V-techland

Just exactly how old are you Kenny??

Thats not meant in a patronising context, I was genuinely curious!

[Edited by V-techland - 11/4/2002 3:16:25 PM]

Amanda-Jane

When I was 17 my Dad sent me to Knockhill every weekend for 2 months driver training for the track, skid pan etc, etc so I don't really think it is necessary for me to go on such a course but thanks for thinking of me.

Amanda

[Edited by Amanda-Jane - 11/4/2002 3:45:05 PM]

juan

D'oh I don't want to get dragged in here.

Whilst we may be able to compete with Michael on reaction times alone I expect he can recover a car much quicker and much more safely than 99.9% of us here through experience alone for starters and thats before ability even comes into the equation.

An advanced driving course is obviously the best way for mere mortals like us to safely start to gain that sort of experience but no thats rejected. Its gotta be the best few hundred quid you can spend on improving the handling of your car.

All I'm saying is is it worth spending 50 years of your life feeling awful for the sake of a few extra mph on a public road, espescially when you've just had a wake up call like that. I'm trying to say SB got off blinking lightly and its something to learn from rather than dismiss as a car's fault.

I fully agree that observation / anticipation is a major factor. Something else which obviously failed here despite protestations to the contrary, something else to learn from, rather than immediately claim to fully know the limits of oneself and one's car.
I beg to argue that claim and offer the aforementioned incident as pretty irrefutible evidence.

I can't comment on the alleged fueling problem. Maybe others have experienced this on certain tracks if it is a design flaw.
Whether this contributed to the incident or not, it has to be classed as one of the limits of the car and again suggests that in this case not all the car's limits are known as claimed and there is more to learn.

[pompous **** mode off]

[Edited by juan - 11/4/2002 6:53:12 PM]

Little Miss WRX

I will back up Theo here and ask why you have not answered the questions about track days?

As I have said before, I used to be like you SB< always pushing the car - but on the road. Is it really worth the risk? Is it?

Many people will have stories of how I used to drive, I am not proud in anyway, I have very much slowed down and become more aware. I drive with the view that people around me are oging to make a mistake. With that in mind, I feel I never want to be near the car's limit where it may hinder me from making a life saving move away from danger.

Keep the kind of risque attitude on track, it is a safer environment and you will get far more enjoyment out of it

Michelle.
Been there, done that, got the points (for speeding only ) blah, blah

[Edited by Little Miss WRX - 11/4/2002 6:39:51 PM]

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

Saxo Boy

Glad to hear you are OK.
Fuel cut may or may not be part of your mishap. However - FACT scoobys can suffer from fuel cut when cornering with 1/4 of a tank or under. Many people don't know this. Never thrash your Scooby through bends with less than 1/4 of a tank.

I have much driving experience having driven plant, lorries, old bangers, perfomance cars, off road 4WD all over the world, almost died in a VR6 a few years back have been on sessions with Don Palmer and so on. I am very confident and defensive in my Scooby.... However Scoobys do have very high levels of grip which means that if driven properly you have far less chance of losing it. But because they are so quick and have this huge traction/grip if you do lose it, it will probably be at a high speed and it will not be progresive. This always worries me as I know that if it does go it will be very quick and very very difficult to catch. And on the road there isn't much room to play with and you only need to hit a tree and you are dead.

So I think that no matter what your training is, certain real life situations happen so quickly that perhaps there is not a huge amount you could do. So don't blame yourself for not catching it.

I still think you should go and see Don Palmer... That man can drive!

Another rule I have is that when pushing my car. I only push to 90% of what it will/I can do. I never drive it flat out on the limit (It may look like that to other people but I don't) I always leave that 10% breathing room just in case. When it is wet I rack it down to 70-80% of what it will/I can do.

Not preaching. Just my thoughts. We are all human. Who is to say that I don't hit a tree tommorrow!

Glad to hear that you are OK and that no one was hurt
Best wishes
Steve



[Edited by Steve Whitehorn - 11/4/2002 8:23:19 PM]

Little Miss WRX

I would listen (or read ) carefully to posts that PTMW!, EvilBevel and DocJock put up, I don't think anyone would argue with me when I say they fecking well know what they are talking about!!!

