a year out of their pocket. Work it out for yourself. In the weeks leading up to mid June, you all took a salary cut of around £126 a year.

Fact 4
Fuel duty has little to do with the environment. Leaded petrol was supposedly taxed highly for environmental reasons. Why then, when it was replaced with LRP did the price not come down? Diesel fuel is cheaper, yet pollutes more by producing carcinogens and particulates. LPG is the cleanest fuel there is but you don't see the government promoting that do you?

Fact 5
£38billion is sucked out of motorist's pockets each year in tax. You buy the planet's most expensive petrol, but do you see that money going back into the roads? No you do not. A recent study pointed out that most of Britain's roads are up to 15 years beyond their structural refurbishment date.

Fact 6
Freight companies are suffering - so is our trade with the EU. When a haulage company has to fill it's tanks with diesel taxed at such a ridiculous rate, it's running costs become so expensive that companies take their business to haulage firms based on the continent. That in turn means a loss of income for our country.

Fact 7
Public transport is not an option. Buses and coaches become more expensive again because of the underlying cost of running them. The privatised rail and bus companies continue to slash services and close branch routes because running them is not "cost effective." i.e. the shareholders aren't getting their dividends. And the government are doing nothing about it. Rail companies have been under performing and missing targets as stipulated by their contracts ever since privatisation. Yet they're all still in business.

Fact 8
Last year the price of crude oil was half the cost it is today, yet the price of petrol did not go down accordingly. When the price started to rise back the current levels the price did go up. The petrol companies cannot have it all their own way.

Fact 9
Britain is the only oil producing country in Europe, but has the highest petrol prices. Go figure.

So Act!

There is no major organisation that represents the British driver when it comes to matters of fuel duty. The government are bleeding motorists dry.
Why?
Because they can. As long as public apathy continues, and we keep paying ludicrous prices for our petrol, the government will keep laying on the tax. Starting on Tuesday, August 1st 2000, BOYCOTT THE FORECOURT PUMPS ON THE 1ST OF EVERY MONTH UNTIL THE GOVERNMENT ACTS AND CUTS THE TAX. Don't buy any petrol or diesel. Spread the word and force the government to listen. For once, let's stand up with a unified voice and make them understand that we will no longer be quietly steamrollered into a transport system that's crumbling under our feet whilst we pay for it through the nose. Tell them you have had
enough of Rip-Off Britain.

alistair

Managed my first £50 fill up last night !

Richard F

Don't get me wrong here but surely this is never going to make any difference?

I totally and utterly agree that this government takes the p1ss but people would just fill up the day before or the day after. The fact is that because public transport is so cr@p, people HAVE to use their cars. The only way this protest would work would be if people refused to buy petrol and didn't use their cars at all, which most people simply can't afford to do.

By the way, there was something on Meridian TV last week about some areas in the south paying 104p / litre. Almost 5 quid a gallon apparently. Sad thing is, I remember when it was 1.20 a gallon!

Roll on the revolution...

harj

Lets do something about this! If we can!

Ian Sutton

I would think that the only way to get a result would be to get a newspaper like the SUN involved asking everyone to block the roads, not buy petrol on certain days etc..

I mean it was them that basically won the election for labour, by telling every Tom, Dick and Harry to vote red.And what a good choice that was ...NOT!


...Ian

Stu

I got this as an email I think it could work and I will be doing it.

Kev

This really eats me

The more everyone ignore's the cost and still pays for it the more they will keep putting up the tax/price. I really do think it's time as a nation to start digging our heels in and start showing our disscontent, it seems as usual ( me included ) we British are keeping a "stiff upper lip" and not complaining ... just busines as usual ..... and they will treat it the same.

I do agree with Ian Sutton, it has to have the backing of your tabloid papers ( free pull out window posters and all ) as it's the only way we seem to pull together in this country.

A mate who goes to Europe every week runs his artic really low on fuel and the 1st thing he does in France is fill up his 4 tanks for the trip, then the last thing he does is fill up before he gets on the ferry to come home .... things are that tight as an owner-operator he can't afford to do it any other way as fuel costs are crippling him ....

