AvalancheS8

My poor Scooby got pranged yesterday. Came up behind about 4 cars sitting behind a caravan on a single carriageway A road, just as we were getting to what I knew was a long straight. We came on to the straight, I could see it was clear and went for it. Just as I had passed two of the four cars and was coming past the third, the caravan at the front indicates left and the car behind it pulls out to overtake - right in front of me. I braked hard but was about 5 feet short of space and hit them with maybe a 5 - 10 mph differential speed. Result - for them, slightly pushed in rear bumper and a broken fog light, for me, folded bonnet, broken headlight, bumper and grille, and I suspect bonnet slam panel (can't open bonnet to see though) wings look O.K thankfully. No injuries thankfully, the actual impact was fairly soft.

Was supposed to be using the car for my wedding next weekend !! Oh well !!

Will all be covered on insurance of course, hopefully not mine!, but it's still pretty sickening to see your car all bent like that.

Anyone care to speculate on anything else to get checked on my car, and what the repair bill will be ? Also how the blame for the insurance is likely to fall ? It seems to me that since I was in the middle of my manouver and they pulled into my way (quote from them "What happened? .... I just didn't see you") that the blame should be fairly clearly on them. I was going quickly, but then, I was overtaking, and you don't want to hang about on the wrong side of the road.

Only thing that concerns me slightly is that the insurance company wants me to take the car to the local Arnold Clark, should I get a quote for the Subaru dealer too or is a body shop a body shop ?

Dan B

Any witnesses? Take any photos?

If they have said "I just didn't see you" then that is IMHO an admission of guilt. You wouldn't be let off a speeding fine if you said "I just didn;t see you officer." Its their fault!!!!

As for damage..... Cannot open the boonet, oh dear. That'll be new bonnet, slam panel, radiator mounts, these need welding. Bumper hanger, bumper skin, etc etc etc. Hows the radiator anyway? Any aircon. Repair bills get very high very quickly! Hopefully you don't have an import!

I think you can get quotes from two garages of your choice and show the insurnace company. Taking it to an insurance approved repairers will mean it will get don't a bit more quickly though. Don't forget to get your excess out of the other driver, as this is an uninsured loss.

AvalancheS8

Hmm. Witnesses wise I took the Reg No. of the Caravan, since he was stopped cleaning the glass from my headlight off his car. I don't think he will have really seen what happened though as it was pretty much behind him. Unfortunately neither of us has a camera available, so no photos. My feeling is as you said that the other car simply didn't look in their mirrors before pulling out, certainly, they didn't really seem to know exactly what had happened. But I guess it will come down to my word against theirs, hopefully they will have the good grace to admit they made a mistake.

Damage wise, Yikes!! I thought it might be a fair bit, although, fortunately (!) it is a '97 Uk car, it doesn't have aircon, and the radiator, as far as I can tell is O.K. There is no doubt that it will be more than my £350 excess if I have to pay it, so I guess it is reasonably academic really. Hopefully it goes against the other car and my excess doesn't come into things.

I have a feeling that I may end up having to just go with the approved repariers simply because I only have until the weekend to sort it and get things under way as I will be away on honeymoon for 2 weeks from next weekend (something good to look forward too !!). We'll see though, I may be able to take it by the Subaru dealer too as it is basically across the road from where the insurance company wants it to go to.

pugoetru

you are just as much to blame as you were on the wrong side of the road and you should be able to react quick enough to avoid a collision it could be argued you were not in control as you failled to stop in time!
not trying to put you down just dont think the blame will go to them it could go either way.

good luck!

pugoetru

Dont let arnold touch it!

AvalancheS8

Yes, I was on the wrong side of the road too, but overtaking is allowed, it's not like I was in the wrong to be overtaking, and it's not like they were already out there and then I pulled out and drove into them. As far as I can see it's pretty much akin to if a car pulls out of a side road in front of you and you hit them, the blame surely falls on them, I didn't have enough space to stop, but it wasn't me that created that situation, it was them pulling in front of me that left me without space to stop.