As for RichardPON, I can't comment as I don't know him - sorry rich

I like that you have thrown caution to the wind and just posted up your post regardless of whether you were going to get flamed (which was admittedly inevitable )
My worry is that you are going to go back out and try to push and push the limits of the car on public roads without some track experience in it. I can't urge you enough to go out on a track and do this!!!! You start learning about the cars limits on track - there are so many varying factors on the road including the danger to other people if you get it wrong. Public roads are not places to push the limits, I don't care how fecking well you know the road.

Please, say you will look into track days - you are lucky enough to be near Knockhill which is a fantastic track of which I am envious of your proximity to it as I live fecking miles from it!!!!

I don't want you or others to learn the hard way like so many of us have.

Cheers,

Michelle.

[Edited by Little Miss WRX - 11/4/2002 10:36:59 PM]

Little Miss WRX

Kenny,

Massive differnece between road and track - you won't be endangering innocnet drivers on the track.

I have done several track days and certainly that, as well as the many incidents that have made me IMHO mature have caused me to reconsider pushing the limits on the road.

You need to get on one, have you actually done one? Yes they are expensive, but worth every penny. The Knockhill ones are a hell of a lot cheaper than the Southern circuits. John Stewart does an awesome job of organising them.
If it is raining you have a fantastic time sliding your car or trying to keep the fastest line in the wet with minimal tyre wear.

I look back now and laugh at how my attitude was the opposite of what it is now a year or two back.

[Edited by Little Miss WRX - 11/5/2002 12:10:23 AM]

Diablo

Saxo, something confuses me...

Wide open sweeping corners and you were drifting at 75 to 85 mph, where the Saxo would take it at 90 plus no problem?

Mate, that should not be happening at that speed. I have driven that road at that speed in my old MY99 no problem, with no drifting.

The fact it was a *blur* means you were well outside your limits and panicked, albeit for a short time.

Not flaming you, I've been there and done that, so to speak.

The big question you are asking was why?

Simple - you were driving outwith YOUR abilities and that of the car, for reasons of tyre and probably duff geometry. Its really that simple.

It appears that it wasn't lift off oversteer, under the curcumstances you describe in later posts. It reads more like power oversteer or a steady state loss of rear end grip. In which case you had no weight transfer to speak of and getting hard in the power was a bit of a daft thing to do. More power at that point could force the issue of a spin, whereas a *gentle* lift may help.

Its not quite as simple as boot it when the back lets go and you clearly don't know your physics if you think it is.

From your first post, though it reads like lift off oversteer, which is all down to you I'm afraid.

Moving on, when my first set of tyres were down to the bare minimum, my scoob would let go at the back under pretty minimal provocation.

Oh and you contradict yourself

and

you either were or were not - make up your mind. Either way, you were pushing too hard in a car with dodgy tyres and geometry. Anyway, as I said at the start of the post, you should no way have been drifting it at the speeds you claim, unless you were ******* about trying to promote drift perhaps...


On a final point, you have admitted in this thread that your car is probably not set up correctly and was on dodgy tyres, yet you were still pushing it hard. Its that point that confirms you have a lot to learn, regardless of how good you think you are. If you didn't have a lot to learn, you would not be having this on line discussion.

Not giving you a hard time for driving to fast, but for being a **** and driving to fast with the aforementioned tyre/geometry and ability issues.

D



Still, glad all was ok.



[Edited by Diablo - 11/5/2002 1:07:49 AM]

LEE P

Hiya saxo boy, im glad you and you mota are o.k.
But from you attitude you sound like your going to do the same again,i know my cars limits and have explored them, ive shattered subaru myths in a short ownership, you make driving subarus sound like putty in your hand.
if it was that easy you are a natural talent and are wasted.
im not slagging you off but you simply cant explore a imprezas limits on the road, thats why on track you tyres and brakes take such punishment.
ive only done 600 track miles so im a novice and its a learning experience on every outing!
the best thing i did was get instruction, makes your whole attitude to driving change, smoother the better.
i know you said you were going for smoothness buti havent seen you drive so carnt comment.
if you spun it in the dry something must of gone sadly wrong, but it sounds like your pride has taken a huge dent, as a poor workman always blames his tools
maybe it was overboost that caused the violent cut out? or in correct tyre pressures or a slow puncture that caused the spin?
im only 29 myself and still class myself as a novice driver, but thats the differance im open to learning and to take advice, when i was your age i thought i was a good driver, but 5 years on ive realised i wasnt so good, and 5 years from now i will probably think the same.
so please listen to the more experienced ones on this thread and take heed!
the road is never 100percent clear unless your mystic meg!
driver error is hard to swallow, i know ive been there, it only takes a lapse of concentration and goodnight.
p.s get the wheels pointing in the right direction, falkland are pretty good at this.
cheers lee

p.s ive only had fuel surge on track with slicks and it only caused it to bog down as puff said. and worn tyres in the dry would be more of a benefit as a bigger tyre print and less rubber to roll on. just a thought?