I thought Tony's mob was all for small enterprises etc .....

K

Richard F

Be fair though, although they do (without doubt) take the p1ss, they did scrap the fuel escalator which automatically raised the petrol prices by some huge amount above inflation.

Course, that doesn't mean they haven't just continued to raise the price "manually"...

Dazzler

A start could be to flood the Government with letters/emails of complaint. Surely, if they get inundated with these they've got to start listening ?

Thing is, where do we send them - Has anyone got a Website/email address ?

Great democracy - a government you can't voice your opinion to !

NickF

Cat amongst pigeon time ....

Would any of you be prepared to pay increased income tax in order to have reduced fuel prices?

Cos whichever way it's done, the government has to raise revenues to pay for the NHS, schools, etc etc.

Sure, the States has cheap fuel. But then you'll notice that they pay a lot for health insurance. They have a really rather poor record on crime. And, of course, the fact that they have cheap fuel means that they have cars/SUVs which average around 18mpg, thereby draining the earth's resources at a frightening rate. The average American gets a lot fewer holidays than the average European. The Welfare system is a joke.

I'm not knocking the States (well, except on the gun issue), just pointing out that they are so different to the UK as to make comparisons almost meaningless.

Compare us, if you wish, to Europe - where fuel prices are a little lower, but direct taxes are quite substantially higher.

I'm not saying that I like paying loads to fill the tank, just that we have to pay for Britain plc somehow. At least with fuel I can choose how much to use (buy a Lupo diesel at 65mpg and my costs would plummet) whereas with income tax you have to pay, even if you're single and youung (and therefore are far less likely to be using the State education or medical facilites).

As ever, my tuppence worth - I'll no doubt get shot down for this, but it's a bit of a one-sided debate at present. OF COURSE nobody likes paying tax, but how else would you propose to do it?


Nick

PS Blubs, regarding the criminals who are counselled and rehabilitated back into society? Those are the ones who DON'T reoffend (to anywhere near the same degree, at any rate). It's the ones who are treated like human waste and thrown into somewhere like Wormwood Scrubs who will will almost always reoffend.

Wouldn't you like to think that the money keeping someone in prison had been well spent rather than just pissed away?

I completely agree with you on the speeding/accident stats though, total misinformation by The Cheshire Cat in No.10

Richard F

Hmmm

Well I certainly agree we've got to pay for Britain plc but a tax on fuel is not fair. It is fairer to pay increased income tax rather than load up indirect taxes as everyone, regardless of ability to pay, has to pay VAT, etc whereas income tax is higher for those who earn more, which has got to be fairer.

If you pay VAT (indirect) of 20 quid on something, you pay that 20 quid irrespective of your income. If your income tax is 30% (direct), the tax burden is higher as your income rises.

Much fairer I reckon.

DavidRB

The trend in recent years has been to move the burden of taxation away from income tax (direct) to VAT (indirect). This is because people blame the government for income tax rises, but blame corporations for price rises. Unfortunately, increased VAT shifts the burden of tax away from the rich and onto the poor. The poorer you are, the greater percentage of your income is spent on VATable items such as food & clothing.

I agree with NickF that if tax is reduced on petrol, it must be made up somewhere else. Of course, the flipside is that because the govt. has this surplus of cash coming in via petrol, they don't have to make an effort to cut back on the other huge costs & debts.

Did anyone notice how in the last budget, the fuel rise was listed as "per litre" rather than "per gallon", making it sound about 1/5 what it really was. Sadly, taxing petrol is like taxing cigarettes, we have no choice but to use our cars. Public transport is awful, so are the trains. If buses & trains could compete with cars, then we wouldn't get the enormous single-occupant traffic jams that we see today.

Sad to say, it doesn't surprise me that things are the way they are, after all, the last time that Labour was in power, we ended up borrowing money from the IMF like some third-world nation. Where does all the revenue from North Sea oil go? To pay back the loan.

KF

NickF,

You are right in some regard, but the UK does have an enormous tax burden (and rising), and we have some of the worst public funded institutions for a 1st world nation. I can't see why there is such an inbalance.