Thanks for the reassurance on Arnolds abilities !! think I'll give the Subaru dealers a call.

Webdunk

"you are just as much to blame as you were on the wrong side of the road and you should be able to react quick enough to avoid a collision it could be argued you were not in control as you failed to stop in time!"

Surely this can't be how the law views it... can it?

Turn the tables a little... whose fault would it be if you pulled out to overtake into the face of an ONcoming car. Certainly not the oncoming car! So why would the overtaking car bear any responsibility for the clown who pulls out in front of them in this instance?

Scooby96

get the claim in quick as they may turn round and say you drove into the back of them (which technically you did)

chockymonster

I've been in a similar this situation.
Overtaking a lorry, he pulled out to overtake another vehicle but I was already level with the cab of his lorry and had nowhere to go.

My claim was a 75 - 25 liability (25% my fault)
Seeing as you were behind him and hit him up the rear, I don't think it's going to go well for you

Dazza01

Remember the highway code and back to ur driving lesson,
M S M
check MIRROR , then SIGNAL , then MANOUVER

Simple really, he signaled 1st, then pulled out but forgot to check his MIRROR's, thereby causing u to go straight up his **** end.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

There's a "reasonably expect" aspect to this - could the guy that pulled out "reasonably expect" to find a car overtaking him at that point? He may have checked his mirrors when you were just starting your manoevre & not seen you then... Also "went for it" doesn't inspire one with the idea that you were not exceeding the speed limit. Guess that caravan was doing (say) 40 when it hit the straight & you went for it when you could, overtook 2 cars, then I'd say that you might have been traveling quite fast. These scoobs don't half shift ( ) so that is another reason why the driver might not expect to have someone overtaking him...

Also, because you are on the other side of the dividing line, there is a greater onus on you to be aware of whats going on. You must take more care because you are on the wrong side of the road.

Why did the caravan indicate left? Was it pulling over? Indicating road ahead clear or turning left? If t/left then not a wise place to overtake coming up to a junction, especially if you know the road.

It may be that the caravan slowed suddenly & the car behind had to move out to take avoiding action.

You've got to always leave enough margin for other people's errors...

I'd say, without witnesses, then unless the other party coughs, it'll go 50/50.

Fantom

Overtaking 4 cars then a caravan is a pretty risky maneuvure to take! Considering the long straight surely you must have thought the first driver would have tried to overtake?
I can't see you winning the claim easily I'm afraid.

Steve

Webdunk

"Overtaking 4 cars then a caravan is a pretty risky maneuvure to take! Considering the long straight surely you must have thought the first driver would have tried to overtake?"

Sometimes it's the only way to pass though... how many times have you seen a queue of traffic behind a slower vehicle where the queue has left enough stopping distance between cars to allow an overtaking can to tuck back in? I can't recall having seen this in recent memory which often means I'll pass a number of vehicles at once - particularly if I judge my vehicle to be more capable of the overtake than those ahead of me.

There are also occassions when having pulled out, you have such good visibility that continuing the overtake can be safer than tucking back into the queue only to try and pull back out the next time an opportunity presents...

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Forgot to say ( ) sorry that its happened Recently had my p&j dented & I know how gutting it is - whatever happened. Hope it gets fixed soon.

AvalancheS8

Yeah, to be honest I think I am more or less at the mercy of the other driver. I got my claim in within 1/2 an hour, they tired to phone their company at the side of the road but they were shut (sunday) so at least I have got things moving first. I believe that the caravan was probably indicating to pull into the entrance to the driveway of a house off the road, there certainly wasn't actually a junction. Had all been well I'd have been comfortably past in less than 1/2 the straight, i.e another me could have done the same thing coming the other way and we wouldn't have hit. No point in pretending I wasn't travelling fairly quickly at the point I had to anchor up, but unless I am mistaken, the highway code incourages you to get the overtake over as quickly as possible and get back onto the left, certainly it would seem ridiculous to attempt to overtake whilst not using the full abilities of your car, you certainly wouldn't pull out accelerate gently to the speed limit and then sit there at a constant speed waiting to crawl past. Anyway, just as they can claim I drove into the back of them, they have no way to prove how fast I was going, the same accident could easily happen with everybody driving below the limit and then who's fault is it ?

