pslewis

I am old enough to remember the Tories in power ....... complete and utter corrupted shambles (Early Thatcher years excepted)

So whats with all this USA, Bush, Blair bashing??? I bet those who are talking out their 4rses couldnt even be bothered to vote!!

These men are at this moment considering the best way we can all talk in freedom and peace - so SHUT the moaning!!!! They can do things in one day that would make your knees turn to jelly - they are true men, NOT the pathetic little pip squeaks taking cheap pots at them on here!!

Stand up and be counted or crawl back under your stone

Pete

Luke

Please can I be number 86.

pslewis

86??? is that the 43rd stone on the left??

Pete

Luke

So short in fact that only a few minutes ago YOU posted a reply stating that Tony "Blur" had done nothing......Sice labour got into Power. And you call him a man??

What we need is a 55 year old MagieThatcher back in power.Now she had *****

Neil Smalley

Let's hope their way of ensuring it actually works.

Bombing a population into submission has never worked, it only strengthens resolve.

Apart from the desire to satisfy bloodlust nobody's yet to tell me why this would'nt work.

Ok Mr Taliban. We will give you $5bn in aid, to rebuild your country for Bin Laden. This goes up to $20Bn for the whole lot of them.

You then use the money to build hospitals, roads, dig wells, schools etc etc.

I can see it now, in a year or so's time.
"What did the Americans do mummy?"
"They built the school where you go to", rather than "They killed your daddy"

You have to win the hearts and minds of the people, bombing people will only swell the terrorist army.

Bin Laden has kids the from the age of 8 fighting for him. Are we going to kill them too? What if the terrorists go to ground in villages, like the vietcong did? Are we going to wipe out the village too?

Did'nt think so.

Why is it that most of the countries we occupied as part of the british empire don't go around blowing us up? It's because we had the sense to help them out, after we handed over control to them.

I just hope the people in charge realise this and learn from history.

Bush is right, this is a new kind of war, but one that needs to be fought in the schoolroom not the war room.

ptholt

I have to say i don't envy either men at the moment, deciding how to retaliate after this weeks events could change the face of this planet - or just blow it clean off.

pslewis

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neil Smalley:
[B]Let's hope their way of ensuring it actually works.

------------------------------------------

THATS why they are there and you are not

------------------------------------------

Bombing a population into submission has never worked, it only strengthens resolve.

--------------------------------------------

Even if NOTHING is left standing?

--------------------------------------------

Apart from the desire to satisfy bloodlust nobody's yet to tell me why this would'nt work.

Ok Mr Taliban. We will give you $5bn in aid, to rebuild your country for Bin Laden. This goes up to $20Bn for the whole lot of them.

You then use the money to build hospitals, roads, dig wells, schools etc etc.

--------------------------------------------

I take it the Etc. Ect. is:- Build bigger bombs than us then wipe out OUR families??

--------------------------------------------

I can see it now, in a year or so's time.
"What did the Americans do mummy?"
"They built the school where you go to", rather than "They killed your daddy"

--------------------------------------------

OR to the American kid who has just lost their fireman father, "Some great men decided enough was enough and had the ***** to fight, DESPITE a small group of namby-pambies calling to send them presents" If they had their way your daddy would have died in vain - they took our money and built the bomb that killed your mummy too!!!

---------------------------------------------

You have to win the hearts and minds of the people, bombing people will only swell the terrorist army.

Bin Laden has kids the from the age of 8 fighting for him. Are we going to kill them too? What if the terrorists go to ground in villages, like the vietcong did? Are we going to wipe out the village too?

---------------------------------------------

That kid of 8 would have NO hesitation in killing you, your family and destroying all you hold dear - would I kill him??? damn right I would!!

---------------------------------------------

Did'nt think so.

Why is it that most of the countries we occupied as part of the british empire don't go around blowing us up? It's because we had the sense to help them out, after we handed over control to them.

I just hope the people in charge realise this and learn from history.

---------------------------------------------

Had we wiped out the terrorists last year 5,000 people would NOT be dead!!!! Lets hope they do not stop until the fight is finished

---------------------------------------------

Pete

MichelleWRX1994

I back up Neil's comments.

A raid and bombing will be the start of a never ending spiral

ChrisB

Ask the Soviets how successful they were in Afghanistan. Fighting a guerrilla army is not an easy task, even for a modern well equipped army.

How can you wipe out an unknown quantity?

pslewis

So Michelle, just what would you have us do?

Pete

pslewis

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ChrisB:
<B>Ask the Soviets how successful they were in Afghanistan. Fighting a guerrilla army is not an easy task, even for a modern well equipped army.