The governments' only interest is re-election and this is often at odds with the good of the country. The road policy is a prime example of an area where good sense has been deserted in favour of populist and ill informed policy. The public in general need to be shown the inadequacies of the policies and the damage that they are doing so that we can bring to bear pressure to do what is right, rather than what is popular.

If the government were to approach road safety with a reasonable ammount of sense, they wouldn't be able to cut taxes at the end of their period in power, because the best thing for public safety is not pyramid installation of speed cameras, which raises money for governent coffers, but engineering and education - which cost money.

What is my point? My point is that I am not per se in opposition to paying the tax on petrol, but until I see it going into improving the country rather than to the pocket of some benefit fraudster and then to a Japanese electronics giant, I am.

Just my tuppence worth.

KF.

NickF

David RB,

Not to be picky, but .....

Red herring #1
North Sea oil revenue is way lower than in the 80's. I don't know how much it is exactly, but I heard the figures recently and was shocked at just how tiny a percentage of GDP it is.

Red herring #2
Lower earners don't pay VAT on food - it is VAT exempt (though if you choose to eat the garbage served in McFastFood places, you pay VAT on that)

Red herring #3
We have no choice but to use our cars? Whilst this may be true, but we can choose whether to use a 20mpg turbocar, can't we? Of course, this ignores the fact that poorer people who need a car might have an old clunker which needs 4-star, which costs more ..... and the poorer you are, the less choice you have.

Red herring #4
Taxing petrol is like taxing cigarettes? It's worked in the case of cigarettes - the number of smokers in the population is declining steadily, to a large degree due to the fact that they cost so much.

Red herring #5
Cut back on 'all the huge costs'? You mean like the NHS and schools? Every study shows that people want MORE money spent on these. And yes, of course there's a VAST amount of waste in government, but look around the companies you work in and tell me there's no waste there either.

Sorry if this makes me sound like an apologist for Blair & chums - nothing could be further from the truth. I just think we have to accept the fact that if we drive thirsty cars, we have to pay for it. And if we want to conserve what fuel we have left (and it'll run out sooner or later) its use has to be restricted in some way or another.

NickF

DavidRB

#1 Well, it may be low, but a 20+ year loan involves a lot of interest payments, ask anyone with a mortgage!

#2 OK, bad example (makes note to reread Economics books), but the idea is correct, indirect taxes make life harder for the lowest wage earners. Consequently, indirect taxes lead to bigger welfare payments. And I'm no socialist.

#3 True, but the petrol is still the most expensive in Europe, regardless of how much or little I actually use. As you point out, high petrol prices is another form of indirect taxation. Equally, if we use more buses & trains, the prices will go up to pay for the extra fuel usage and extra buses & trains. Most buses & trains in rush hour are pretty full, double the number of commuters using them and the system will collapse, so the money to pay for additional transportation will have to come from somewhere.

#4 Smoking is declining in adults, mainly because of health risks & peer pressure. Smoking among teenage girls is on the increase, yet these are lowest of all wage-earners (stop it! ).

#5 An extortionate amount of money is wasted in the NHS. Trouble is, it's so big & out of control, no-one knows how much is wasted, so they hit the easy targets like nurses' salaries. Plenty of big companies waste money, I agree, but it's their money to waste, not mine. If they waste too much, they go out of business. Plus, most modern private & publically limited companies are continually driving to cut costs.


I don't mind buying more petrol than an owner of a more fuel-efficient car, I am objecting to the way that fuel prices in England go up & up, but never come down.

It all boils down to which is the lesser of two evils, Socialism or Capitalism. Socialism is responsible for impoverising & oppressing half the world's population, Capitalism is responsible for destroying the planet. Anyway, when the oil runs out, civilisation as we know it will end for far more serious reasons than there's no more petrol to put in our cars!

Richard F

Cor, this is all a bit deep..!

I reckon you'll find that capitalism is also responsible for oppressing and impoverising something like 97% of the world's population as there have to be poor people for capitalism to work and there are certainly far more poor people in the world (Africa, much of Asia) than rich (G7 countries).

