chrisp

Simon,
The previous link - dont you have to replace the rear tyres everytime you fill up with petrol.
Seriously you can hire them by the hour in Las Vegas (where else), I nearly did.
All the young lads on holiday were tearing up the main strip from traffic light to traffic light.
You could win one in on of the casino from a slot machine, scary country .

348 reliability - no idea. I always want a 328 after watching Magnum PI.
Someone will now tell me it was a 308 I bet

chrisp



[This message has been edited by chrisp (edited 06-01-2000).]

Mike Rainbird

Dear Simon,
I know it is pretty irrelevant now that you have your impending ban, but the only Ferraris to buy are the following:
355
F40
F50
288GTO
360
The rest are poor handling / build, underpowered piles of expensive poo, that are mere baubles for their owners (especially the 348!). Servicing is crippling (£1-3k EVERY time) and reliability is worse than with the Lotus, the reason you don't tend to here so much about it though is that Ferrari owners don't use their cars. If its done over 10,000 miles it is considered to be high mileage by the dealers!

As to the Viper, you're having a laugh - I thought you wanted something that handled!?

With this in mind I have selected the ideal car which I think you should go and test drive (if you can find one!). BMW M3 Evo III E30 (as in 2.5 4 cylinder one). I know it is left hand drive only, I know it "only" has 237bhp, but please, please drive one before you get banned (they are majorly hard to find in this spec) - although the earlier models can be had for as little as £7k, you will need at least £20k to find the BEST Evo 3 and I absolutely promise you, you will NOT find a sweeter handling rear drive car that can also be used EVERY day (you won't want to get out of it anyway!). The engine revs so smoothly that it sounds as unfussed at 7500 as it does at idle. Also because it is a limited edition model the value will stay reasonably static and the mileage is not so much of a problem as like the Porsches, they are known to be able to hack 100,000 with no probs.

However, it is one of those cars that you HAVE to drive before being able to pass a judgement on (a bit like the Scooby, you wonder what all the fuss is about until you drive one).

Hope you do okay with the ban, but I would reckon on 8 weeks minimum. The guy is right about the means test, they only ask you to fill in a form that you are supposed to send off to them so that they can see before you go to court - you do not have to provide evidence or "proof" with wage slips etc. I did NOT return mine and all they did was ask me what my income / outgoings (when in the court) were before they decided on the fine. Obviously, I under exagerated one and over exagerated the other. They did not question this (providing you haven't got a super-dooper job title - like "director" or anything like that, they won't get suspicious). I just told them I was an "Admin Manager" for a sub-contracting firm... (make it sound as lowly as possible without lieing....).
Good luck (but TRY that M3!)
Mike

Walt

I can vouch for the handling prowess of the E30 M3. Simply put, the original M3 is the best handling car I have ever driven (even better than my current fat-tired Evo) - highly adjustable cornering attitude, masses of steering feel, and superb balance. I owned and loved the M3 for five years. Mine was the 192hp car. Only drawback is serious lack of torque (only 170lb-ft peak). Also, the M3 is nowhere near as swoopy looking as the Lotus, Ferrari, Porsche, NSX, etc.

Walt

Nightmare

I'd love to know why this particular post has lost the 'no text wrap' command - slightly weird, and very annoying!

A Viper!!!! cool looking and sounding car, seems like a good price as well, and a nice low mileage. Build quality is reasonably good, and the servicing isnt too crippling - if you can find somewhere that does service them!

The only time Ive driven one in anger was at Snetterton, and I have to say it was miles better behaved and more fun than Id been led to believe. I kinda expected this monster of a thing, but it was actually easy to place, torquier than a very torquey thing and excellent to promote massive lift off oversteer/powersliding in! I know that everyone slates the handling - like Mike - but it is entertaining if nothing else....

down sides - very offset peddles and you have to reach about 3 miles, with the 'wrong' hand, for the gearstick - seeing as Im sure its lhd. I would still go and have a play though! God only knows what insurance would be like..

Think the M3 is brilliant, but I get a feeling that you want something wit some stunning looks as well as performance?

cheers
N

SDB

Hi all

Thanks for yet more fab advice.

I shall definately bin the idea of the Ferrari then, until I can comfortably afford a 355 or something. M3, I am intrigued. I will definately try to find one for the experience, but 'K'nightmare (sorry) is right. I have never been this fickle about a car before. Handling and performance (only just in that order) have always been the most important things, but I really want something which is going to make me moist even BEFORE I get in it, this time.

