T-uk

this is john banks thread but everythings to ****

john banks

Not really, perhaps if I used a stronger actuator very slightly, also need to rewrap my uppipe as the wrap was removed for some reason. It reaches 1 bar at 2700 RPM in 5th gear and 2900 in 4th, the plot above is 3rd gear, and also this is on the road with realistic loads. This is with headers on. Without headers the 2.0 was about 3100 RPM in 5th gear for 1 bar. Headers knock it by about 200 RPM. So it is about as expected.

[Edited by john banks - 12/1/2003 12:57:49 PM]

EMS

I am curious how long you can withstand not turning the boost up....

Mark.

[Edited by EMS - 12/1/2003 4:24:26 PM]

The Fixer

John, turn it up and find the limit of the engine We are all curios has to how far the USDM 2.5 STi will go......lol

Conrad

Ps If your worried about the gearbox i know where there is a six speed

[Edited by RSVR Racer - 12/1/2003 10:29:48 PM]

john banks

Thought I would document my little project, which Andy F, T-uk and AlanG are helping me with. Hope to update it as it progresses so will be a complete record. Pictures galore will follow at each step.

I have an EJ25 open deck DOHC Phase I block from Rallycolin.

On disassembly of the EJ25, the big ends have slight marks, plan is to source 10 thou undersized bearings. Looks like it was a piston slap warranty job.

Plan is to uprated the middle two bolts to studs.

Controversially because of the modest power requirements for a daily driver to be reliable and easy to drive from the transmission point of view I am not planning on closing the block.

Axis Power Racing's 2.4 liners look attractive with a larger area for gasket integrity, probably with standard sized head studs.

Pauter rods are available for the Phase I EJ25, and should work fine with Ron's kit. http://www.pauter.com/subaru.htm $720 for set of 4.

If sticking with 2.5 then JE pistons look suitable
http://www.jepistons.com/pdf/2002-je.pdf
http://www.jepistons.com/pdf/2002-je26-27.pdf
See bottom of second page

http://www.rpmrons.com/jesubaru.html $115 each plus rings

Turbo plan is a TD05/06 20G with the exhaust wheel cut as necessary - surge will hopefully be less of a problem on the 2.4 or 2.5. Hopefully only 1.3 bar will be required to make the most out of a driveable clutch/box setup as follows (so can only go up to 450 BHP and 400 lbft) :

Lateral performance clutch/flywheel/synchro gearbox being arranged, sticking with standard UK ratios. Plans for suspension underway - at least tightening up the existing bumpsteer/Eibach setup with strut braces and probably some other bits and pieces, also going to try some KW variant 3 coilovers. Brakes already sorted by AP.

ECU plan - initial plan is to use 550 injectors and AE802 remapped JECS. The 550s should give good starting and idle, and I will look at the fuel pressure required. The JECS with Ecutek software has a lot of "hidden" configuration maps, hoping it will cope with the 25% bigger injectors with 25% bigger capacity very well. MAP sensor should not be an issue (ceiling in ECU with standard sensor at 25 PSI boost) given low boost levels planned. MAF sensor still has 0.4V available, which translates into a lot of power, and I can recalibrate it up to 5.12V signal.

Budget target is under £5k given that I already have a lot of the supporting components required. This should include the box/clutch/engine/build.

David_Wallis

good luck..

sounds similar to what Im planning.. just down on the power I have planned..

Any thoughts to revlimits, bearings, cams, valve springs, retainers, shims, heads / head work?

oh and do something with the oil pump.

David

[Edited by David_Wallis - 2/20/2003 11:28:21 AM]

john banks

Will do the Roger Clark oil pump. Heads/valves/cam etc plan to leave standard at this level of power, I think bascially I am limited by transmission. Aim to make 400lbft as early as possible then flat to 5900 RPM where it will make 450 BHP and then tail it off with a rev limit at 7000 RPM.

It is confirmed that the Pauter rods do work with Ron's kit, apparently the Eagle ones do too and are cheaper, but I can only find EJ18/20/22 listed. Ron sells a kit including rods for the Phase II EJ25, but not the Phase I.

Someone help me here - by any chance are the EJ22 rods the same length as the EJ25?

Rod lengths for Pauter EJ25 DOHC are listed as 5.180", EJ22 is 5.135", for JE pistons for EJ25 for 8.5:1 CR 5.162" rod length is listed. But the 2.2 Pauter rods are listed with larger big end eyes than the Phase I EJ25 rods. Otherwise the length difference is 1.4mm, which would give different compression or even collide with the valves?