Socialism is a political idea, it is not a regime in it's own right. Most countries that are socialist are actually run by Communist sympathetic regimes. Socialism doesn't necessarily mean oppression although in practice, that's what has happened.

True socialism is about as achievable as the utopia suggested by Star Trek where we all live without money blah blah blah

Orville

So what happens if fuel prices are cut by 50%? Less people will use public transort and more congestion on the roads. This will give lower fuel economy, more polution and degradate our roads even further.

I am sorry but you cannot have your cake and eat it. Driving cars that return little over 20mpg and complaining about fuel prices is hypocracy.

Rip Off Britain may charge more for new cars and petrol than almost every other county in the world, but what is the alternative. Look at America which has some of most major road congestion problems in the world. Fuel is cheap, cars are cheap, cars are BIG and uneconomic and everyone drives everywhere.

Stop complaining and buy a small econimic car if you son't like it.

MickeyG

I can't beleve this thread. The fact is that we are being robbed. I am more than happy to accept that I have an expensive car to run, I knew this when I bought it. To me the car I drive is irrelevant to the argument.

This said, I do not agree that petrol prices should be used to force people onto public transport. I live in County Durham, where there is no viable alternative to having a car. Buses are cr*p and the train services only run between places I do no want to go to. I am more than happy to use public transport if it is practical, but when it trebles my journey time this is not acceptable.

In my opinion, we should have an integrated transport policy similar to Utrecht in Holland. You can get around easily using whatever combination of transportation you need. Where car is appropriate you take the car. Where train/bus/bike/taxi is appropriate you can use them. The bus stops are next to places where people want to get to - not just where they have always been, and they also wait for trains to arrive before they bugger off etc....

In summary, I would love to see fewer cars on the road, and would love to use public transport, I do not however believe that prices should be continually hiked up on petrol to force people into using naff services. I would like to see the services improved, and offer better VFM - people would be more inclined to use them then.

End of rant,

MickeyG

DavidRB

I should learn to stop joining in, but this is a really interesting one!

Fuel price increases that go to pay for things are OK (putting aside the fact that fuel taxes mostly pay for things unrelated to road transport), even better are fuel price increases that pay for better roads or better public transport. I could live with being priced off the roads if I had the time & the money to get to work reliably by other means. What is unacceptable is fuel price rises every time crude oil goes up, but no drops when the price goes down. This is price fixing, the behaviour of a monopoly or a cartel, and it's illegal.

Owning a 20mpg car and complaining about fuel prices is no less hypocritical than a mother of six children complaining about the price of nappies (diapers for our American viewers ). What's the cut-off point, 55mpg, 50mpg? If I get a car that does 40mpg, can I complain twice as much as the owner of a 20mpg car?

If the price of electricity tripled, would you be happy to sell your big TV, video, computer, fridge freezer & all your other electricity-guzzling appliances and replace them with smaller, cheaper less-capable versions?

Would you be happy if the govt. decided that it didn't like people using the Internet and started hiking up the costs of telephone calls? It's all the same.

Road transport (which includes cars & buses) is not the biggest polluter, it is industry. If we get all the cars off the road, people will have to be transported by diesel-burning buses, diesel-burning trains, or electric tubes & trains that are powered by coal, gas or nuclear power stations, none of which are "clean alternatives", despite what you might have heard. Hydrogen fuel might be clean, but what provides the electricity to make the Hydrogen in the first place?

We are fortunate to live in a democracy where it is my right to be able to complain about anything. Even if I do end up sounding like Victor Meldrew.

Richard F: Interesting Yin Yang theory, do you have to have poor people for rich people to exist? Probably, although under Socialism, there are just poor people.

PT

Point #1

Decreasing petrol prices wouldn't cause extra congestion. Most people want to spend as little time on the roads as possible (obviously don't own a scoob!).

Point #2

Taxes must be collectable - no petrol, no move! Perfick!

Point #3

MOST of the governments revenue from petrol is in the form of DUTY, not VAT.