[Edited by LEE P - 11/5/2002 1:34:36 AM]

LEE P

diabalos hit the nail with the denial bit!
to say subarus let go at the backend even when going slow is hard to beleive!;D
i did 58000 miles in mine in 20 months, and spun it twice!
once in the snow coz i was being a dick and it cost me dearly (driver error)
and the second time was in the pouring rain at croft going round the complex after sunny, concentration slipped went in to fast and to deep. (driver error) but then im not shuey. and in that case it wasnt stick the foot in as i would of been in the barrier,it was more dab the front brakes clutch in and lock it round to get the front end facing the right way on the grass!
you should see the vid its a hoot!

[Edited by LEE P - 11/5/2002 1:59:06 AM]

davyboy

If any Scoobynetter can beat JF around the Nurburgring, I would pay to see it!

[Edited by davyboy - 11/5/2002 8:26:40 AM]

Neil Smalley

Just spent the last few minutes reading through this thread.
There seems to be a common theme running through these kind of 'had an accident when driving fast' threads.

The theme is that there are a number of people being seemingly hypocritical about driving fast on the road.
Keep it for the track, is a commonly spouted maxim on here, but how many of us do?

This article http://212.100.225.147:81/tac/default.asp?storyId=5677 is one of the best on 'road racing' i've read for a while.

We all drive too fast sometimes, its in our nature. So therefore the issue should be not 'you've been a bad boy and driven too fast' but 'What is our attitude to our own driving too fast?'

Saxoboy is quite right when he says that driving ability cannot be judged by reading someones posts on the net. BUT we can get a reasonable view of their attitude.

For example, read Chapter 1 of 'Roadcraft, the police driver training manual' Before they even go into the 'fancy stuff' it questions you on your attitude. Even if you don't buy it, go into Smiths and read that first chapter. It's a real eye opener.

Personally, i'm not sure if Saxo Boy was posting on here to 'boast' about his near miss, or to try and ascertain where he went wrong(accidents due to poor maintence is still driver error BTW). BUT of more importance is his(and everyone elses) attitudes going forwards.

We all like to think we are Schuyesque in our driving abilities, but we also forget he has had one major injury due to a crash and several other major crashes which only the construction of the car saved his life. We're not driving formula 1 cars, or WRC cars but ROAD cars with all the limitations and compromises that implies.

Furthermore these ROAD cars are driven by people who may or may not be concentrating on what they are doing.

I've heard reports of the 'old michelle' driving and quite frankly she had to calm down, or she would have killed herself or others. She was big enough and mature enough to recognise this in herself and make the appropriate changes to her driving style.

The ideal result of this thread would be for everyone to take a long hard look at themselves and assess their own risks of having an accident. Don't fool yourself by giving the 'right answers' just to pass the tests, answer truthfully and honestly, it might just save someones life.

Here endeth the lesson


[Edited by Neil Smalley - 11/5/2002 9:45:26 AM]

Diablo

Saxo,

Read the posts again.

No one is saying they are better than you. Very few are being hypocritical.

What the posts are saying is that you are not as good as you think you are. No one is.

Its your attitutude that is causing the problem here. No one gives a flying **** that you are a better driver than your mates , or even that you may (and I stress may) have better car control than many of the drivers on the road.

The fact is, that nothing broke, therefore it is driver error. No argument.

Even Shuey makes mistakes...LOL.

That error may have been that you hit a slippery patch, had dodgy tyres and or geometry, or any number of weight transfer/speed/wrong reaction issues. All of those are down to you in some way or another, so, sorry, but you ain't that good. There is more to good driving than having just good car control. Which you didn't, incidentally, exibit in this case.

If it was lift off oversteer (from first post) then you deserve no sympathy. You should have been aware of the cars limits.

