stilover

PistonHeads Headlines

280BHP & FWD

"We want the RS to beat the Evo & Impreza" they said in early statement.

Think they shot themselves in the foot here. Well done Ford.

Name taken off list.

Obviously Ford don't need my money.

And what do Mitsubishi do?
4WD Hatch. PistonHeads Headlines

Wait for the FQ editions


Well done Ford. Fcukwits

This won't sell as you can get an ST to 280bhp no problem.
So they'll say there is no market for the RS brand.

There is, we just want 4WD.

Spec'c'57

iTrader: (1)

GC8WRX

4wd and 300/300, make it fairly light and it would sell bucketloads if priced competitively!

RB5SCOTT

They're saving the 4wd for the Cosworth

EddScott

See, I told ye!

A lad I race RC cars with works with Ford prototypes and he told me at Christmas they had signed the design off and it was FWD.

Blueblaster

I think you should all wait and see. The last Focus RS was a great car and there is a lot more to making a good car than 4wd and 300bhp. With the LSD and Ford's genuine talent for producing great front wheel drive cars this could turn out to be special. Let's face it, if the had done 4wd and 300bhp it would have weighed 100kg more and would probably have been slower and less nimble. If Ford keep supply limited I reckon this could be just like the previous RS in that the residuals will be so good that the fuel economy doesn't matter. It could be the perfect alternative to fuel efficiency for saving money.

Give it a chance.

Dream Weaver

I really don't care whether it is FWD or 4WD, I have an ST with close on 280bhp and it can take more yet, traction isn't an issue IMO.

For me it will come down to looks, and what extra toys it has - if it looks sufficiently nicer then my ST and has the extra toys I would expect then I will be tempted to buy one.

People put far too much emphasis on 4WD - didn't the new Impreza get beaten by a Golf GTI on a recent show, Fifth Gear maybe? It beat the WRX by 1 second, so what is the problem.

As your name comes off the list, I may put mine on but I doubt very much Ford will lose any sleep over it.

Shark Man

Your right - anyway, 4wd is boring - too much traction!

They should have made it RWD

lozgti

I get confused with Fords sporting variants.

Think it would have been easier if they just had RS and ditched ST

In fact when did ST come in and what does it mean?

The Chief

I agree with the poster, Ford really has fecked up big time with this. they should have made it 300bhp and 4wd.

Dont get me wrong some FWD cars are very good and chassis design has never been as goodm i drove a VXR Astra round Oulton Park and was seriosuly impressed but.... no matter how good a fwd chassis is or how good your electronic wizardry is you cannot escape the laws of physics with traction and weight transfer under acceleration and there is only so much power that you can utilize with fwd.

Ford have missed a golden opportunity here to take the fight to the EVO (not the Subaru because i think Subaru have f**ked up with the new design but thats another story) and made an awesome AWD point to point supercar.

Shame really

Dream Weaver

I don't think Ford have dropped the ball IMO. 4WD and 300bhp would probably have taken it into the top band for VED where the Evo and Impreza live, couple that with higher running costs and the Focus makes sense, and not everyone wants ultimate traction, or will be driving like a rally star.

As sharkman says, 4WD is very boring and I always found RWD hard work as well myself, I am happy with FWD.

It will be aimed at people like me, who want a decent performance car but not something that costs the earth to run, hence why I bought the Focus recently instead of an STI - running costs difference is over £2k a year which over 5 years buys another car!!

And bear in mind that Ford never really make any money on sporting vehicles, they make all their cash selling std Foci to families, any RS variant is just a publicity operation IMO.

As with the new Impreza, as one enthusiast leaves the Subaru fold in a big hissy fit, chucking toys from pram, a new customer joins as they like whats on offer

I have no doubt the RS will be a good car, whether it will be worth £25k remains to be seen.

Dream Weaver

In the 70's they would have said 100bhp was the limit with FWD, 80s it went up to 150bhp, 90's it was approaching 200bhp and currently FWD cars can easily handle 300bhp so I don't believe there is a limit.

Yes in the wet a high powered FWD car can struggle, but anyone that pushes on in the wet on public roads is a bit of a ned anyway.

I thought my ST would be undriveable with its current power but its fine, traction is rearely lost. Even my 205 with higher PTW ratio was fine in the dry (and even in the wet at Oulton).

You can't get the same drive out of tight bends with FWD or from a launched standing start but that is where the 4WD advantage ends IMO, you just drive differently.

I have no doubt my 271bhp ST could keep up with a similar powered Impreza cross country.

The Chief

I've no doubt that ST's are a very good car, i think 3 people in the Smacs have them now and they are impressed and like i said i was geuinely impressed how composed an Astra VXR was at Oulton park recently - it rearranged my way of thinking that a Scoob is unbeatable but i just think that 250-260bhp+ through the front wheels will start to affect driveability and outright performance where AWD would have been quicker in certain areas.