Also, I have always wanted the type of sports cars which are always 2 seaters but have tended to sway towards the practicality of 4 seats, but the Wife and I are just thinking about starting a tribe, so I figure, this is my last chance!!

I am normally dead against the majority of B'mers but what about a Z3M coupe thingy.

Very quick, s'posed to be great handling.. Is it 4 seats?

I do really love the Esprit though - AH YES! , it IS the new interior.. I checked today.. BTW.. The garage won't let me take the car for a test drive on my own. I know it is worth a few quid and all that, but I kinda dislike the lack of trust (don't mean that to sound as harsh as it does). Are there any lotus dealers you would recommend. They are willing to come with me for a 1 hour test drive, but I don't think this is enough. I also find it far less beneficial when you have a salesman next to you. I really don't want to thrash the car (really), but I want a couple of hours to get comfortable in it.. also to drop it into RGS Motorsport who will look it over for me (as they do ALL of my new cars).

What do you think? Am I being unreasonable?

Cheers

Simon

chrisp

Hi Simon,
A friend at work brought a brand new Elise from Peter Smiths in Derby
and was really happy with the service. They have a great reputation on the Lotus newsgroup and supply loads of Lotus new and used.
I had a look in my local newspaper and spotted they have
a 1996 P reg V8 twin turbo SE in lotus racing green and sand hide (piped green) its done 19K and up at £35,750.

They also have an R 97 V8 Gt at 39K and a
sport 350 unregistered at 66,750 a bit
over budget though.


cheers

chrisp

[This message has been edited by chrisp (edited 08-01-2000).]

SDB

Thanks Chris, I'll give them a call.

BTW. Where do I go to read this news group thing then?

I went to look at the Esprit again today. Looked even more stunning than I remembered. They have agreed to a longer test drive to allow a stop off at RGS Motorsport, which is nice. I'm arranging it for Monday.

Had a really good look round at different cars today.

Went to the local Porka dealer:-
Had a few nice cars there, but nothing which really turned me on until the £60K kinda price range. Also, couldn't get anyone to talk to me, wasn't overly impressed with the sales service to be honest.

Mercedes:-
Nicer dealer but no cars of interest except the SL soft top thing which is too slow.

BMW:-
What a moron sales guy. Obviously had made his mind up that a guy in jeans and a T shirt (me) could not afford the M3 EVO he was looking at. What a plonker. Said I was interested and that I had come to a provisional final choice of an M3 EVO soft top or a Lotus Esprit, and can I get a test drive and he made every excuse under the sun. So I shall take my hard earned dosh eslewhere.

Toyota:-
Looked at a supra twin turbo which was very nice, and about 10 grand cheaper than the Lotus but just doesn't command any form of mistique or intrigue. Yes they are flash and bloody fast, and I think they look really cool, but nobady is going to wet their pants over it. I don't think. Not like the Scooby. I think I would much rather have a better Scooby than a Supra, so that ruled that out.

It's really difficult. I think I am still at a cross roads of either M3 EVO soft top or Esprit. M3 is far more practicle, comfortable, reliable, etc but it would be a sacrifice of passion I think. As I've said before I consider this to be possibly my last chance to have a car like the Esprit (ie 2 seater out-and-out sports car).

Test driving the Lotus on Monday, I have a feeling I'm going to be £38,950 worse off by Monday night!

What do you think?

Cheers

Simon

chrisp

Simon,
I dont where the newsgroup is but I can find out but it will be Monday as the guy is a work colleague.

firefox

Hi..

Pete Smith's is near me.. its in Hatton..

They do have some nice cars in..

The showroom is with the petrol station.. the workshop is on a seperate site.

As for the Viper...awesome... Not practicle for everyday use... I drove one when I was in Canada once... quite freightening really..


People dont realise their size. They are massive... you cant see the front of the car as it drops off.. and its impossible to see behind you...

Forget 1st gear ...wheel spin!!! lol

J.

SDB

I've been thinking (unusual for me)..

I don't meen this to sound really stupid, but is it beneficial to import Esprits?

I know they are made in Norfolk and all that, but stranger things have happened than for them to be shipped to the States or wherever and work out cheaper to ship the hell back again, etc than buy over here.

