Why do the yanks have a 2.5 engine!!!!!!!!!!
20 February 2003, 08:46 PM
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Well, have you ever heard of a motor smaller than a 2.5 being able to pull the size of a yank around???
You will also find that it is only europe and Uk that dont get them, most other countries have them available, and in both impreza and forester, cant see why they cant bring the forester pickup into the uk, much better than IM's idea of a pickup with the TF Isuzu, what a joke, talk about "basic",seen more options in a lego set
[Edited by scoobyslut - 2/20/2003 8:47:46 PM]
You will also find that it is only europe and Uk that dont get them, most other countries have them available, and in both impreza and forester, cant see why they cant bring the forester pickup into the uk, much better than IM's idea of a pickup with the TF Isuzu, what a joke, talk about "basic",seen more options in a lego set
[Edited by scoobyslut - 2/20/2003 8:47:46 PM]
20 February 2003, 08:47 PM
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Emission regs IIRC can extract 300bhp out of a 2.5 and stay with regs. A lot more difficult to get it out of a 2.0 and stay within regs. maybe wrong though. I am waiting for the 3.0 version.
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20 February 2003, 08:59 PM
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I think it's probably a torque thing, americans don't tend to like revving engines. Regulated emissions shouldn't be affected by engine size/power-density, there's probably a slight CO2 benefit from upping the capacity (less need to over-fuel) but that wouldn't worry the Kyoto friendly yanks. John
20 February 2003, 09:04 PM
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To achieve the same bhp they dont need to turn the boost up as much. So a lot easier to tune the car for emissions and use the capacity to give the power. Also doesnt amercian fuel have a lower ron mon or something like that.
[Edited by chrisp - 2/20/2003 9:06:17 PM]
[Edited by chrisp - 2/20/2003 9:06:17 PM]
20 February 2003, 10:37 PM
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American premium fuel is the same octane index as ours, it's just that they label it differently, they use (RON + MON)/2 for some unknown reason. Chrisp, if it wasn't for three way cats I'd agree wholeheartedly, I don't think US emissions legislation is any tougher than the current Euro regs though. Dans guess sounds pretty likely to me. J
23 February 2003, 08:27 PM
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Being a Brit living in America perhaps I can add some insight here. The EPA plus california emissions are very strict (more strict than Europe). Most states are moving to rolling road emission testing with measurements taken upto about 4,000 RPM. Subaru were having lots of problems with both the weight of the vehicle and getting the power output. (EPA formulas are based both on emissions and vehicle weight). They absolutely needed to beat Mitsubishi. California in particular has a huge street racing scene. The kids spend tons of money on Honda's, Acuras and Toyotas. There is a huge modification market that Subaru want's to be part of.
I think Subaru were pretty smart going with the 2.5. It leaves plenty of modification potential and gets the car well under the emission standards. The only issue will be price. Yanks are very price concious. Rumor has it the Sti will be about $32K. Much more than that and lots of people will walk and get an Evo. Put a Ralliart performance pack on it and easily get 300hp. I have my Sti on order now. expecting delivery in June. Just saw it for the first time at the Chicago Auto show. Looks just like any other Sti but it looks much better with the new lights.
And yes Yanks do have a weight problem, but most of these cars will be bought by under 35 year olds who have yet to develop the middle age spread. It is much easier to insure high performance cars in the US as a kid and you are a lot less likely to have it stolen or wrecked.
I think Subaru were pretty smart going with the 2.5. It leaves plenty of modification potential and gets the car well under the emission standards. The only issue will be price. Yanks are very price concious. Rumor has it the Sti will be about $32K. Much more than that and lots of people will walk and get an Evo. Put a Ralliart performance pack on it and easily get 300hp. I have my Sti on order now. expecting delivery in June. Just saw it for the first time at the Chicago Auto show. Looks just like any other Sti but it looks much better with the new lights.
And yes Yanks do have a weight problem, but most of these cars will be bought by under 35 year olds who have yet to develop the middle age spread. It is much easier to insure high performance cars in the US as a kid and you are a lot less likely to have it stolen or wrecked.
23 February 2003, 09:09 PM
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I don't agree that the Federal drive cycle is tougher than the UDC+EUDC used over here.
The main emissions concerns lay with the cold section of the cycle before the catalyst has reached operating temperature, the only concern at higher speed/load is the CO2 burden, and that's not something (sadly) America tends to worry about.