Still, I'll be feeling pretty lucky if it goes all my way, I'll be surprised if they will repeat their statement that they just didn't see me there when it comes down to it, but, fingers crossed.

Just dropped the car off at the body shop and picked up the courtesy Corsa...... well, not much to say about the Corsa.

Thanks for your comments and support folks.

Edited to add:

The nice ironic twist is that I had just got the car all cleaned and Zymolled up and immaculate as is was supposed to be the bridal car for my wedding on Saturday (wife-to-be loves the Scooby too) and part 2: I am currently waiting for my 4 pot Brembos from the group buy to turn up....

[Edited by AvalancheS8 - 7/7/2003 2:07:06 PM]

Dan B

Forgot to add sorry... It'll feel like a rocket ship when you get it back

IMHO it's not your fault! Make the analogy of a car pulling into your lane on the motorway without looking.

Personally i would say that the third party was not fully aware of what was happening around their vehicle. He should have known that you were there, thats what mirrors are for, and thats why people should alway check blind spots before overtaking and lane changes.

Don't even hint that you were responsible. Tell your insurance company all the details, and forward anything sent to you by the third party. At the end of the day the insurers will decide who was to blame, but I wil be suprised and worried if they put it on you.

greasemonkey

I suspect the other party's insurance company will argue that Avalanche wasn't either. Overtaking four cars and a caravan in line is an inherently risky manouevre, as there's always the possibility that one of the other cars would make a sudden move - either to overtake, or indeed to take other sorts of emergency action. There's an onus on the overtaking driver to be aware of such possibilities, and drive accordingly.

Also, bearing in mind that Avalanche could have got past, by his own admission, in half the length of the straight he had available, there was probably an argument for not "going for it" (that sort of wording does not look good!) and trying to pass as quickly as possible. Better to make more use of the available space, and reduce the speed differential between himself and the queue he was passing, making any braking/avoidance an easier proposition.

Either way, this is not a clear-cut situation. If the Constabulary got involved, I daresay they'd take a dimmer view of Avalanche's actions, than those of the other driver for example.

As to the insurance companies apportioning blame, a lot would depend on exactly where on each car the impact took place. If the other driver had pulled out and hit the side of Avalanche's car, for example, the other driver would have been largely to blame. If, however, the other car was fully past the centreline, and Avalanche drove squarely into the back of it, I'm afraid the majority of the blame drops squarely into A's lap, as this would be construed as driving into the back of someone.

As has been said above, I daresay the insurers will settle 50/50, which is unfortunate for both parties.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Just for clarification, exceeding the speed limit in an overtaking manoeuvre is still exceeding the speed limit & an offence, irresprctive of the capabilities of your car.

Webdunk

"As to the insurance companies apportioning blame, a lot would depend on exactly where on each car the impact took place. If the other driver had pulled out and hit the side of Avalanche's car, for example, the other driver would have been largely to blame. If, however, the other car was fully past the centreline, and Avalanche drove squarely into the back of it, I'm afraid the majority of the blame drops squarely into A's lap, as this would be construed as driving into the back of someone. "

That's a fairly sad state of affairs. It means economically it would be better to let the eedjit pull into you than to brake and try to avoid them! Bonkers.

scoobydevil1

hi m8 sorry to read about the scooby.
you can borrow my bug eye in wr blue for ya wedding if it helps

Had the same thing a few years ago over taking a whole line of traffic in a customers group A rally car had all the lights on (so thats dipped head lights and 4 oscars on the bonnet) just get to the last car of 10 and i can see the bloke looking in his mirror i had taken the opportunity to pull half in where there was gaps but there was no on comming for as far as you could see as i approch the last car (mazda mr2) he pulls straight into the side of me , very messy my insurance company were very good and he paid for it all , basicly came down to the fact you should be ready for anything on the road and when moving over the white line check your mirrors which he did'nt the old bill took the same view.
if you have checked there is no on coming and some one pulls out as you are over taking how can it be your fault if they checked their mirrors they would have seen you.