Please don't tell me how stupid I am if this is not the case.

Simon (Almost wishing I hadn't posted this!)

Mike Rainbird

Dear Simon,
Can't believe you are considering an M3 Evo CONVERTIBLE! I borrowed one for the weekend from the local BMW dealership on the premise of buying (as you do!), and although it looked "the bollocks" and the electric roof was fun to play with, the scuttle shake was absolutely unbelievable. When you went down a road with ANY bumps in it (99% of UK!), you could actually see the back headrests twisting and moving in the rear view mirror. The other thing was that I actually got called a "tosser" for driving it by someone on a bicycle at a set of traffic lights (and he didn't even know me! Although the number plate was M3 BMW!). This reaction shocked me, as never have I received anything other than "nice car mate" from people about the Esprit in the same situation....

The good thing about living in Norfolk is that I am right near the factory (10miles) and the local dealer is able to borrow the factory demonstrators (the same cars that go to the magazines). At the end of '98 I borrowed R472 AAH (the car that appeared on "Driven", as well as being the press hack) for the weekend with a view to chopping in the S4. It only had 12,000 miles on the clock at the time, but had obviously been well abused (the wheels were scuffed pretty badly - a sign of a hard life!), as well as the driver's seat looking pretty worn from all the comings and goings. I put 542 miles on the clock in the time I had it (Saturday morning to Monday morning) and was extremely disappointed with the performance. The cabin was an improvement (especially the use of the Citreon interior buttons), the gearbox was "supposed" to have a better linkage (not that you would notice) and the clutch was a twin plate affair that took a couple of miles to acclimatise to (but which felt superb after familiarisation). The steering was the best of any car I have experienced and the road presence was awesome (I think because the car is made in Norfolk the people here love the car and don't mind pulling over to let one by!). However, the biggest disappointment was the engine, no character, and considering it is a twin turbo, no torque to speak of (only 295 lb ft). You had to rev the thing like a normally aspirated car and it doesn't come "on cam" until 4000 revs and then it hits a severe rev cut at 7000. Don't be fooled by the speedo as well, cruising at 100mph I couldn't work out how come everyone else was speeding and matching my speed! Being the "doubting Thomas" type, I got a mate to put his car up against it and the speedo was over reading by 12mph at an indicated 100mph compared to his! Also we found that a 310bhp Cossie could stay level with the Esprit until 135mph (and I mean side by side not giving an inch), whereby the superior aerodynamics enabled the Esprit to creap ahead and then pull away. A 350bhp Cossie would walk all over it.... This being the fact that it is an almost 1500kg car unless you go for the light weight version (V8S) which is 75kg less or the Esprit 350 which is another 75kg lighter again than the V8S.
However, I did get up early on the Sunday morning and after three attempts (didn't want to pass any cars at that speed, so had to wait for empty road!) finally maxed the car out and hit the rev limit in top (an indicated 185mph!). When the dealer came to pick up the car (he took the S4 to drive back in on the Saturday), I commented on the minimal difference in performance between the V8 and the S4 and he remarked that our S4 was the quickest he had ever driven (but he would say that!). I also asked if it was "sick" because of the abuse, he took me out in it and said that it felt fine to him and just commented that our car was an extremely good example of the bread and I wasn't allowing a fair comparison. I also quizzed him about the speedo, and he seemed to go all embarrassed and said "well it impresses the customers to see that speed on the clock"!. Obviously it made sense to keep the S4, as the trade up was going to cost £30k for a new one!

Anyway, the point that I am trying to make is that you should try the S4S, as it has all the good bits on and is £10k less than the V8, so if the performance difference is not that great, you may want to save yourself a tidy sum. And that blue and those split rims do look awesome (plus at only 14k miles it is only just run in!).

Have fun today.
Best regards
Mike

SDB

Hi Mike

Thanks again for all the info, etc.

Considering a BMW was only a temporary glitch in my self respect circuits!!

I think I will take your advice. I don't have 40K to just throw away so I am going to test drive the S4S as well today to see back-to-back what the differences are.

I think it is likely that the V8 you drove could have been quite poorly or at least tired after being absolutely nailed every mile it had lived. But I also think it is important to be sure that the extra £10K (which is a considerable amount of money) is being wisely spent.