[Edited by john banks - 2/20/2003 12:14:34 PM]

john banks

Right, confirmed a load of details with Ron @ Axis, very helpful chap The present plan is:

EJ25 Phase I open deck block from Rallycolin (already got)
2.4 litre liners, pistons, pins and rings from Ron
EJ20 rods and bolts from Eagle (these work with Ron's kit on EJ25)

This should give approximately 8.3 to 8.4:1 with thick gaskets, can go higher with thinner ones.

What compression ratio should I go for given that I want a low boost torque monster for daily driving - should I try to get it up nearer to 9:1 ? Hoping this will be a REALLY streetable motor

Is there any strength advantage from using thinner headgaskets?

Here is the info on the Eagle rods:

Subaru EJ18 / 20 / 22, (Impreza WRX)
5/16" ARP 2000 Bolts
CRS5137S3D Stock 5.137" length, 490 grams. $ 359.00 set

However, they don't list separately the Phase I.... need to confirm.


[Edited by john banks - 2/20/2003 4:20:29 PM]

Andy.F

2.5 normally aspirated block




How it looks inside once split




Open deck




2.5 79mm crank




Original 2.5 pistons n rods (not being used)




Original oil pump (not being used)





[Edited by Andy.F - 2/20/2003 6:54:08 PM]

555mac

Being a displaced teuchtar thought you may appreciate some info a little birdy tells me that the svx 3.3 oil pump will bolt staight in and supply approx 20% more oil ie greater flow.Bob mac "down under"

john banks

On the hunt for Phase I EJ20 rods to go with Ron's kit. Otherwise it will be trying to get a Phase II EJ25 crank into the Phase I case, or try to get a Phase II EJ25 block, or just go for the 2.5 JE pistons and Pauter rods.

David_Wallis

How many do you have or are you building???

does the J mean johns??

john banks

Andy F and I might be doing the same...

Except he is going down the dogbox/nasty clutch route and will as usual pass me

john banks

Thanks to Mark for pointing out that the Phase I EJ20 rods have the same size rod eyes as the Phase II, it is only the EJ25 which has a 48 vs 52mm. Therefore for Ron's kit you either need custom EJ20 rods with 48mm rod eyes, or a Phase II crank, which has some bearing issues fitting into a Phase I case.

The other question is of bore walk- is it an ovalling of the bores or a lateral movement of the whole thing? This affects the perceived usefulness of liners... the tough thick liners would help ovalling, but not lateral movement which would still stress the headgasket.

At only 450 BHP maybe I can just use Phase I EJ25 rods and pistons and be done with it?

David_Wallis

what just uprated pistons and rods?? Ie phase 1??

I wouldnt bother with liners..

Harvey is running that power with open deck...

Head studs should stop the head lifting.. and I've seen no proof of bore walk yet..

paul is picking up his 2.5 that he has had closed on saturday.. price looked worthwhile trying it...

see the thread on 22b projects forum..

David

[Edited by David_Wallis - 2/21/2003 3:16:37 PM]

john banks

Thanks David, yes thinking towards EJ25 Phase I rods/pistons. I'll see what Mark can come up with. His rods are available with lead bearings in undersizes.

Subaru do the following undersize bearings:

0.03mm (1 thou approx, maybe it is really 0.025mm)
0.05mm (2 thou)
0.25mm (10 thou)

for £108.32 for the EJ25 Phase I.

[Edited by john banks - 2/21/2003 4:48:22 PM]

David_Wallis

<shhh> between you and me, i've just bought some, erm odd length rods from mark </shhh>

john banks

Beans spill

Pavlo

Hello there

hypoluxa

What do Roger Clark actually do to the oil pump? Oh and bores do walk...

john banks

Can you explain more of the mechanism and whether you think the liners will help hypo?

Pavlo

Liners shoulp help in a number of ways:

1. Rons liners are thicker walled, so stiffer

2. The top hat section gives a much stiffer upper end

But there will be a loss in adhesion between the block and liner when going from one that the block is cast around to a shrink fit jobbie.

I can now got Subaru WRC liners, they're aluminium with a nikasil type bore coating.

Paul

Light Blues

You'll have some fun I am sure but 450/400? No chance! But then how easy is it to be a doubter? Too easy. Open deck block? Me no engine builder but I thought closed deck blocks are much stronger?

1.3bar for 400lbs/ft? Pluck that one from that piece of air that the England cricket team keep using?