How can you wipe out an unknown quantity?[/quote]


There was an unknown quantity in Hiroshima and Nagasaki - but we ended the war

Pete

David Lock

I agree very much with Neil and others who question the validity of a scorched earth policy in Afghanistan or anywhere else come to that if, indeed, that is what is being seriously planned. Sure try and take out Bin Laden and his cronies IF they they were responsible (and there may be a case anyway in view of his past record). BUT how on earth could a justification be made to wipe out innocents in Afghanistan just because of the existence of a Taliban government that they didn't elect and is already causing them so much grief and a scenario where aid workers daren't stay and try and help close to 5 million people on the verge of starvation.
Sure I'd like all terrorists wiped out but be realistic it just ain't going to happen. If anything it would just make things worse and give some oddball state even more of an incentive to nuke or Anthrax NY, London or wherever. Just as an example how many terrorists have been responsible for problems in Northern Ireland perhaps a 100 or so hardcore and we STILL can't sort that out; a sad irony being that the IRA have been seen as fighting a just cause by many in the USA. I'm not having a go at the USA as that would be innapropriate right now but it does demonstrate just how complex it all is and N Ireland problems pale into insignificance in world terrorist terms.
I agree with all the comments about education being of fundemental importance. It's not going to solve everything but so much terrorism is born out of abject poverty and corruption which breeds hatred. If somehow the West could be more engaged in these aspects surely this could only help.
I don't consider myself a pathetic little pipsqueak taking cheap pots at Blair, Bush etc as the thread starts but rather as someone who is still trying to get my head around these horrors and as someone who has travelled quite widely and has a huge respect for the dignity and kindness of ordinary human beings often living in conditions that we can hardly imagine. DL

scud8

iTrader: (1)

I would probably support the missile/carpet bombing approach if I thought this had more than a zero chance of affecting with any responsibility for the WTC attacks, however indirect. History shows those in power always survive these blunt attacks, and it is the innocent that suffer.

Does anyone here seriously think they would be any safer in the long-term if millions of innocent Afghan die and Bin Laden and the Taliban leadership who have been alleged sheltering him escape any form of justice?

I'm not arguing for inaction - just action directed against those responsible.

johnfelstead

I have been spending a lot of time over on the US BBS listening to what they have to say and keeping them informed of what is happening world wide because they are being starved of information.

What i am picking up most is the fact they are ill equiped to understand this, why it happened. They are incredibly insular in the reporting they are getting and this has come as a huge shock to them.

I am seeing over and over again the question. Why do they hate us so much?

I posted this on that site following discusions on why the US is attacked and the knowledge they had of the threat. The second link i post is worth a read in particular.

have a read of this speech Delivered By Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, Munich, Germany, Saturday, February 3, 2001. Its on the pentagon web site.

Hunk

Have to agree with Neil. For 100% There is no such possibility as to 'wipe out terrorists'. You can drop the biggest bombs and kill Laden and half the country but it will fuel the hatred even more and thats what makes new terrorists. A spiral of violence without an end. (well, it could all end...)

BarryK

OK Pete is right on the appeasement front, look where that got us last time.

But then after the war, the US used aid to make sure that so far as I know, we don't have loads of German and Japanese people doing what many of you seem to regard as inevitable and becoming terorists.

Unless you include sunbed occupation.

Neil Smalley

I'm not suggesting appeasement. I'd like the people who did this bought to justice the same as everyone else.

Aid can come in many forms. Why not have US or UK people build the schools etc for them? We pay our own people to rebuild their country, therefore we get the money, they get the help.

There are 3 good articles in today's independant.

ptholt

If memory serves me correctly i don't think many countries have successgully invaded afghsnistan and successfully stayed there.

Ourselves included at two attemps.

Personally i prefer the missiles and carpet bombing onto terrorist only targets approach, not a land campaign.

But then, the missiles etc have been tried before and failed.

ChrisB

Wiping out two cities in Afghan isn't going to affect the fighters roaming the mountains.

You could spend decades chasing them around the hills.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

SAS 2nd motto after "Who Dares Wins"

"Hearts And Minds"

That is part of their training - should work for the rest of us too.

pslewis

Well, I am off to sleep in the peace that my forefathers fought and died for ... I will leave you with one quote:-

Recompense injury with justice, and recompense kindness with kindness.
Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC), The Confucian Analects

I can imagine this BBS in 1939 - "oh, its ok, let Hitler have Poland - lets send some money for their schools and to build those excellent lice cleaning facilities for the jews" Then they will think us kind and gentle and will not hurt us .............

WHAT COMPLETE BOLLOCKS!!!!!

Pete

ptholt

Some of the elements of this remind me of stories around ww1 + 2.

Does anyone remember the phrase 'we will be finished by christmas'. This was the attitude/phrase used by those brave souls who were first in the queues at the recruiting offices joining up.

'we'll be finished by christmas,
back home by the fire, but they perished in the distance, between the bombs and wire'.

ChrisB

Oh, I'm 110% for kicking somebodies *** for this, but a drawn out ground war is hard battle to win against guerrillas.

ChrisB.

[This message has been edited by ChrisB (edited 17 September 2001).]

ptholt

I agree with chrisb, someone should be made to pay, its just the way its going to be done that worries me, ground campaign sounds and has proved every time in history, very costly in lives on both sides.

Also does killing bin laden turn him into a martyr for the anti usa/west world cause?

If i were a taliban leader right now, i'd have sent a envoy to china + russia saying, please help us fight nato, do you really want them in our country so close to yourselves and installing there own puppet government and installing troops so close to your homeland, then the fun really begins if either of those two join in.

