wacky.banana

Reading this months Jap Performance magazine I see a Skyline making 714bhp & 478lb ft. I assume that the conversion is reasonably bullet proof. Mit Evo's in general carry over 300bhp and are generally accepted as being "quicker" than a scoob.

In last months mag (IIRC)a Scooby owner had spent more than £15K on his car and ended up with 70bhp more than he started with (can't remember what the torque figure was) for his trouble!. IIRC there's a bloke in either Australia or the states that has been working quite hard to get 400bhp out of his Scooby and isn't there yet (don't know if he ever will either).

My question is this; what makes it so relatively easy to get high outputs from Mits & Skylines but not necessarily from Scoobs? Has this got anything to do with the basic design of the engines (Scoob = opposing flat four, Skyline & Mits = straight 4/6 configuration)? I would think not, based on my recollection that Porche, for example, have done quite well out of boxer engines in the past.

Yes I know that the Skyline, Mitsi, et al are probably running heavily revised ECU's, bigger injectors, stronger pistons and conrods, have gasflowed heads, etc etc. However on a level playing field of a "sod the cost, just build it" our Scoobs seem to be coming second best in the power/torque "ease of achievability" stakes.

If you consider the impending PPP for the STi7, and the (alleged) gains to be had for the price, I just wonder where that fits into the food chain of higher power/torque ouput delivery. Should we be swooning at these (modest) gains or be asking some very searching questions as to why things are as they are in the Scooby world?

Comments welcome please. Not looking for an engineering thesis, just some easy to understand chat on why things are as they are and how we overcome the challenges (whatever they are/ may be).

Starting point for responses is not the "it only has 265bhp to get through emisssions"; we all know that. I am looking beyond that point, from a no holds barred/money no object perspective.

Over to you, fellow scooby nutters...

WB

Trout...

It is possible to spend over £15k on modding your car and get ripped off and get crap power increase.

It is possible to spend a half of that and get very serious power indeed - certainly over 400bhp.

There are Scoobs around with 500bhp - AT THE WHEELS - to be fair they are nitrous drag cars - but in Oz and USA there are cars that are on the street with over 500bhp - on par with expense for Skylines and Evos - probably about the same.

The expertise will slowly but surely make it to these shores.

Trout

PS Performance mods of around £4,000 gave me 346bhp at PE - and there is more to come

steve McCulloch

Misubishi's - it isnt that easy to get over 400bhp and you have to spend shed loads just like you would on a Scoob!

It is possible to get 400bhp from a 2 litre, with the internal upgrades and the right other bits and pieces. You may see a few more of them around in a few months time!

You could also opt for the stroker kit on the Scooby or 2.5 litre conversions now doing the rounds...

I personally would not bother with the impracticality of the Evo - what ever made them have a 48 litre fuel tank! (the Scooby is 62 litres)

As for the Skyline - note that lbs figure - good but nothing special. Oh and the Skyline weighs about 1670kg versus the sti5/older Scoob versions at about 1275kg - so you need more power to get to the power to weight comparative

The skyline is a 2.6 litre twin turbo so your starting off on a better foot - they cost a lot more from new as well.......

Trout...

I have seen that Skyline - to be fair - it is fooking quick (note the practising of the Yorkshire accent!)

Trout

wacky.banana

Trout,

I take your point re the £15K & rip off. This takes me back to an earlier thread of mine re trying to find ways of pinning down tuners to prove that what they say on the tin is what you will get!

What have you had done to your car then? Email me offline if its easier.

Edited to get my spelling right...

[Edited by wacky.banana - 8/23/2002 10:51:54 PM]

Trout...

MD254 Turbo (still for sale )
Link
MRT Top Mount - second hand
Uprated Injectors
Induction Kit
Water Injection (did not increase power per se - increased protection and maintains power on track)

All mods declared so no secrets

All the work, except the very initial Link mapping three years ago to get me going has been done by myself - a tuner I could trust - although I learnt from scratch on the way

Trout

PS Am now expecting a conservative 360bhp with an additional £2,500 spend

steve McCulloch

I reckon you would be looking at a fair bit to get over the magical 400 bhp!.....

say:

Replacement ECU, mapping and gauges 1500
Upgrade Turbo capable of say 2 bar 1800 say
Bigger injectors 650
Decent exhaust 600 brand new
Air filter 200 say
Ported headers 100 say
Uprated Clutch, AP 400
Uprated fuel pump 150
Front mounted intercooler 1200
Uprated Pistons 750
Uprated Conrods 900
Uprated bearings and other gubbings 1000
Internal upgrade labour charges 1500 say
Other, say water injection? 1000 say
Add in additional fitting and mapping costs say 1000

If you run the car at about 1.6 – 1.8 bar you will get about 400 bhp, don’t think an Organic AP clutch, the std gearbox and the rear diff would last long though if you did a few fast starts!


