Taff

Hello everyone!

I'm just about to take delivery of my first ever Subaru (5 dr Turbo) I've test driven one but there's only so much you can do on a test drive. My concern is that a number of times on Top Gear they have commented that the Impreza suffers from too much understeer? Is this the case? Also, as I'm getting a 5 door, does anyone know if the handling is markedly different from the four door?

Any comments gratefully received

alistair

Yes the Impreza understeers. However, if you get the geometry sorted than you can get rid of most of it.

Have you read the FAQ on

James Adlington

I never really noticed when I first got my Scooby (having always driven FWD cars anyway), but having changed to the prodrive geometry settings I've noticed the front end gripping much better, and also how much FWD cars do understeer!

Too much understeer - well I guess its down to what your used to & what your doing, but I don't think its too bad, even with the standard geometry.

ozzy

Hi Taff,

I'm another how loves his Scooby to death, but the understeer is a real pain. I have changed my driving style a bit which has certainly helped.

If you dive up the inside of a mini roundabout and just try and yank the car around the corner, the front end will wipe out big time. If you take a more wider a nd balanced approach to corners there's loads more grip.

Haven't tried the Prodrive settings so I'm yet to be convinced.

Funny that even the Prodrive modified cars (P1, RB5) also understeer badly - even the 22B UK !

It's true, AWD or (4WD) cars don't understeer as badly as FWD cars, but they can improve it. Having driven an Evo IV, V and VI, the Scooby comes second best with front-end grip.

Hopefully, if we complain enough Subaru will sit-up and listen IMHO

Don't worry though it can be fixed, but you'll have to part with more cash I'm afraid.

Stefan

BHORT

O.K.
so you get your geometry changed so get less understeer and you take the tight inside line around a roundabout with a double exit straight on. With understeer the front end struggles for grip and starts to wash away, any car in the outside lane watch out! what will happen with more neutral handling? Will the car just pull round i.e. is there more grip? there then comes a time when near the limit I presume you will get oversteer rather than understeer, is that more satisfying or will i just hit the car in the outside lane with my boot rather than bonnet. I think that it is time for me to try the prodrive settings and try this more neutral feel.

R19KET

Taff,

Firstly, the 5 door is said to have as good, if not better handling than the 2/4 door, so don't worry about that.

The Subaru seems to have notoriously diverse geometry setting on delivery, so insist they are checked on the pdi.

You may well find that the car understeers, when you get used to it, and start to push. Increasing the front -camber will get rid of most of it.

Mark.

Nick E

Taff,

Good luck and I hope you enjoy your new car. I have the RB5 which has the same settings as the standard but 17 inch wheels. I have had no problem with understeer, the only time when things got out of hand was when I came into a roundabout to fast in the wet in third instead of changing down to second. I was feeling to lazy.

Top Gear have never liked the Impreza. Its not an BMW!

Take a wet weather handling course if you can and learn how the car handles. When you get it right its BIG fun.

chrisp

Its to what degree you wish to push the car. Understeer hasnt really been a problem for me personally. What did surprise me was the going around a roundabout was the grip you get when the wheels are turned and the power goes down on exit. You seemed to get sucked of the roundabout in the direction you want to go. Like its been say you can play around with the settings to virtually get rid of understeer.

Personnaly I would try it for a few miles before playing with anything. It took me a while to get use to the engine never mind the handling. Still learning after a year .

cheers

chrisp

DJB

I find that understeer is only really a problem if you go into a corner or roundabout half comitted ie. on a trailing throttle or in the wrong gear.

I've found that if you attack a corner with the turbo spinning and feed in the power progessively, understeer is rarely a problem.

I think tyres (pressures and type) may have a lot to do with it.

D.

^Gazzer^

I have a new 5 door, and there is nothing wrong with the handling. Like all performance cars, when people moan about the handling it usually means they are not driving the car well. Getting some decent tuition can gain you 20-30 mph round country lanes. I have recently been instructed by one of the countries top police persuit drivers, who showed me the right technique. It made me realise just how crap a driver I was ! I can now objectively criticise all my mates who are convinced they are good drivers, they are all crap as well ! I am still crap, but I am improving gradually.

Be careful when having the camber adjusted. You may find that your tyres wear out quicker during streight line driving.

Subarussian

Gazzer,
What driving course did you go on to learn these skills? Can you give me the name and contact details please?
Many thanks,
Subarussian

SteveB

iTrader: (1)

Top gear recently rated a Z3 as a better handling car than a Evo VI !!
When was the last time you saw Tiffany drive a car on anything other than an airfield ?
Yes the Scoobs does understeer, personnally i've not had any problems with this. Use the "slow in, fast out" approach. If you do get understeer, back off and you'll get some oversteer(if you have enough pace)which will help to tighten your line. I've recently fitted Leda and this is much better IMHO than any ECU mods, the car is now much better handling.