Also, you mentioned that a 315BHP (or similar) Cossie could stay with it in a straight line. That's fine by me. As far as I'm concerned, that is enough power for now. What you get with the Lotus is a fabulous image as well.

I think I am also going to drive a couple of TVR's today also. I've driven maybe 15 TVR's but none on the road. I have been told that the reliability problems only appeared in the earlier cars or the high milage ones. Anyone know if this is true?

Cheers

Simon

SDB

OK ... Update ...

I went to TVR in Melton Mowbray today. They were extremely helpful and courteous, which puts them well above BMW straight away.

Drove a 4.0 Chimaera and a 5.0 Cerbera. Not impressed at all to be honest. Yes, very fast, very very very torquey, beautiful to look at, comfortable, but the driving experience on a bumpy greasey road was nothing short of nerveracking (sp?).

They're not kidding when they call them fair weather cars. I love a bit of RWD tail happiness more than anyone, but these required constant concentration to keep FROM going sideways. I really am not adverse to powerslides etc, I love them but there was no pleasure involved in driving these cars at all.

I ran out of time and couldn't get to Lotus in the end, but will go tomorrow and drive the S4S and the V8, but....

If they aren't spectacular then I am astounded to be saying this (after all I have said in this thread)...

I am going to start seriously considering a monster Impreza instead!!!

I know, I know.. but it was such a relief to get back into my Scoob after the hour or so I spent driving the TVR's that I thought.. 'I could put up with not having the looks of the Lotus'.

I think it may come back to the fact that after all is said and done, I'm an enthusiastic driver and love to chuck 'em around a bit.

We shall see... I really hope the Lotus isn't as much of a dissapointment as the TVR.

Cheers

Simon

Feenz

GO ON... BUT IT!!!
OK so the TVR was a bag of soiled undergarments, but the thing with a Lotus, is if you squint your eyes it looks exactly like a Lotus.. Simon.. It looked fantastic!
OK, its a big wad of crinkley stuff, but if you buy the type R, you'll only spend the same amount of money making look sexy. BUT THE LOTUS IS ALREADY A LOTUS!!

OK.. not the best argument in the world, but I just thought it looked sooo sexy!!

NickF

I know BMW dealers are a wee bit on the arrogant side, and the drivers often fail to use the cars to even 50% of their abilities ..... despite this, the Z3M would be high up my list. As would a 3 year old M5, especially with modded suspension. Beautiful build quality, reasonable depreciation (Z3M still in big demand, M5 over the worst of it, access to a large dealer network.

Any new Impreza will only be a marginal improvement over your current one, rather than a breath of fresh air. A few years ago (on a whim)I bought a 205 1.9GTI after several years away from my previous 2. Great car, but it just doesn't stick in my memory the way the first two did.

SDB

Feenz.. hello mate and LOL...

For those of you who don't know.. Feenz is a mate of mine and used to be my co-driver until he ran out of underpants to fill!!

NickF
I know... I really considered the Z3M but.. IMHO it has nothing more than the Lotus and doesn't look as nice or go as fast. Plus dealing with those plonkers would just wind me up. M5.. yeah, this is more of a tough decision. I love M5's, I really do, but I would want something like an Elise as well. They are very fast and chuckable for their size, but I want something which is just very fast and chuckable (regardless of size).

I think I will go and test drive an M5 though to be honest, so thanks for the suggestion.

Cheers guys and thanks for all the interest and info.

Simon

Nightmare

Z3M????? oh please.... I though you wanted a car that really handled!!!! ha ha

I think Mikes points about the S4s are absolutely spot on... Mike - ALL demonstrators have the speedos set wrongly - its so that people thrash them less than they think they're thrashing them if you see what I mean. Seriously though - a healthly V8-GT should easily kick your S4s butt.... should...

Cant stand the over servoed power-sterring on the TVR personally - I like to know exactly where my wheels are pointing!

SDB

OK.. Latest Update..

Been to Kings Lotus today to drive the Esprit's. I wanted to drive the V8 I mentioned earlier and also the S4S as suggested by my Lotus advisor!!

Unfortunately the V8 had a mis-fire (apparantly) after being stood in the showroom for 3 months???? But the Blue S4S was ready to go.

The salesman (actually quite a sound guy, believe it or not!) took me up the road in it first to warm it up no doubt. It did take quite a while to get it warm and it cut out a few times for the first couple of minutes (is this normal).