About 12850 all in…………………..


Of course if you got some of the bits second hand..... it would be a bit cheaper....

Easy really....

Oh... and you'll need to give up your life for a while... much better to buy the car with it already done.....






[Edited by steve McCulloch - 8/23/2002 11:00:05 PM]

Trout...

Steve,

agree if you are doing it from scratch - starting from where I am now £5,000-£7,000 for new short engine, plus PAR clutch and gearset (£2,500) - will give a nice 400-450bhp.

Trout

PS Sounds like you are planning something Steve - anything you want to share with us
PPS Have found a superb alterative to the HKS Racing Suction Kit that gives far superior filtration for £55 - will post a pic when I can be arsed

[Edited by Trout - 8/23/2002 11:03:24 PM]

STI MAN

If a Evo can be tuned to <=400Bhp without too much trouble, what makes it so different from the scoob engine,[apart from obvious flat4 / straight 4] as they are cars designed around a similar ethos, to compete in rallies adhering to group x/y/z rules.

wacky.banana

Trout,

Thanks. So that's £6.5K to get an additional X bhp (sorry, don't know what your starting point bhp was). Were you expecting to spend this much/this little, and is it VFM so far?

Steve, 13 grand to get to 400bhp might be a little scary (or it might not). Point is who does one trust to do the work and where is the guarantee that the magic 400bhp (stable and unburstable) will appear after all that effort? A less than expected outcome would be a killer for me (as it must have been for the guy who spent £15K to get 70bhp extra!).

steve McCulloch

Trout

Like the MD309 (similar to my MD195!) - that would be telling - nothing done yet - like I said how could I possibly do anything whilst in the States?....

I have not decided yet.... you will win in October in the 2 litre class at least.....ho hum...

steve McCulloch

Who says that 400 real bhp is so easy (cheap?) on an Evo

About 360 bhp is possible, but thats with a number of mods... to get above this on the cheap you are certainly risking it as the only way really is to get the boost up - not advisable on an Evo - loads of these have gone bang

Dont believe some of the tuner non-sense and some of the figures quoted in the mags are a nonsense unfortunately...... also some of the RR figures are highly dubious....

Even Dyno gauges can and are manipulated and you'd have to have at least 400 bhp off a number of Rolling roads - i.e. not just say Well Lane, which overstates compared to most other RR's!

To get say 420bhp out of a Scoob you would be spending about the same money as on an Evo...based on the tuners I've spoken to....

As far as 12-13k and the 400 bhp, nothing is ever bullet proof. I would expect to get 400 bhp from the mods quoted. Without the internal work I'd expect a probably safish 350 bhp, you can get more by raising the boost and holding say at 1.5-1.6 bar, but then engines can and do! give at lower boost figures than this......

steve McCulloch

As far as trusting someone to do the work - I'm sure that there are plenty of people that can comment on that

They do exist............................

Trout...

STi/Wacky,

there are lots of cars out there claiming to be easily tuned to x bhp - and, well, let's be frank, most of it is bull****. Not least of which I have been on track with Evos claiming very big power - some of them clearly have it - and others clearly do not.

And the big power machines clearly have a LOT of money behind them - the Norris car goes through £1,000+ rear diffs the way you and I get through Chocolate Hob *** - so I am sure they have put plenty of money into it (as well as running it on racing fuel...)

A real 400bhp from an EVO will almost certainly cost the same as it would on a Scoob - it would need an internal rebuild to be reliable and the costs mount up just the same.

Like co55ie - he posted his 450bhp ish list from GGR - I would be impressed if he got much change from £15k, possibly even £20k.

Spend this money on a Scoob and you can get the same power.

Like I said earlier - in OZ and the US it has been done - in the UK we have not taken it as seriously - however I expect to see a number of 400, possibly even 500bhp cars to emerge in the next six months or so. And these cars are certainly no more expensive than Evo or Skyline conversions.

Trout

Trout...

Wacky,

sorry - crossposted - if I had spent £15k to get the number that car got I would have been in tears I really feel for the guy that paid the invoice - BTW the car is now producing around 370bhp having been remapped properly.

I think the money on my car has produced very good value - but I have saved money by doing a lot myself - would I say that it is 100% unburstable - no - but no tuner can give you that guarantee - however the car is coming up to 50k miles - lots of track days and still goes strongly with NO engine problems at all.