Incidentally, how much is the normal WRX in the states?
The main emissions concerns lay with the cold section of the cycle before the catalyst has reached operating temperature, the only concern at higher speed/load is the CO2 burden, and that's not something (sadly) America tends to worry about.
Incidentally, how much is the normal WRX in the states?
24 February 2003, 03:35 AM
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You are probably right with EPA rules. California is a different ball game all together. With the new LEV rules most cars now have 3 cat's to pass. Most manufacturers set their emission output to the California standard not Federal.
Here is some interesting detail on the currenct US and California standards
Tier 1 – The weakest of the federal U.S. regulations, Tier 1 was introduced in 1994 and fully implemented in 1997. It applies to all light duty vehicles, which are vehicles of less than 8,500 lbs. Within this category, vehicles are divided into passenger cars and light and heavy light duty trucks. SUVs, minivans and pickup trucks are designated to fall into the latter two categories, which allow up to 250 per cent more emissions than passenger cars.
Tier 2 – This U.S. federal regulation closes the loophole that allows SUVs to emit more than passenger cars, but does not take effect until 2004. SUVs are not required to comply by 2009. It also raises the “useful life” of a vehicle from 100,000 miles in Tier 1 to 120,000 miles. Of particular importance is the reduction in Nitrogen Oxides, which are reduced from 88 to 95 per cent from Tier 1 levels.
LEV I & II – California’s first Low Emission Vehicle Program came into effect in 1993 containing requirements on auto manufacturers to sell zero- and ultralow-emission vehicles. The second phase of LEV takes effect in 2004 and is the strictest emission standard in North America, covering vehicles up to 14,000 lbs and allowing only a third of the Nitrogen Oxide emissions that Tier 2 permits.
NLEV – The National Low Emission Vehicle program is a voluntary program that includes the northeastern states and automakers. It came into effect in 1999 in the northeastern U.S., and in 2001 nationally as in intermediate federal standard between Tiers 1 and 2. The NLEV is based on California’s LEV I program, although unlike the LEV I program, large SUVs are not regulated and are instead covered by Tier 1 standards.
The WRX is $25,250 Auto or $24,250 list but you can pick them up for $22,262 or $23,216 respectively which would be about 14,000 or 14,500 pounds. However you need to add $500 destination charges, about 6.5 8.5 sales tax to that number before you get true apples to apples.
www.edmunds.com is a good site to research US car prices.
Here is some interesting detail on the currenct US and California standards
Tier 1 – The weakest of the federal U.S. regulations, Tier 1 was introduced in 1994 and fully implemented in 1997. It applies to all light duty vehicles, which are vehicles of less than 8,500 lbs. Within this category, vehicles are divided into passenger cars and light and heavy light duty trucks. SUVs, minivans and pickup trucks are designated to fall into the latter two categories, which allow up to 250 per cent more emissions than passenger cars.
Tier 2 – This U.S. federal regulation closes the loophole that allows SUVs to emit more than passenger cars, but does not take effect until 2004. SUVs are not required to comply by 2009. It also raises the “useful life” of a vehicle from 100,000 miles in Tier 1 to 120,000 miles. Of particular importance is the reduction in Nitrogen Oxides, which are reduced from 88 to 95 per cent from Tier 1 levels.
LEV I & II – California’s first Low Emission Vehicle Program came into effect in 1993 containing requirements on auto manufacturers to sell zero- and ultralow-emission vehicles. The second phase of LEV takes effect in 2004 and is the strictest emission standard in North America, covering vehicles up to 14,000 lbs and allowing only a third of the Nitrogen Oxide emissions that Tier 2 permits.
NLEV – The National Low Emission Vehicle program is a voluntary program that includes the northeastern states and automakers. It came into effect in 1999 in the northeastern U.S., and in 2001 nationally as in intermediate federal standard between Tiers 1 and 2. The NLEV is based on California’s LEV I program, although unlike the LEV I program, large SUVs are not regulated and are instead covered by Tier 1 standards.
The WRX is $25,250 Auto or $24,250 list but you can pick them up for $22,262 or $23,216 respectively which would be about 14,000 or 14,500 pounds. However you need to add $500 destination charges, about 6.5 8.5 sales tax to that number before you get true apples to apples.
www.edmunds.com is a good site to research US car prices.
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