He pulled over and let me drive...

I pulled away from the layby went ten yards to a round about and turned left and instantly burst out laughing!!

WOW WOW WOW !!!!!

Lotus REALLY know how to build a sports car. I was really expecting to be dissapointed after my experience with TVR yesterday but MY GOD!!! The power was good but not overwhelming or anything (enough) but the steering and ride were nothing short of perfection!! I don't use that word lightly.

It was the old interior, but immaculate and still very nice. Blue with lovely OZ split rims. AND it was £11K cheaper than the V8.

I am going back tomorrow to test drive the V8 but now know that I would be more than happy with the S4S. I know.. I know..

This is the car I drove today:-

Nightmare

okay Simon - its YOUR fault about the page wrapping! think it must be due to those big long link addresses you've been putting in .....*grrr*

1) Gorgeous gorgeous colour. If I got and Elise or Esprit thats the colour Id go for

2) Dont get too hung up on the warranty business..... Dont listen to a god damn thing the sales staff tell you - read it carefully first. You will, for £386 a year, be able to buy a Sterling mechanical warranty for your car after it goes out of Lotus warranty. The things which always go on these cars are wear and tear items - which nothing will save you from.... The engine, even on my 89 turbo, which Ive done just over 23K miles on in 2 years is absolutely bomb proof (fingers crossed).
11K buys a lot of insurance, tyres, servicing and petrol......

I would not expect it to cut out - as the S4s should have an auto choke (unlike mine). They arent great when cold (though starting is never a problem) I would recommend, should you buy it, that you let it warm up for at least 2 - 3 mins each morning beore even moving it, and then keep revs very low till totally warm. Thats what I do, and I still have a turbo!

Tell garage that you will only buy it if they perform the 36000 mile (cam belt change) service. They will probably um and ah - but be firm. It would cost you about a grand, but the majority of that is labour - so actually less cost to them than they will let on. It will save you lots of potential troubles. Even though its only done 14K miles, Id still make sure personally....

hmm - hope this is in some way helpful

Night

SDB

Thanks Night, you've been so helpful!

One question though..
Why so keen on the 36,000 mile service? Surely they will say it is far too low mileage to even think about it?

I think I am going to buy it though!

I would be 'saving' a shed of cash compared to what I was willing to spend, so I can tell the missus I was being sensible!! Also, I will be more than happy with it, in fact thrilled, and I can look forward to owning a V8 next maybe?

The only bone of contention for me is the older interior (but I'm not that bothered) and the cutting out thing.

What can I do to make sure their is no mechanical problem looming?

Cheers

Simon

SDB

Oh, yeah and..

Sorry about the word wrap thing

It's been winding me up as well. Though I think you should chill out a bit !!

Mike Rainbird

Dear Simon,
None of the Lotus Esprits that I know of have LSD. However, I wasn't sure if the Sport 350, Sport 300 (or the S4S which has all the suspension / brake components off the Sport 300) might have, due to their overtly "sporting" nature (as in aimed more at the track-day type market). With regard to the bollocks sprouted by the dealer, I would imagine it should have gone more like "We don't do an LSD as Renault never did one on their 25, which is what the rear differential is a derivative of....!" And just to really upset you, the switch gear / door handles are Vauxhall (but the window switches work the opposite way round to how they do in the GM cars - very confusing!), the wing mirrors are Citroen and the rear lights are old shape Toyata Celica (with the Toyota bit still left stamped on them!). Still looks cool as f$%k though!
LOL
Mike
PS Happy motoring. Please bring it along to the Group B track days that will be at Snetterton this year, so you can put it through it's paces....

Mike Rainbird

Dear Simon,
I hate to admit it (as much as HE does !), but Nightmare is right about the service. If you re-read my comments previously, the cam belt MUST be changed every three years or every 36,000 miles - WHICHEVER comes first....

With regard to the cutting out, if it does this when first started, don't worry. For some reason the cold start system is temperemental and doesn't always catch first turn of the key (don't know why). You know when it does, as the revs pick up to around 1500 at cold idle, whereas if it doesn't it just stalls (taking two or three starts to get it to come in). This only happens if the car has been standing for any length of time.