If it was steady state rear end brakeaway, then applying throttle was probably the wrong thing to do. You should know that, if you are as good as you say. It is not always the case that you recover oversteer in a 4wd car (or any car for that matter) with throttle application. Only sometimes.

My mind is not yet made up about trackdays - road driving has its own skills for one. But it does help you to address when to use power -vs -lift to recover slides from different causes.

Again, I'm not flaming your speed. But your attitude may kill you, or someone else for that matter.

If you were as good as you think you are, it wouldn't have happened.

D



[Edited by Diablo - 11/5/2002 10:56:04 AM]

johnfelstead

Bimey, this one is going on a bit.

I felt my ears burning, I can see why now.

There are plenty of people on this BBS and in the real world that could no doubt run rings round me on track, there are people who would be quicker at the ring too.
The thing is, when I am driving on track or at the ring, I always keep a decent amount of car performance in reserve. I do this even more so on the road because you simply don’t know what is going to happen. If you are driving on the road, right on the limit to the point of fuel surge, or any other minor issue causing you to lose it, you are driving too fast.

The biggest problem is this, especially so when you are young, these cars limits are very high and it takes a lot of driving experience to get a feel for where the real limits lie. When I was growing up and learning to drive properly I was playing in cars like MK2 Escorts on tyres that had very large slip angles. You got to the limits at low speed and you had a big margin to play with, with the tyres breakaway characteristics being quite friendly. What we now have is cars with much higher lateral grip and much smaller tyre slip angles, so when you make a bad judgment, which you will do if you are driving quickly in these cars and are relatively inexperienced, you have much smaller window between being in control and crashing.

Driving ability has nothing to do with whether you drive on track or not, what you do learn on track in relative safety is how your car reacts close to and over the limits. People still stuff it on track trying to find the limits. Some of the most respected and fastest drivers on track do stuff there cars too, the times I have seen this happen it has been down to inexperience of a particular situation and not being able to read what is about to happen. Once you haven’t picked up this, you are unlikely to be able to get yourself out of the ****, no matter how skilled you are. Most on the limit driving is about building up a knowledge base and being experienced. A large amount of safe track driving is reading what is ahead, and making decisions that prevent you from getting into a mess in the first place.

My approach has always been slowly slowly catchy monkey, I do not go out and try and set the world on fire, If someone blasts past me, good for them, I build my knowledge of the track/conditions at a steady pace and then start to pick the speed up, this is ultimately faster because you are keeping some mental capacity in reserve to process the small details. It’s also a lot safer, in 10 years of track driving I have never crashed a car, (touches a bloody big tree). To some that makes me a wuss, to me that is using my brain and driving within my own safety margin. This is still pretty fast, but it is also as safe as I can make it, which is probably why most people are happy to sit with me and don’t want to throw up after a few laps either.

continued after JB got in the way!



[Edited by johnfelstead - 11/5/2002 1:58:41 PM]

Molds

SB I got about half way though reading the whole thread then jumped to the end. Must say I thought it started off very well in terms of you not getting bashed by all the usual "holier than thous"! Got there eventually though.

Pleased to hear there were no casualites and that you got home safely with the car in one piece. Clearly thankful to have a chance to reflect upon the incident.

Personaly I think these kind of posts, despite the invitation to flame the poster, are worth while. Every time I read one it further reminds me of my own mortality, inability and that the Scoob is not invincible. The Scoob is such a fantastic car, and as we all know can flatter an average driver. Oh so easy to get that invincible feeling.

Brave of you to post this SB but definitely worthwhile IMHO. In fact after a rather sketchy moment on a roundabout on Sunday (I am neither reckless or a saint), and reading this I think i will make it a priority to have some driver training rather then spend the money on the next two mods on my wish list.

Cheers

Matt

[Edited by Molds - 11/5/2002 2:19:22 PM]

Diablo

Mate, this says it all. You havepushed it to hard too fast.

Thats why you had your "off"

If you cannot accept that there is no hope for you.

D


[Edited by Diablo - 11/5/2002 2:48:22 PM]

EvilBevel

Kenny,

I thought long & hard about this post....

I am sorry you seem to think comments were meant to be condescending and dogooder.com originated.

Can you at least accept they weren't *meant* to read that way ?

I know this must now feel like "the world against SB", but it's not.

And this I feel strongly about: I wasn't suggesting track days as a means to be "faster" on public roads. I meant it as a *replacement*.