AvalancheS8

"Just for clarification, exceeding the speed limit in an overtaking manoeuvre is still exceeding the speed limit & an offence, irresprctive of the capabilities of your car."

Oh, absolutely, I'm not disputing that, but if there is no way of proving the speeds of the vehicles involved, and there isn't then you surely have to take that out of the equation and deal with the remaining facts.

I'm not trying to paint myself all angelic here, just discuss it and see what experiences other have had. I will be surprised to come out entirely in the clear, and being completely honest, once I was on the other side of the road and overtaking, I was paying attention to what was going on, not to looking at the speedo, so I can't say exacly how fast I was going before I started braking, I certainly wasn't looking down as I closed in on the other car with my brakes full on. Thing is they didn't even know who had hit who unitl after we pulled over, so it's not like they were looking in their mirror going "Oh No! he's going to hit us" (picture me with bugged out eyes and white knuckles closing on them from behind!!), so I was on the brakes from the moment they started to come out, but they had managed to get right across in front of me by the time I caught them quite neatly right in the middle of their bumper, a couple of seconds later. Hence, I did hit them square on in the back of their car, which looks bad. Hey ho, first actual accident involving insurance in 11 years driving.

Edit:

"you can borrow my bug eye in wr blue for ya wedding if it helps"

Aw, shucks, I'm genuinely touched, but it's cool, we can use another car !!

[Edited by AvalancheS8 - 7/7/2003 4:36:06 PM]

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Ava

That was in response to that comment - it was for clarification, not comment on what may/may not have taken place.

AvalancheS8

That was in response to that comment - it was for clarification, not comment on what may/may not have taken place.

Cool, I wasn't really trying to disagree, just going off a little into what sensible reasoning might be in terms of overtaking, i.e no one sensible would suggest, I hope, spending longer on the other side of the road than necessary, and being exposed for instance to an oncoming biker coming round the next corner at a potentially very high speed. So it is reasonable to suppose that you should pass quickly. It is also reasonable to suppose that you would want particularly to be paying attention to what was going on around you, and hence, not exactly monitoring your speed. So this puts you at risk of inadvertantly exceeding the speed limit, and while this is illegal I would hope that failure to pay due care and attention in the form of not giving maximum attention to your surroundings and the other vehicles would be viewed as worse. It kind of leaves you in a catch 22 situation. Equally I would hope that allowing space for other vehicles on the basis of "well, providing he's not speeding that's enough space" and then pulling out regardless would be regarded as suicidally dangerous, although you do get people refusing to allow passing on dual carriage ways using that "logic". All of which leads me to hope that since all that the other driver can say is "I think he might have been speeding, but I don't know because the first time I saw him was when he pulled in to the side of the road behind us to look at the damage to the cars." that speed shouldn't really come in to it.

chockymonster

If you think that is bonkers, back in the dim and distant past of my driving career (about 8 months after passing my test) I was driving up the A127 from southend to lakeside in my little 1.1 fiesta. Just before I got to the NSL outside of southend a white sierra cosworth lost control of his car on the other carriage way, flipped over the armaco barrier and stopped some 20ft in front of me. I had no where to go and wasn't able to stop in time
Lots of witnesses saw it happen, my insurance company paid out to repair his car. It was my fault apparantly!

greasemonkey

The easiest way to minimise the time over the centreline would have been to overtake one or two vehicles at a time. The first rule of overtaking is doing it safely. It could be argued that committing yourself to overtaking the entire queue in one go was inherently dangerous. Look all the way through the Highway Code, and you'll only find reference to overtaking single vehicles!