Trout

PS Email me at rannoch1@hotmail.com and we can discuss this in more detail if you would like some help

Big Goon

I think we need c055ie to come in and help with this thread

wacky.banana

Guys,

Interesting responses. The sum of what you are saying seems to be that:

- If you spend the same shedload amount on a Scooby as on other marques then you can get the big power figures (sems to depend on who does the work?).

- Development wise we are some way behind our American cousins, however their expertise should/will filter over here in time.

- No one can guarantee unburstability (a little disturbing, this).

I will be going down the higher power route at some stage but I am not looking for mega bhp. What I am looking for is bags more torque, spread all over the place, plus added bhp as a bonus.

As with this thread and others I have posted over the months, one fundamental keeps eluding me, which is how does one get to a situ where one gets exactly what it says on the tin? If I was the bloke who paid £15K to get 70bhp, pi$$ed off is not quite how I would describe my reaction. I think I would be reaching for the nearest daisy cutter and using it fast!!

Seems there is still no way to get guarantees/tie down tuners as to exactly what one will get for one's money. If anyone of you has used a tuner who has been able to achieve delivery of what they promosed then please let me know (genuine request, not having a pop at anyone).

Still, this thread is about Scooby/Mitsi/Skyline et al ultimate development comparisons, not necessarily about what I want to eventually do.

Would be quite interested in pointers to specific cars in the states, for example, that have achieved the holy grail. Web links anyone?

WB

PS I must have been half asleep over the last few months as I'm completely ignorant of Co55ie and whatever he has been doing/saying. Someone enlighten me please? Who is this guy and what's he all about?

Trout...

Wacky,

the Australians are probably furthest ahead - although there are a few Rice boys in America

In terms of finding a tuner - a key step is to be able to find someone who will listen to what you want and the demonstrate empathy to your needs.

So you are saying not big power per se - more torque is what you want. Many tuning companies would respond by saying - buy this turbo - it will give you xxx bhp - or look this intercooler - rated to yyy bhp.

If they do that then walk away. Also walk away from anyone offering you 'guaranteed' power.

However - if someone sits you down and says, 'Mmmmm - more torque' - to get that you will need this type of configuration, 'Mmmm - have you thought about the impact of more torque on your gearbox/clutch/diffs?'

A good tuner will listen to your needs and design a solution around what you want - and tell you the consequences and then work with you to set a budget.

Also it is unlikely that one person will be able to achieve all the work - you are likely to need someone to pull it all together, a good engine builder, a good gearbox builder and someone to do the ECU side. It is very unlikely you will find all these people under one roof.

There are good'uns out there -in the UK - so keep the faith.

Trout

PS No one is ever going to fully warranty a heavily tuned engine
PPS I think that car you refer too originally got less than 50bhp post spend

Trout...

Wacky,

YHM,

Trout

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Well if you look at Rich Wild and see how much it cost him to get an extra 50% worth of power out of his MY95 uk car (equates to just over 100bhp) and wasnt it about 1500 quid a mere 10th of the price! (ok im not taking into consideration about his brakes etc which have all been done too) but power is available, you just have to find a good way (and safe way) to harness it properly

Tony

Trout...

Don't forget to uprate the suspension so you can corner better with all that power!

Trout

p1doc

joining late unfortunately. dont mitsubishi put out an evo extreme with 360 bhp for £40,000 and looking at adverts other companies starting with sti reckon they can get 400bhp for £5,500 and looking at this month's jap performance norris designs reckon they can do a evo with 630bhp for £25,000!!!!!!
martin

R19KET

You only have to look at F1, to know that no matter how much money you have, it's impossible to guaranty an engine will never blow.

Money no object, the very best in engineering, and manpower, and they still go bang on a regular basis.

The only way to start getting near a reliable engine, is to well over engineer it, and then run it conservatively, but, if like F1, you try and squeeze the last bhp out of an engine, you'll end up with the same problems.

Now, there are very few "tuners" in this country, with any "real" experience in building big power cars. Plenty of claims, but how many have we seen !!!

There are a few in the US, but not as many as you'd think, and some of those engines have been brought in from Aus'.

Aus' is different. 500bhp + cars are quite common, but they still cost £££££'s (or $$$$$$ for the pedantic to build.

We're catching up in the UK, but it will be a while before any company, with any integrity, would start openly offering reliable, big power conversions.

It's still very new, and just building "one" success, doesn't mean it can be reliably repeated.

However, I suspect that over the next few months, there will be some pretty impressive cars hitting the streets.

Mark.

Trout...