I personally am a very slow driver, which means very slow on track, and sometimes way too fast on the public road.

I do speed.

I speed less since doing trackdays. Mostly from the feeling "oh, you thought you were a driving god when you first had the Impreza eh, then why are you so crap on tracks ?"

Track driving thaught me my abilities were just not where my ego would have liked to put them.

Even today, when I go on track, I take it very easy in the beginning & slowly built up my speed "reading" the conditions. For me the "top moment" on a track day is when I feel I learnt something, made progress, am a bit smoother. The weeks after a trackday, I don't speed, just take part in traffic, concentrate on what could go wrong. Then the "need for speed" hormones roar their heads again, and I either try to calm them or book another trackday.

Will that take out all risks ? Nope. Will I never have an accident on the road ? I might well have one. But I'm trying to manage the risks a bit.

It's a difficult point to get across because young people should be allowed to make mistakes, and I'm an old fart (relatively).

You are lucky to live in a country where there is about a trackday about every weekend. 85 UKP is the price for a few trackdays coming up near you, and people will probably be thrilled to give you some tuition etc...

Anyway, it's looking like I own easytrack or something. I don't. I just thought it *might* help in your case.

Why don't you try it once, and then say f*ck it if you don't like it ?

[Edited by EvilBevel - 11/5/2002 3:25:19 PM]

7 Foot

Double post!?

[Edited by 7 Foot - 11/5/2002 5:13:18 PM]

SiPie

7 foot

Don't worry, I noticed your assistance , just wanted to make my case that I've got a right to post zzzZZZZzzz when a thread is going round and round in circles and it saddens me when someone gets so anorakish about petty little points such as "how many people have replied to the thread"

Was just trying to be funny..... Oh forgot he/she's from Belgium

Did I repeat myself there?

Edited to say I have nothing against Belgium or it's people or any such thing (before EvelBevel quite rightly has a go). Have only visited it the once and I am sure if I went again I'm certain I'd find something interesting

[Edited by SiPie - 11/5/2002 5:35:14 PM]

juan

Exactamundo.
Have some consideration for others if nothing else. My sister and her newborn live in Edinburgh. I'd hate to get a nasty phone call.

Regarding going round corners blind (ie too fast to stop in the distance you can see) you are just asking for trouble if you think this is normal and it shows a complete lack of ability or skill as you're just leaving things in the lap of the gods. Its only normal to joyriders and other irresponsibles In my humble opinion. I've done this in my early motoring years (many of us probably did initially) but not for a long time now. I can still make quick progress when I choose to but I reckon I would nearly always be doing a speed or taking a line that would let me deal with most possible obstacles (obviously someone doing a ton on your side of the road etc. cannot be accounted for). Once you adopt this approach it becomes second nature and not something you consciously think about, it becomes another element of the observation and anticipation you were talking about. It will make you a better and safer driver and your passengers will feel more comfortable.

I'm still fallible though - couple of years ago I went over a blind crest too fast and would have been in trouble if there was a breakdown / sharp corner or some such just over it. Quite scary and only did that because there was a car up my **** (ouch!). A touch of the old immaturity surfaced but I have shown said crest much respect since.

soz to go on. The only reason people are doing so is because you still claim to know your limits and the limits of your car.

take care

[Edited by juan - 11/6/2002 9:49:39 AM]

ice man

Yeah you were going way to fast and lost control of the car. Regardless of dodgy tyres, fuel starvation etc, you lost control at a high speed.

[Edited by ice man - 11/6/2002 10:02:32 AM]

SiPie

Juan
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"Finally, so what if you drive sedately most of the time. Do you think most of us don't?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------

What's the weather like on your planet today ?


[Edited by SiPie - 11/6/2002 11:13:59 AM]

LG John

Having discussed this at length with my nearest and dearest I had decided not to post it on scoobynet given that it would only lead to the association of Saxo Boy = fast = dangerous and I didn’t want that.

However, I’ve made a discovery this morning which I feel should be shared for the greater good even if it leaves me open to a roasting from the do-gooders.