As a casual observer it doesn't make sense, doesn't add up. "Reliable Power" and Subaru don't go together either. Buy a Skyline mate and save yourself some cash!

john banks

Get your flame suit ready m8

Since I am running 380/370 on a 2.0 at 1.5 bar (1.67 bar midrange for the torque) on a smaller turbo (with standard internals and open deck block) is it that surprising?

If you consider 370 lbft at 1.67 bar on a 2.0, then with the same efficiency you should get 400 lbft at 1.3 bar on 2.5....

370 * 2.3*2.5/2.67/2.0 = 398 lbft, well near enough but the turbo I am using has slightly higher midrange efficiency too

You are obviously used to torqueless Skylines



Care to look at the compressor map above and look at the flow available at PR 2.3? I make it 685 CFM

Consider a 2.5 litre engine at 6000 RPM with 85% VE and 1.3 bar, and you need about 605 CFM.... now look on the compressor map and you will see that the turbo will be about 73% efficient there. It is not unreasonable to surmise that I need somewhere in the region of 605 to 685 CFM to make the desired power and that that should be available with the setup I propose.

AndyF using this turbo on a 2.0 is already running 432 BHP at 1.6 bar, and at 375 BHP at under 1.2 bar. It doesn't take much to realise that multiplying 375 by 1.2 or 1.25 (for 2.4 or 2.5 litre) should mean that my estimate of 450 BHP at 1.3 bar is if anything on the conservative side. In addition the ECU was not even mapped for the figures I give on the 2.0

I personally think Subaru engines are underestimated and that detonation is the big problem, the next issue is the pistons and rods.

Wouldn't want a Skyline - too heavy, there were two at the last airfield day I was at, one I beat happily, the other retired because of.... reliability problems I used to want an Evo, but I beat all of those as well including a 420 BHP one I'll stick with the Scooby weighing only 1235kg thanks

So if you want to come on my thread, come with some better ammunition next time

[Edited by john banks - 2/22/2003 2:59:41 PM]

R19KET

John,

I must use a different calculation to you ?

I get an EJ25 engine being able to consume 514cfm at 6000rpm, and 1.3bar. A tad optomistic for 400bhp +.

The TD05/6 can certainly flow enough air, although I think you'll have fun controlling spool up, until you work out the best clip for the exhaust wheel (probably every other blade )

I think if you want to get 400bhp + from 1.3bar, you'll need to achieve peak power a circa 7~7500rpm. This isn't easy on a 2.5lt.

Andy.F

Mark

If you work with live examples such as my own cars 432 at 1.6bar 432 x 2.5/2.0 x 2.3/2.6 = 478 x 6400/6800 = 450 bhp.

Or take Bobs 464 at 1.7bar
464 x 25/20 x 2.3/2.7 = 494 x 6400/7000 = 452bhp.

Andy

john banks

Mark, yes I ballsed up the RPM - I used 7000 RPM but said 6000 RPM. The live vs theoretical figures are interesting. Maybe 1.5CFM/BHP is conservative or we are all living off inflated figures?

If I went for peak power at 6500 RPM rather than 6000 RPM, and used 7/6.5 *2.3 which is about 1.5 bar then it might do the trick theoretically?

Compressor map and engine should still be happy at that?

I was hoping that the 450/400 target would be quite easy and I'll be holding it back for the sake of the tranny, but we'll have to suck it and see I guess.

Some of the flames dying away slightly (for now ) from the pro-Skyline poster's ankles

Light Blues

You will not get very sensible posts from me I am afraid!

I had an R32 GTR and was a great car and whilst they are very lacking in the torque dept. (due to the length of the rods in my opinion), they are very fast road cars. Witness the 0-100mph times in the 7secs.

Not fast on the track tho'. An ickle 400hp Sierra on road tyres would out-drag a 600hp R33 on slicks on the back straight at Donington.

Anyway, if you want an Impreza to go quickly you'll have to make a rwd one........... they just ain't quick in a straight line no matter if you do manage to have 450hp for the 3 secs before the engine starves itself of oil and lets go!

Go and buy a Sierra! Real men drive rwd

john banks

Maybe the Impreza tuning scene is taking a while to catch up but there are a rapidly increasing number of 2.0 litre cars comfortably over 400 BHP and daily drivers in the UK now, and some for some time. I am fitting a better oil pump FWIW.

Light Blues

And another thing!!

Methinks there are too many armchair engine builders on here............ they know who they are........ don't they Mr Aigin......

I would like to have a ride in a 400hp Impreza at a track day please just to prove to myself that they are no more than tractors!! Just kidding, I used to have an Impreza when they were still cool, 1997.