Adam M

Did anyone see driven last night? I was in the gym and it was showing with subtitles on, but because the reception was poor I didn't understand anything.

I was going to testdrive the clio 174 for a laugh (front wheel drive with lots of power).

This is purely for recreation and the fact that I dont pay for the fuel.

I was just wondering which clio it was and what they said about it.

[This message has been edited by Adam M (edited 26-01-2000).]

Oz

It was the speedy new Clio (172 or 174 whatever).....they tested it against the 206GTi and the Proton GTi.

It came out top (although the Pug was more responsive in steering and throttle) due to its superior straight line speed in the test I saw. It looked like it was understeering quite badly to me (but I wasn't watching too closely) - was this just in my imagination?

carl

I couldn't believe the 'driveability' test -- the Clio came last because it suffered from more torque steer than the other two. I should imagine that it was because, with 170 bhp on tap, it produces more torque than the other two. A really fair test...

I also thought that all three seemed to be adopting crazy roll angles through the corners, and I think the Pug three-wheeled.

AlexM

Oz,

It did look like the Clio was understeering heavily to me too. it isn't over-tyred, especially in view of the power.

Any FWD car getting to 62mph in 6ish seconds can't be suffering too badly for grip and traction though, or has plenty of grunt once the wheels have stopped spinnning!. Yum...

The drivability test, which seemed to be judged solely by how well the car handles when you aren't steering it was a waste of time. I can't remember the last time I tried taking my hands off the steering wheel while flooring it!. Suprise Suprise, the car with the least power also has the least torque steer.

As an ex R5 GT turbo owner, I am curiously drawn to that Clio. You'd think I would have learned my lesson first time around!.

Cheers,

Alex


[This message has been edited by AlexM (edited 26-01-2000).]

Grubby

I agree with the result, the clio is best but it does cost about two grand more than the others so this shouldn't be a surprise. Yes they all understeered, one car certainly did corner on 3 wheels and of course the clio will suffer from more torque steer with more torque! At least nowadays power steering means this shouldn't be a problem, not like wrestling with an over-chipped RS Turbo in the 80's!

I hated all the references to 'boy racers' during the test, after all aren't these girls cars?????

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Mark Johnson

So okay if this is a problem on the Clio 172 what is the Clio V6 (250 bhp, mid engined 5 seconds and 170 mph +) going to be like ?

I am particularly interested as I put an order in for one before I saw the error of my ways and got my Imp.

Do people think it is going to be an uncntrollable monster a good toy or worthwhile investment due to the limited production run ?

Mark

[This message has been edited by Mark Johnson (edited 26-01-2000).]

AlexM

Pah!

RS turbos were no problem in comparison to the Rover 220 turbo coupe - much too much power for the chassis to handle, and the worst imaginable torque steer.

Mark,

The Clio V6 will probably be very twitchy with a short wheelbase, and a mid-mounted, torquey 3 litre motor. I remember reading a track test of the one-make racer (CAR mag?)where the journos were spinning off left, right, and center. Even the professional racers were struggling with snap oversteer.

At least it won't torque-steer as it is RWD.

Cheers,

Alex

MorayMackenzie

AlexM,

Rover Turbo Coupe "Tomcat" with bad torque steer? I drove a friend's one not long ago, it had a brilliant mechanical (torsen) limited slip diff which made it drive like no other frontWD car I've ever driven. Maybe the one you drove didn't have this LSD, but I think it was standard fit for a while. Maybe your torque steer was the diff in action? Did you notice how you can put it into a bend and ADD power to drag it around, scary!

Moray

AlexM

Hi Moray,

I don't know if it had an LSD or not, but the example I drove was absolutely frightening. You really had to have a firm grip on the wheel, and countersteer significantly to avoid it trying to dive off into a hedge!.

Having problems staying in a straight line didn't encourage me to push it round bends (especially as it belonged to my Boss!), but maybe it is one of those cars that seems to work better when you take it by the scruff of the neck.