What happened you ask? Basically:

I was out on site last Wednesday and took the opportunity to have some fun and give the car a bit of a thrashing. All was going swimmingly and I was really getting to grips with my heel and toe, despite the work shoes . I finally turned onto the road from Aberlady to Gullane, which is a very unique road in that it has very long sweeping corners, good predictable tarmac and each lane is very wide. In fact, it’s the most track like public road I’ve ever driven and has always been a favourite. For once it seemed particularly dead so I seized the chance to really give it some. I fired hard round a left-hander with the car drifting nicely across the road (still in my ample lane). I then floored it down the next short straight and then down into 3rd (give you an idea of the speed) for the long sweeping right-hander. Then it went all horribly wrong….

The backend suddenly broke free and the car started to drift sideways. What happened next was a bit of a blur but I do remember that about the time the car had come round by 110 degrees I knew it was unrecoverable and I was crashing I’d already dialled in full opposite lock so all I could do was hit the brakes and hope to scrub a little speed. This obviously turned the car more and in the end I had spun (at high speed) 270+ degrees, had crossed from my lane through the other lane and into a grass verge on the other side of the road. Amazingly I managed to hit nothing and there were no other road users around (hence why I was pushing it that little harder). I drove off and couldn’t help but think about he post I put in the thread about the guy that rolled his car into the field…’about the times we have a close one and wonder how we got away with it!!’ To this day I’m grateful to be alive and that my actions didn’t harm other people, my car or me.

This happened almost a week ago and it still occupies my thoughts, I’ve been trying so hard to figure out what went wrong and initial analysis revealed that my rear tyres were actually bald on the inside edges Therefore, the cause of the accident as far as I was concerned was poor maintenance of the car (i.e. not checking the rears) and driver error (we all make mistakes) However, I was thinking about it again this morning and I couldn’t figure out how the hell I didn’t get back on the power when I felt the backend let go. Note the login name…. I’m born and bread on a very tail happy car and its second nature to me to mash the throttle when the rear go’s!!! Then it hit me…I was corning a long hard right turn at high speeds…fuel starvation.

Got into work this morning and checked what I’d noted down my mileage at prior to going on site…. 220 miles For me, this means the red light would be on or very close to on. I’ve suffered fuel starvation before and it usual occurs after swinging round a little roundabout and nailing it out the other side where shortly after you eat steering wheel. The problem with this corner is that I would have been full throttle (and boost @ 1.25 bar) the whole way through it with massive lateral forces. In short, at just the time I needed power I wouldn’t have had it and I’m fairly sure that’s why I didn’t recover it Prior to this incident I’d already concluded that the fuel starvation the Scooby can suffer from is a horrific design fault but now it just seems plain madness!!!

Lets just get one things clear though, what happened was still my fault. I should have checked my tyres or I should have driven within the limits of the tyres I had. I more than likely did do something wrong during the blurry part of what happened but having experienced fuel starvation before I’m fairly confident that I’d be pressing the throttle for power at right about the engine wouldn’t have any go-go juice. As I said to AJ when I discussed it with her I seem to remember correcting it briefly and then losing it big style…this again suggests the engine lost power

Very happy to be alive and that nobody else was involved but please, please, please check your fuel levels before pushing it hard on these sorts of sweeping roads – In my case it could have easily led to deaths had others been coming the other way.

BTW 4 new Toyos getting fitted on Thursday

Just like to stress again that I DO NOT blame fuel starvation but I do believe it was a contributing factor to me losing full control of the car.

ProperCharlie

Interesting post, Saxo. Despite your repentance for being a menance to society and potentially to innocent wildlife as well, I still think you're going to get a roasting here.

Good Luck.

Charlie.(It was definitely the fuel starvation wot dun it, guv )

scooby nutter

That sounded like a close call!!!

next time you may not be so lucky

take it easy(now and again)


SN

RB5320

I hope you went straight to the nearest shop and bought a lottery ticket. you are seriously lucky to be in 1 piece.

Barnaby

Glad you are alright and the car is intact!

When I did something similar many years ago I found the only telegraph pole in half a mile to hit

One thing I would say though, if you are driving on the limit then anything that mechanically goes wrong in a car has got a really good chance of causing a crash. So there is a lot to be said for spending the minimum amount of time on the limit on the open road. Track of course is a different matter

sKunk

Did your pants make it through the accident?

LG John

Seriously considered this btw!!! I don't think the words above describe how close I was to it being a real bad un'!! At one point I was in a slide facing the wrong way on the wrong side of the road at about 50mph

Even wearing new boots it'll take me a while to build my confidence back up.

P.S. No animals were harmed in the making of the above crash

LG John

Nope, they were a right-off believe me