Point #4

The NHS may be expensive and I agree there is a great deal of waste (especially on the administration of the 'health market' introduced by the tories, BUT, wait until you desparately need them (as I recently have due to a serious illness) and believe you me it is worth every penny of the national insurance and taxes we pay.

Point #4

Why doesn't anyone ever complain about the REAL waste of money by our government - Nuclear arms and projects such as the dome! Politicians P*ss away our tax money on the most riodiculous things. WE NEED schools, hospitals, police, fire brigade, rubbish disposal etc. But when was the last time a nuclear weapon improved the quality of your life?.

Any politician who was bothered with impressing the electorate rather than his 'mates' in parliament and big business would have a real 'common sense revolution', prove that the pen is mightier than the sword and SCRAP the CRAP which wastes taxpayers money!

Point #5
"Anyone who buys a car which can only do 20 odd mpg shouldn't complain about the price of fuel" - whats that got to do with the price of fish? WE ARE BEING RIPPED OFF AND WE SHOULD AT LEAST TRY TO DO WHAT HAS HAPPENNED TO THE CAR INDUSTRY - That is apply consumer pressure. One thing is for certain - 1 oil company complaning to the goverment about drops in revenue will do a whole lot more good to the cause that 100,000 voters doing the same.

Point #6
I'll stop ranting now and crawl back in my hole! :-)

jjones

WE ARE BEING RIPPED OFF

The government need cash - the more cash they can generate the more they can please the population (NHS, Education, Welfare etc) the more they please the population the more likely they are to get re-elected (may seem a bit extreme!).

People are more likely to pay more and more for fuel for the following three reasons:
1) since the change to pricing per litre (was this a euro thingy or just a gov. ploy) the changes seem less drastic. People already accepted a steadily rising increase in petrol prices before the conversion to pricing in litres. It is phsycologically rising the same rate as it did in the good old days when you could buy 2 star!
2) My car is my independence.
3) Whether my car does 20mpg or 40mpg. Puplic transport is all very well but is unreliable and unflexible. If I were to get out of bed 5 minutes later than normal this morning does the bus wait at the stop for me...

I have no choice I have to buy petrol or suffer a decrease in the quality of my life.

As the Crack sang way back in the 70's - "Don't Just Sit There" (do something).



Your taxed on what you earn, your taxed on what you spend. Your taxed on profits made and you taxed on your estate when die. Communism sounds great. Its' only draw back is that some people want to be more equal than others (george orwell - state paid for education!).

My thoughts are:
1) Abolish road tax and leave petrol prices as they are and fix them for a long period.
2) Give haulage companies the same discounts as farmers (i.e. red diesel) to enable them to compete with our euro contempories. (then we can whack them for tax they make on profits!)


This is my ill informed opinion and I will stand corrected if any of the above is incorrect.

Stepping of soap box.


[This message has been edited by jjones (edited 22-06-2000).]

Andrew Timmins

I've had my Scooby for exactly two years. Petrol was about 59.9 a litre back then, the cheapest I can get it now is 82.9.

This is a 38% increase in two years.

Just as well inflation is low .

My parents are retired, non tax payers and on pretty much a fixed income. They are really begining to struggle to run a car due to petrol costs. 1p off the basic rate of tax and other such vote winning measures do nothing to help them. Half the population will be retired soon and many of them will probably be in a similar situation to my parents. Bet they would all vote for a party who said they would either cut or reduce fuel duty.

Why does fuel duty have to increase at a higher rate than inflation?

A programme a couple of weeks ago on BBC1 said most families now spend more on petrol than on food. I don't really think a party which is supposed to represent the working classes should be very proud of this. We are in the minority with a 20mpg car, there must be a lot of people who cannot run any car.

Ian Sutton

Does the SUN read the BB???

Page 15 of todays Current Bun...1st Aug Ban the pumps!! Consider it done.

...Ian

blubs

Nick F,

Fair point on the majority of criminals. If they can be 'mended' then I'm all for it.

Child molesters and drug dealers ARE human waste however and should have no opportunity for rehab, in my opinion.

blubs