Cheers,

Alex

Steve Godson

I too watched "driven" last night with great interest; with the Clio in particular. I was also drawn to the idea of owning one (sacrilege I know now that I own a scooby!!).
But again I am an ex Clio Williams owner (as well as an R5 GT & R19 16v), so part of me will always want to own a powerful FWD hatch....

Nick Lines

The driver of the Pug looked to be having more fun, and at a couple of points the Clio appeared to be a handful. Still, I loved my Clio RSI and the 19 16V before that - but the Scoob isn't as ugly (how many times can you say that about another car) and has a huge grin factor. Still, I echo the sentiments that I'm tempted to take a test drive, just for old time's sake... Or persuade the other half to invest in one...

Mark Barrett

Guys

Torque Steer will not occur on the Clio V6 Sport as it only affects a car when power is put through the wheels which do the steering. A rear wheel drive car has it's rear wheels fixed, and cannot turn, therefore no torque steer.

An LSD will make a car less susceptible to torque steer as a rule, but it does depend upon the type and design of LSD. Most road cars will be better with an LSD as offered by manufacturers as an option.

Torque Steer is actually created by two factors. Obviously the amount of torque: the more torque the more likely the torque steer. However, this will be affected MASSIVELY by the length of the two driveshafts. Unequal length driveshafts mean that more torque is transmitted down one shaft than the other (principle of moments, a force against a distance) and therefore the car will "tug" due to the uneven torque applied to the road.

The ideal for a front wheel drive car is to have the diff in the middle and equal length shafts. Volskwagen are good at getting this nearly right. Compare an old Golf to a Peugeot 205 GTI for example!

Many manufacturers fit counterbalances to driveshafts (often look like rubber donuts) to compensate and equalize the weight of the two shafts, but it will never be perfect as the lengths are still different.

This will either enlighten people or open a whole new can of worms!!!!

Adam M

thanks Mark for enlightening us.

Just a couple of things,

All the cars in the test were front wheel drive and we acknowledged that there would be no torque steer with a rear wheel drive car such as the 3 litre clio.

The uneven torque steer is not due to momemnts in this case. Yes moments are related to the distance, but only perpendicular distance from the pivot and since both drive shafts have the same radius, there is no difference. The torque difference in torque comes from the length of the axle enabling better transmission of torque. This is due to tortional forces being more easily transmitted over a long (axial) distance, which is why long screw drivers are "more powerful" than shorter screw drivers.

I Stancer

Good bit about screwdrivers I obviuosly should have stayed on at school to do A level Phisics , instead of getting money to buy my first car !!!(Ford fiesta !)
My 125bhp CRX had a short centre drive shaft with a bearing at the end to make the actual driveshafts equal , which was highly efective ,as for a very powerful front driver (it was in 87 ) it had very little torque steer
Also Sticking bigger tyres on a car is not always going to improve it , A relatively light front driver canot benefit from more than say a 195 max without being lethal in the wet with worn tyres . Dry lateral grip would improve with wider tyres , but steering ( including tourque steer ) and general handling could be completely Bolloxed

That is a technical term learned at agricultural engineering college when you were all learning about srewdrivers

Ian

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Adam M

I Stancer,

Be you a farmer then?

Oi loikes farmers.


they do a damn good job!

Adam M

Have to add one more cos I want flames.

Stu

This post reminded me about something I noticed. I recorded driven and watched it later.
All I can say is that they were obviously hiding some nasty handling characteristic of the Clio.
If you look carefully at the bit where they were driving down the road, part of the front bumper is missing! - A paused video doesn't lie.
I wonder which one of them crashed it!

Andy Hall

I'm sure I saw a flash of it understeering off the track at some point.

Andy

I Stancer

Patently obvious your ona

I too saw the bent bumper , and yea the Clio did seem to understeer more than the Pug , Front drive road cars rarely show well on a race track ( or 4wd for that matter ) witness tonights Top Gear , but as Mark Higgins said , the inate stability makes them easier to punt hard on the road . We would all love to play power slides in a grunty rwd on a wet airfield , but most of us wouldn't dare to go 9/10ths on the road ; in a Scoob or Evo6 however we can all feel like Colin M or Alesi . and thrash the nuts of any BM-M any day