Steve.

RobJenks

The anti-lift kit eliminates understeer and if plenty of power is applied out of corners oversteer can be induced.
Don't even think about living with the standard set up-GET THE KIT!!

Sam Elassar

hi Taff
the car understeers like there is no tomorrow !!. as someone mentioned it above you will notice when you get used to the car and start playing. however this is not a problem on the public roads on matter what type. as a matter of fact the car will give so much confidence about your driving so injoy it. the problem comes when you take the car on the track. i have just done a trackday yesterday (konckhill) and trust me the hairpin was the most difficult part of the track. doing around 30mph with a FULL RIGHT LOCK and i am still going in a straight line ( a bit frustrating espicially when the EVO VI behind you can only gain on you in the straight bits).
i have just got the alk but have not fitted it yet so i hope this makes things more interesting. i know of a car with full avo susp and pushes all around and it seem to be handling alot more neutral


sam MY99 PRODRIVE SETTING,

James Adlington

I also got to play with the Knockhill hairpin yesterday
Really showed the benefits of the slow in, fast out approach - get it right & you get round no problem & launch up the straight (eat the Caterhams & Elises for breakfast ), get on the power too early & you get terminal understeer

Must admit I didn't try it with the Evo up my boot though!

Tony Hall

Sorry all you speed kings, all I can say is that if you ever get to the point of worrying about understeer or oversteer on the Subaru when driving on a public road, then you are driving too damn fast! Anyone who belongs to SIDC should be setting an example, not showing off, no matter how tempting..........I have the RB5 and have found it quick enough to get round almost anything else without fuss and no hint of under or oversteer. Slow in, fast out is the motto, correct gear and you've got it in one, no sliding or wagging, just smooth. All this talk of 'yanking' etc is just asking for trouble - get on the brakes early, get your speed and momentum off and go round on a neutral throttle until the bend/corner starts to unwind, then you can use as much power as you like (camber/ice etc permitting).

Wreckleford

Not too much fun cornering that way though.

MorayMackenzie

Tony,

Do you ever exceed 10mph when drivig around a corner in wet conditions? I hope not, because there is always the chance of hitting a patch of diesel and understeering/skidding on it. Spilt diesel: You cannot see it and it gives you about the same traction as wet ice.

Moray
(Playing devils advocate )

PaulL

Never had too much trouble with understeer in my "un-prodrived" MY99. The only time I notice it is on tight roundabouts in the wet... at which point I just turn the wheel a bit more and press the loud pedal... just end up then with a nice contollable 4-wheel drift
Personally I quite like the fact that the car isn't "tail-happy". I would always be worrying about the back snapping out on a left-hand bend with on-coming traffic

Paul L

[This message has been edited by PaulL (edited 14-02-2000).]

Neil F

I have 1 degree negative camber on my STi4.
The only time I noticed understeer is when nailing it round a roundabout in the wet.
You've got to remember that these cars are so capable that you often don't appreciate how fast you are really going!
Climb back into any any standard hack and it will feel like you are in reverse.
The real plus is that the handling is predicatable and correctable.
A recent mag (can't remember which one) had an RB5 on the track and moaned because it was absolutely unstickable however much they abused it through the bends!
No fun according to the tester!!! (no pleasing some people).
As Nick says, Top Gear (and Tiffany in particular) just don't like Impreza's.
If it 'aint a Porsche or a BMW (class blah blah.....build quality blah blah......timeless design blah blah..... YAWN!) then it don't get a mention.
You should see CAR magazine's head to head of the EvoVI Extreme and the Porsche 911 Turbo; Evo is ultimate driving experience, massive grin factor, awesome etc, but the Porsche wins because when you start it up, you know your sitting in a Porsche....WHAT?

Rant over.

Neil.

GranTurismo

Hello,

Last week I got my tracking/camber sorted on a laser rig. I went from normal to Prodrive/FAQ settings and the report indicated that the old settings were way off. I also went from worn Yokohama A520's to new Bridgstone SO2 PPs. (both 16in)

The car is TRANSFORMED and understeer is gone.

Sam Elassar

hi James
which car were you driving. I had the silver 99 with loud blitz exhaust. I actually know how to take the hairpin however I was giving it as an example as it is the most obvious and noticeable place to check understeer.
the thing is, I can't believe the discussion that we are having here among impreza drivers !!!.anyone that drives an impreza should know that it understeers. ( that means when you are taking a roundabout too fast the front end goes straight and the only way to correct it is to left off or if you are confident enough you can try to gently brake to bring about oversteer) . anyone who even argues this, has never driven the impreza properly and probably only bought it because someone told him that it is a good car or something of that sort. The impreza has a great 4 wheel drive system which gives good traction and grip but it needs some patients, work, time and money to get them to handle neutrally. that’s why it is not doing very well in Japan, against for example the EVO6 which has nearly the same power out put and a 100kg weight handy cap.