Also the price of the S4S is VERY good, I popped in to our local dealer to see what they had in, and apart from the usual Elises they had two S4s, one that is Norfolk Mustard on an 'L' and 28k miles that they were selling at the end of '98 when I test drove the V8 (YES, it's still there!) which was up for £27k (now you know why!) and a red one on an 'M' that I couldn't see the price of, but imagine would probably be around the same price depending on mileage - so as you can see that S4S is a bargin (or our local dealer is a rip-off merchant!)....

The only thing I don't know about the S4S is the back end. The S4s DO NOT have an LSD, but I don't know about the S4S, as it had loads of suspension upgrades etc in-line with the special Sport 300, and an LSD may be one of them - could you find out and let me know?
Best regards
Mike
PS (I keep looking at the photo of the S4S and drooling!)

SDB

Morning Chaps

OK, spoke about the Cam Belt Service and it was done about 18 months ago. It has also had a few services in between. Is this OK?

The dealer said that the S4S and the V8 have no LSD. This seems strange to me but was told it was the factory's view that the resulting driving ability requirements would become unacceptable for the road, due to the torque and power output of the engine. Does this sound right?

One more Question..
The only problem I had with the car was the feel of the brakes. You may know I have a bit of an obsession with brakes. I love then almost as much as lots of power. The brakes felt very spongy. The pedal was hard but little was happening until you really stood on them. Is this normal and can anything be done to sort it? Also what are they like when they get hot in terms of brake fade and warping disks?

Cheers

Simon

Mike Rainbird

Dear Simon,
If the S4S has the APs on, then these will probably be running DOT 5.1 fluid. This has a high "boiling" point, but the higher grade fluid you go the more prone it is to absorbing moisture. This can then boil when used hard, which means the fluid becomes compressible giving the same effect as having loads of air in the system (spongy pedal). Obviously because of this it should be changed at least every two years, so I would insist that this is done and hopefully it will change the feel of the brakes to something you are happy with. I have not heard of a set of 330mm discs from AP warping, but the cross-drilled ones do crack (from my own experience!), but the rotors can be replaced relatively cheaply.

Sorry I forgot to mention anout the LSD until the last moment - I thought you would want to know though....
Best regards
Mike

Nightmare

Another quick thing - seeing as how you're v keen - make sure you get at least a grand knocked off the price. Im sure this is just telling granny to suck eggs, but I didnt barter for my first car (was scared ) yet have got quite a lot off the subsequent ones.... any dealer has at least 1 - 3 K on top of the markup they expect to get on a car of this sort....

There is no possible way of guaranteeing you have no mechanical hell on the horizon. If the garage is well respected, their reputaion should give you at least a year of 'fixed out of the goodness of our not wanting to appear on watchdog'. Personally, if you can be bothered, I would do the following.

Once its bought, run it every day, at low revs, just getting everything back to go again (dunno how long its been in show room) The a couple of longish, reasonably high rev motorway type drives. Then book it into another main Lotus dealer for a full check. This will prolly cost you a bit, but they will find anything looming (which obviously your dealer wont mention) which your dealer should then put right....hopefully!

Servicing is probably okay then - but if they wont take any money off, replace the brake fluid or do any service, I would be tempted to walk away...though it does look gorgeous...

SDB

Thanks Mike

Which Esprit's have LSD's?

Cheers

Simon

SDB

Thanks Night..

I am about to make a deal with them and have asked them to offer me something for my car in part ex. They are phoning round at the moment.

What should I ask for?

93 WRX, no history appart from the last 10 months I have owned it.
KONI's
Uprated Disks and pads
Chipped to 283BHP (Rolling Road Confirmed)
Induction Kit
Silver
Gold Wheels
New Tyres
Bodywork is good but slight surface rust in a small bit near the filler cap due to petrol pump rubbing.
73K miles
Recent gear box bearings

Cheers

Simon

johnfelstead

Simon, i will bring you some piccies to look at on sunday of the Esprit V8 i built in 1992 to now (i.e. constant development).

It has a 5Litre NA V8(420BHP), F1 gearbox, F2(F3000) brakes and suspension, F1 rad, F1 rear wing, F3000 tyres and weighs 700Kg.

Not much use as a road car but mega race car.

p.s. Not 1 component is lotus, just looks like one with spaceframe chassis.

cheers

john

Nightmare

4 million pounds
+ VAT