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Is there any direct relationship between the subaru 16v boxer engine and alfa 16v boxers as someone somewhere else has posted a statement that the subaru bought the design for an all alloy 16v boxer from FIAT when FIAT acquired Alfa from the Italian government in the mid 80's. I know scoobs have been running boxers since the early 70's (possibly before alfa stuck one in a sud)and that the Alfa boxer is an iron block design but I would like to know whether there is any truth in this, or is an urban myth?

Ralf

No idea, really. But I just can'T imagine the Japanese copying the Italians.


Ralf

Caronte

they always did, and they will always do it!

IWatkins

See: http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~iwatkins/boxer.jpg

Similar or what ?

Mark Jackson

THey all nicked the idea off Jowett cars of Brafrord who did Boxer engines from the turn of the century. Has anyone ever seen the Jowett Jvelin (Saloon) and Jupiter (sportscar), 1500 cc Boxer engine in both models, was the fastest thing around for that capacity during its day (1950s)

logiclee

Anyone know why Alfa has ditched the boxer...



... in favour of the Twin Spark?




Lee

MarkCSC

girly FWD?

Caronte

also ferrari did for F1 engine ..

logiclee

Mark,

Yeah I suppose so, wouldn't be cost effective to try and get the boxer to drive the front wheels only when you can package a transverse inline engine with gearbox and diff all in one unit in the engine bay.

Lee

mozzaITA

THE JAPONESE ARE NOT INOVATORS!!!!...They simply copy and improve things.
Forza Italia!!!

Caronte

bravo MOZZA!

mozzaITA

Oppps Japanese sorry!! Campione del mondo 2002!!! it true though the japanese are good at whot they do I.E copy other peoples ideas and generally improve them but they dont come up with original ideas like others. Still i luv there cars....EVO rules!!!!! LOL

mozza ITALIA (AG)

carl

Alfa are ditching the twin-sparks for the new JTS engines now (single spark, direct injection IIRC).

logiclee

Carl,

Thats right the JTS will soon be available in 2.0l form.

Lean burn for emissions legislation but only upto 1500rpm, good flat torque curve and 165bhp. Doesn't sound too bad.

Lee

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No definitive answer yet then?

Logiclee, alfa dropped the boxer engine because of the amount of work required to bring it into line with future emmissions requirements.
As it was, the addition of a cat reduced the power of the 16v unit from 139 to 132bhp and forked the driveabilty, especially when it was stuffed into the front of a podgy old Alfa 145 or 146.

Mark, the Sud may have been girly fwd but anyone who has driven one can testify that they are a scream to drive [the Alfa 33 was
available with 4WD by the way] and light years ahead of the offerings form your usual purveyor of grey dustbins (bit like Scoobs then].

So, did FIAT flog Subaru Alfas design?
or did Subaru provide their own interpretation of alfa classic engine?
or did Subaru copy Alfa whose design chief worked on the Porsche
Flat four that was developed from a Volkswagen design that was pinched from Jowett when Mr Porsche was on his holidays in Bradford?

over to you engine nerds, cos I don't know.

IWatkins

... neither do I.

But the 33 16v car is the only car I've owned that I miss. It had soul, it made a better noise than a Scooby with a SS system and started everytime. OK, some of the electrics were a bit funny, but, hey, its Italian

Reffro

Err Mozza who was it helping Ferrari in the Mid 90's with their engines, when they couldn't get enough power out of them. Let me remind you, Ferrari had Honda engineers at the factory giving them tips on how to get close to Renault power outputs. They may build a good looking car but Italians aren't the best engineers.

Caronte

well. this is B****hit. First the palmares of the Ferrari boxer engine ( Lauda with the 312T) counts 4 world championship (Lauda-Hunt-lauda and finally Scheckter). Secondly Ferrari had one of the bests engineers: like Forghieri. Now we have Paolo Martinelli as a chief engines engineer, which has produced a couple of engines with nice flavour from the exaust not to annoy too much the others team behind....

carl

Yes, but what about Osamu Goto?

Reffro

Ferrari may be in front at the moment, but they still don't have the best engine (see BMW on that score),have Ross Brawn running the race team, Rory Byrne designing the car and Jean Todt in overall control, not much Italian talent in that line up.

Caronte

Do you know where the BMW engine has been developed?
It has been developed at Oral Engineering near modena 5 years ago . I was present. They where testing a twin cylinder in vee of 600 cc (which multiplied by 5 gives a 10 cyl 3000cc).

Aside, Ferrari reflects its victories because of the TEAM:

General Director: Jean Todt
Technical Director: Ross Brawn
Engine Director: Paolo Martinelli
Formula 1 Sporting Director: Stefano Domenicali
Maserati and Ferrari Owners Racing Director: Claudio Berro
Motor Sport Press Officer: Luca Colajanni
Sponsorship Manager: Carlo Tazzioli




Track and Technical Management

Technical Director: Ross Brawn
Chief Designer: Rory Byrne
Direzione Industriale: Mario Almondo
Electronics: Roberto Dalla
Chief Race Engineer: Ignazio Lunetta
Chief Test Team Engineer: Luigi Mazzola
Chief Mechanic: Nigel Stepney
Race Engineer Car no. 1: Luca Baldisserri
Race Engineer Car no. 2: Gabriele Delli Colli
Test Team Engineer: Massimo Atzori
Chief mechanic car no. 1: Federico Bertazzo
Chief mechanic car no. 2: Claudio Papaleo
Chief mechanic spare car: Francesco Uguzzoni, Ivano Barletta
Chief mechanic Test Team: Gianni Petterlini




Engine management

Engine Director: Paolo Martinelli
Design and Development: Gilles Simon
Production and chief track engineer: Giuseppe D'Agostino
Customer Teams (Sauber and Prost): Stefano Govoni
Engine research: Giorgio Quattrini


The perfect human management makes Ferrari the strongest team in Formula 1.

C.

Caronte

and BTW , the owner Chief director of Oral Engineering is Mauro Forghieri.

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do you reckon Mauro might know the answer to my original question then cos he must be a right proper engine nerd?

Reffro

LOL ad

Caronte

google..

HuggyB

Wasn't the Toyota Gt4, Impreza and Lancer Evo's all copies of the original Italian Group A machine, most successful rally car of all time, the legendary Lancia Delta Integrale?

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and as you are aware the Lancia Delta Integrale was based on the Lancia Delta HF 4WD which was Lancia's interpretation of the Audi Quattro which was based on the VW Iltis; a 4WD military/utilty vehicle which can trace it's ancestry to the VW Beetle; the boxer engine of which was ripped off (maybe?) from Jowett.
So there you are, Mark was right, all roads lead to Bradford and the best engineers and innovators are British.

HuggyB

I'll take it we agree that Japanese sometimes copy Italians then. (I’m not sure if it was you but someone else said it that wouldn't happen... )
Who can blame them for copying though, the Integrale won 6 manufacturers & 4 drivers titles in 6 years, the Japanese manufacturers would be crazy not to follow suit.

GaryC

JTS engines are still twin spark - it just a development of the current engine. Even Mercedes have copied the twin spark idea!