I'm not saying no retaliation, i'm saying VERY careful retaliation to minimise lives and a larger global conflict, rather than just saying lets get stuck in.

[This message has been edited by ptholt (edited 17 September 2001).]

teknopete

For 1nce i`m gonna agree with Pete

An eye for an eye works for me. I`ll tell u wot though lets be fair, order the countries harbouring these worthless cowardly slime that call themselves "soldiers " to give them up within say 2 days. Then advise them that non compliance will result in a scorched earth policy being carried out. That way they are given a chance to do the right thing IMHO.

Can`t say fairer than that
BTW Pete is correct that little 8 year old would kill u sooner than look @ u .

(flamesuit on before the handbaggin starts from the namby pamby corner)

Pete

Blow Dog

Pslewis,

I understand you are quite emotive about this, and I am sure there are millions out there who feel the same way as you do. Revenge is, I think, a natural human reaction. Unfortunately, so is destroying each other

But I also agree a hell of a lot with what Neil is saying too.

It frightens me to think we may become pawns in a game fought by powermongers with itchy trigger fingers.

Cem

skipjack

this isn't really getting us anywhere. we don't yet know who was responsible and whoever was, isn't going to hold their hands up and come clean.

nobody wants the situation to be made worse but we all want some payback (my brother's best friend worked at cantor-fitzgerald on the 105th floor - he is on the missing list. you may have seen his picture in both the sunday telegraph and sunday times yesterday).

bush is surrounded by experienced political and military campaigners - notably cheney, powell - plus his father. whatever his own shortcomings are, his advisors are experienced enough to handle this in a mature fashion. they know that that a coalition of support is vital. the last thing they will do is bomb afghanistan flat, if indeed they are involved: if they have blood on their hands, we are more likely to see the taleban ruling council assassinated, resulting in the toppling of the regime. plus the destruction of all known training areas - which are in umpopulated areas rather than in kabul.

i believe we are going to see nights of the long knives for whoever did this - special forces, hit squads, assassination, demolition, economic warfare. sustained surgical covert operations. not land invasions, use of tactical nuclear weapons or any outmoded crap like that.

all the stuff that the SAS, Delta Force, GSG-9 and the like specialise in.

if there was going to be a knee-jerk reaction, it would have come already. this one's being planned at a diplomatic, military and economic level and in a way that will carry world support forward.

the last thing i'll say is this: the terrorists, whoever they may be, signed their own death warrants last tuesday in a monumental f***-up of judgement. they have given our elected officials the justification and moral/political will to stamp out this disease. the terrorists hoped to stir up a hornet's nest of wild revenge and they've patently failed.

fundamentalist terrorism will not survive in the long term. it will become too expensive a creed for any country to support and an instant death sentence for anyone actively pursuing it.

long overdue IMHO.

Pete Croney

This all seems a bit of a pointless argument, cos it just ain't gonna happen like that.

There will be no scorched earth or genocide, as this would inflame the situation.

What will happen is that the instigators of these attrocities will be introduced to their god, in the still of the night.

The deed(s) will be done by Special Forces, not B-52's.

It will probably be our SAS as they are recognised as the only fighting force with enough experience to work in such conditions.

Whilst highly trained, the US Special Forces lack the experience of operating covertly in arabic speaking countries and they carry a burdensome chain of command.

It was Margaret Thatcher that realised these troops are most brutally effective when given a task and left to do it, answering to Hereford, with intelligence direct from GCHQ. This is much to the annoyance of the military's top brass, who prefer traditional command structures.

I would bet the SAS are already in Afganistan, or wherever their prey now is, shadowing their target and waiting for the political green light.

After this, we will see tv pictures of a smallish land force capturing what is left of the training camps and weapons stores.

Pete Croney

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by skipjack:
<B>

the last thing i'll say is this: the terrorists, whoever they may be, signed their own death warrants last tuesday in a monumental f***-up of judgement. they have given our elected officials the justification and moral/political will to stamp out this disease. the terrorists hoped to stir up a hornet's nest of wild revenge and they've patently failed.

fundamentalist terrorism will not survive in the long term. it will become too expensive a creed for any country to support and an instant death sentence for anyone actively pursuing it.

long overdue IMHO.

[/quote]

We must have been typing at the same time. I couldn't agree more with your words above.

<B>And that's why no one has owned up to this.</B> These people are all too keen to send their followers off to be "martyred", but do not seem so ready for it themselves.

Well its coming now, whether they are ready or not.

Basil

Odd, Neil - you seem to be unaware of who one the biggest suppliers of aid to Afganistan is - the US. We sent in the region of 400 million dollars their way last year. And what did we get? 5000 people DEAD and damages that will run well over 20 BILLION dollars. Looks like you idea has already been proven wrong. So much for touchy feely liberalism, eh? Here's an idea - the next time the IRA blows something up, why don't you make a donation to the Sinn Fein? Don't want to? Odd, because that's what you're asking us to do.

Mr Croney - spot on, and well said. This is indeed the best of course action.

Basil