Yes, totally ridiculous. The fact that you piled into the back of someone would indicate that you carried out the manoeuvre while paying no attention whatsoever to the ability of your brakes!

Using your car's ability to accelerate is one thing, but why weren't you thinking about its ability to stop?

Sorry, but this is macho rubbish, plain silly. Flooring the throttle to pass a queue of traffic irrespective of other considerations is dangerous, pure and simple, given the proximity to other traffic the danger of one of them pulling out, and the speed differentials likely to be involved.

That wouldn't stand up in court. The underlying problem was you trying to do the entire line of traffic in one hit (no pun intended), and the speed differential this decision created between yourself and the car you hit.

If there was a danger of encountering a biker coming round the next corner at very high speed, you shouldn't have committed yourself to overtaking the entire line of traffic in the first place.

... And safely. Again, nowhere in the Highway Code does it suggest passing a queue of traffic in one go. You also say you knew the road, and were preparing to overtake as you rounded the previous corner. Did you not consider that some of the other cars in the queue might also have known the road and be preparing to overtake? Did you not consider that, driving "normal" cars, none of them would have considered how quickly a fast-accelerating turbocharged car might close down on them?

If you'd picked them off one at a time, they'd each have had plenty of chance to see you in their mirrors, and you'd have had plenty of time to see if any of them also planned to pass the caravan.

If you were paying adequate attention to what was going on around you, and were driving to the abilities of your car, you wouldn't have piled into the back of another vehicle!

Sorry, I know you've had a bad day and all, but while the actions of the other guy were material to this collision occurring, your own driving also played a central part. With a bit of luck you'll learn something from it, and prevent it repeating in future. The important thing on this occasion was that nobody was injured. Cars can easily be fixed.

mart360

Avalanche

sorry to add some more fuel onto the fire and give this a downard slant

IMHO i would run this by a good brief,,

overtaking four cars leaves you open to an "undue care and attention" action , as it could be argued that you should be aware of the possible actions of the other drivers, especially with regards to overtaking maneuvers?? I believe the onus is it should be carried out as safley as possibly with minumum risk,

the arguement against could be why were you not aware of:

a)The general road layout
b)what would you have done if (i) a car had come the other way &
(ii) what would have happened if a car in the que?? had turned right?

if you were overtaking on a junction your insurance co may take a dim view, and if the guy you tagged makes an allegation of undue care and attention it could get messy

hence contact the brief

sorry to be a bringer of bad news, but as a witness to a similar incedent ( mototcycle overtaking and tagging a car doing a right turn) these were the questions that were asked by the old bill

and they asked who i thought was to blame.. ( bearing in mind its an official statement, under caution etc)

mart

m5

SN never ceases to amaze me.

We have people who have a half-decent car then suddenly think they have super-human abilities. If you hit another car up the rear, it is YOUR fault. Period.

This board is brimming with instances of people who have had an accident but then somehow think someone else is to blame. And, probably the most galling of all, the same people moan when they get done for speeding.

Driving fast is about safety, observation and not taking risks. In this instance, it sounds like all three principles have been breached.

StickyMicky

over taking all them cars and a caravan is daft lol

to over take all them cars and a carvan, would say to me that u were steaming along the road.

which would also give the impresion that the bloke pulled out and never saw you becuase u came flying up so dam fast.

Leslie

If someone pulls out in front of you while you are legally overtaking it seems to me that he is to blame for not checking the lane was clear before he pulled out into it. I dont think you can be blamed for driving into the back of his car because you were unable to stop in such a case.

Les

Dan B

If this is true then the third party never used his mirrors in the first place, and after. If they had seen you about to plough into the back of them then they should have used their common sense and get back out of the hole they came from. There are so many ignorant and very **** drivers on the road, this whole thing could have been avoided if he had simply followed what he had been taught before passing his driving test, USE THE MIRRORS.

What car was the other guy in? n/a 1.8-2ltr, 120bhp max? You can argue that if it wasn't safe for YOU to overtake, what was this guy thinking in the first place by trying to overtake?