Mark,

to be pedantic it would be A$

The Evo Extreme is interesting as it is standard internals - ARP rod bolts and it runs 1.6bar (there is also a version that runs 1.9bar) It is strange that is does not actually produce more power

It would be interesting to see how long these engines will last - especially the 1.9bar version.

The actual figures are similar to that which a Scooby would produce - Craigs car produced 288bhp at the wheels - 390-400bhp ATF - and I seem to remember that was at 1.5 bar - he ran more later

His car was also genuinely quick (that is Trout's way of referring to any car that is even vaguely faster than mine )

Trout

wacky.banana

Trout,

YHM back!

R19KET, take your points on the F1 comparison. Nevertheless I feel its quite reasonable to demand a degree of reliability for these conversions. Unless you are going to use the car exclusively on the track and nowhere else, if its mixed driving (ie road use as well) then, IMO, its unreasonable for an engine to go bang just because you half put yer foot down to go past a dawdling tractor!

I think you are right in what you say that the experience of building these things in the UK is not there yet, and what we probably have is shedloads of hype. However for someone who might want to pay, say, £20K to get near to creating the ultimate Scooby, its not unreasonable for that individual to demand some guarantees.

To what level one can take those guarantees to is a moot point. However if we don't push for them in the real world all you will end up with is what we have today, which is an inability to properly validate/verify the massive power figures we get to hear about for some conversions.

As for F1, failure rates are improving all the time. I don't think Ron Dennis would stick for more than a certain small percentage of his engines blowing up before someone had their ba$$s chopped off and presented to them for breakfast!!!

(Pah, forgot the smileys again, first time round)

[Edited by wacky.banana - 8/24/2002 6:53:42 PM]

R19KET

WB,

I agree. Build an engine that can run XXXbhp, run it at 80%, and you'll get your reliability, but if for example you tested an engine on a bench dyno, to say 500bhp, would you be happy tuning it DOWN to 400bhp ????? I doubt it.

If you look into things, you'll find that achieving big power isn't really that difficult, give a realistic budget. What is hard, is actually finding someone capable of putting it together for you.

There are far too many companies out there, claiming to be "engine builders", who don't even know what "Plasti gauge" is, or how to work out, the result of doubling the head gasket thickness !!!

You will also find, that most of the engine builders out there, with the experience to build such an engine, treat the "spec'" as a "race" engine, and won't offer a guaranty, once it has been run on the bench dyno (recommended way of mapping this type of engine).

Mark.

wacky.banana

R19,

I think we are agreeing on the same things. However I will surprise you somewhat by saying that I would consider turning down the power of my engine in the example you give IF the payback was a degree of reliabilty and consistency! As I have said, I can't see the joy or purpose in having an engine running at 100, maybe 110 percent if it blows up every time you sneeze at it.

There has to be a certain amount of realism in all this (at least for real world applications).

To move the debate on a bit there is an increasing number of people like myself who don't necessarily buy or want big power per se, but are looking for either a balanced package or preferably a better spread and greater amounts of torque.

So lets say that's the objective, rather than big power. What are the challenges in this scenario and how can they be overcome? Are we still talking short engine build as a possible solution? I assume our Aussie cousins also have a handle on this aspect (ie achieving more torque in a Scooby)?

WB

Trout: YHM in a minute...

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

I think part of the problem here is that the reason there are very few reliable tuners, is that there are very few people who are prepared to spend the money required to get the power and reliability they are after. They all want 400bhp from an air filter and an exhaust.
The fact that a lot of the World Rally Cars are built in Britain, and several other top engine suppliers, shows that there is the knowledge and ability here in the UK to make it happen.
A big problem to modified road cars in the UK, is fuel and insurance. Northern Ireland is worse than the mainland. It is almost impossible to own, insure and fuel a modified car, for the meagre pittance we earn in the UK relative to the cost of living.
Someone said ND can build an Evo with 630bhp for £25,000. After seeing their car in action, I believe them, but while the engine may cost that, how much is the transmission etc to cope with that???
Same applies to the skylines, they do create huge amounts of power, but how much did it cost?

Trout...

Stevie,

and as I said earlier - the ND car's rear diff lasts as long as a digestive biscuit in a cup of tea when the car is on boost...

...it is an expensive game.

A full on transmission for a Scoob - to cope with WRC type power will be £30-50k

Trout

P20SPD@Home

at £30 - 50k

up early on a sunday

BTW guys, this is a very interesting thread, please quality posts up nad ignore my early morning madness

[Edited by P20SPD@Home - 8/25/2002 9:38:00 AM]