Taff

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sam Elassar:
<B>hi James
which car were you driving. I had the silver 99 with loud blitz exhaust. I actually know how to take the hairpin however I was giving it as an example as it is the most obvious and noticeable place to check understeer.
the thing is, I can't believe the discussion that we are having here among impreza drivers !!!.anyone that drives an impreza should know that it understeers. ( that means when you are taking a roundabout too fast the front end goes straight and the only way to correct it is to left off or if you are confident enough you can try to gently brake to bring about oversteer) . anyone who even argues this, has never driven the impreza properly and probably only bought it because someone told him that it is a good car or something of that sort. The impreza has a great 4 wheel drive system which gives good traction and grip but it needs some patients, work, time and money to get them to handle neutrally. that’s why it is not doing very well in Japan, against for example the EVO6 which has nearly the same power out put and a 100kg weight handy cap.[/quote]

Well, what a talkative lot you are! As far as I can see, the long and the short of it is that, compared to my Clio 16V, which I'm part x'ing ,the Subaru will have a lot less understeer in normal fast road driving form.....and, if I want to take it on the track then I would benefit a lot from getting the settings sorted.

Neil F

Sam.

I disagree. You either need to get your geometry sorted or adjust your driving style.
You can make any car understeer if you want but revise your approach to corners and point of power application and you will eliminate it.
Remember also that most road cars have a 'safe' understeer tendancy built in but as I said, revised geometry can eliminate this.
At the end of the day, the Impreza has a legendary reputation for grip and handling.
I find it embarrassing that Tiffany says that he can't take the car seriously.

Gethin

Opinions, that's all it is. The only way to find out is go and try for yourself. I did not buy my Impreza because of some poncy magazine report (who change their minds every week and produce different stats on the same cars), I bought it because I took my friends UK car for a drive and was smitten.

Absolutely superb stuff.

So I bought one. As far as I am concerned, it's the safest performance car I have driven. IMHO of course!

Gethin.
MY97 WRX

R19KET

Sam,

I assume that when you say braking, you mean "left foot braking". The scoob is very prone to lift off oversteer, and if you just lift off the throttle (panic reaction) the back will come round VERY fast. I find feathering the throttle works very well.

As others have said, if you're in the correct gear, and revs, accelerating will also bring the car around, by inducing oversteer.

Driving techniques aside, getting the geometry sorted out, should be the starting point. Even these vary depending on your style of driving, and the best settings, are the ones that the driver is most confident with, not what someone else thinks is best.

People also seem to forget, that setting are a compromise between wet, and dry conditions. My car is set up with a dry, track bias, and is pretty twitchy in the wet. My choice. Others want the opposite.

Mark.

Sam Elassar

Neil and mark
I completely agree with you however it is on the limit, try to go as fast as you could handling that I was referring to. Other wise you would not have changed you geo sittings mark .
gethin
absolutely it is the best car I have ever owned

KevinW

Dear all,

Lots of useful comments here. I have owned my `94 WRX since May `99 I too have experienced understeer I guess everyones pecerption of speed differs. I thought I was flying around Oulton park last July but still was overtaken by an EVO 5, Carrera 4, Supra and a Skyline All of these cars attacked tighter bends quicker than me. Are they really much faster cars or more confident drivers? I do think the suspension setup makes a big difference though, not only to the handling but also to your confidence. I owned a Corolla GTi-16 before Scooby and until I fitted a full suspension kit and 16" wheels with Michelins the handling was ordinary. Once the new kit and wheels were fitted the car was outstanding . I'd definately corner it faster than the Impreza It is rumoured that Jap spec motors have softer suspension and thus handle less well than UK cars (is this correct?) Having been hurled around a roundabout in a Turbo 2000 and having tried the same roundabout in my car I would have to concede that my car appeared to handle with much less composure I have also heard that your geometry is more than likely going to be incorrect on imports (don't know how true). I personally intend to fit a Leda 'B' suspension kit asap and have my geometry checked / realigned Our differing driving styles make it difficult to say who is right and who is wrong about the cars handling characteristics. Remember your own capabilites as a driver when judging the car. I think Imprezas are the best thing since sliced bread, but as with anything else there is room for improvement which is what I fully intend to do

Happy motoring

Kevin
Nottingham


[This message has been edited by KevinW (edited 15-02-2000).]