Dream Weaver

I think you are right when talking of driving towards the limit where 4WD may get you an advantage, but for 95% of potential buyers they will just want something that is quick and nice to drive, own and run.

barndogg

Now that would be fun!!!!!

300bhp/ton

I reckon they have dropped the ball, just not recently.

Look at how many Impreza's are on the road, notice most are turbo ones.

Think back at the last five Miti Lancers you saw on the road, where they the low spec model or the Evo?

Ever been to the WRC Rally? Specifically the special stage in the Millenium Stadium? There is simply a sea of 4wd rally want-a-be's.

I'm not saying the Focus RS wasn't good or than the ST isn't a fab car, because quite honestly they are.

But what the hell is the point of promoting a 4wd turbo charged monster via the WRC and then not have anything to offer the punters in the show room?

Citreon and Peuget and Skoda are even worse. Why do they bother rallying at all? Seeing Sebastion Leob winning doesn't insprie me to go and buy a cheapo Saxo being as there is no road legal performance version offered.

Seriously how many sales has Ford lost on due to not offering a real performance car for the UK and European markets?

In the US they sell a 210bhp V6 Mustang, rising to 300bhp for the regular GT and 500bhp for the range topper. Performance cars in anyones sense (although most in the UK shun them for no reason based on logic...)

But that aside why would many car enthusiasts bother buying a Ford in this modern day and age?

Both GM and Ford are in pretty dire financial trouble, maybe it has something to do with not producing a model range that fits what customer expect. BMW 3 Series outsell Ford Mondeos for example.

Sure the ST Focus is nice, but it looks fairly bland and apart from poke it offers little as a standard car which can't be topped by purchasing another make of car.

300bhp/ton

Define a limit?

The Vauxhall VXR certainly appears to suffer massive torque steer, the Alfa 146 GTV6 eats front tyres.

Sure as tyres, gearing, electronic management and traction control and better transmissions systems are used you can keep upping the anti.

In the states there are plenty of Neon SRT4’s and turbo charged Civics putting down 400fwhp numbers. But it doesn’t mean that they can really handle it though.

+ 1

One has to wonder how much of that is down to electronics though. Even the lowly 1.7 Puma had a torque management setting limiting the amount of power in 1st and 2nd. It adds to the driveability but to the strictest letter can it still be claimed to be making the same power under such circumstances.

Anyhow I digress, as I’m sure from A – B the ST is stupidly fast in almost any circumstance.

True, but what about the fun factor?

FWD may be effective and efficient, but its also pretty boring compared to RWD.

I believe it would.

Moley

iTrader: (9)

I think the LSD in the RS will make the FWD a lot more useable than the VRX.

It might have let some people down being FWD....but it looks stunning!!!
And according to those who slate the new STI due it's looks, thats what counts.

lozgti

So (had to look it up)

ST sports Technology,RS Rally sport.

Odd

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

ST was where they did drop a nut... should have used the XR badge like they used to. Massive retro market opportunity lost.

5t.

Dream Weaver

They still use XR in oz, the ST is called the Focus XR5.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

I know, just not here though. Massive sales opportunity, look at all the retro stuff that sells because people had one or wanted one when they were younger... New Beetle, Mini Cooper, Fiat 500 etc etc.

An XR fiesta would have sold well and left the door open for RS and the much talked about (hoped for) Cosworth versions.

5t.

Dream Weaver

I would say it's pretty equal where I live between turbo and none, lots of farmers you see.

Same as above, I do see quite a lot of std Lancers and I always think they look crap, people buy them though.

I would imagein the stats would be higher than we (the enthusiasts) think for sales of std lower spec cars by old chaps trying to emulate rally heroes they see on the telly, middle aged family man sees the Citroen C4 rallying so goes and buys the sports version and believe he is a rally driver.

Probably not lost many sales - car enthusiasts are a niche market and we don't make up a huge amount of profitability for car manufacturers as we tend to mod, and do work ourselves.

As for real performance car, they offer the Focus ST which is equal to any other sports offering, if not better than most. Same can be said about the Golf GTI, Leon Cupra etc - mainstream manufacturers offering hot variants of shopping cars for not much money - it's a winning formula.

Quick, enjoyable, look good, cheap to run and insure, practical, the list goes on? Just because I am a car enthusiast, doesn't mean I want to tear **** around every single road on my own, getting my full quota of "traction". The modern performance car needs to double as a work horse, tip car, family car etc etc - todays hot hatches are superb for that purpose.

You sure about that stat?

They are the best looking hatch out there IMO, although most of the modern breed look good as well - Leon, Civic, Golf all nice looking motors and I would hardly call them bland.

Forgive me, but I prefer subtle mods and looks to the whaletail days of the 80's - give me a modern Focus ST over an EsCos any day of the week.

As for offering little as a std car, what? Performance, comfot, looks, running costs, practicality, I'm not saying its the only car to offer that but I don't understand your comments on that point.

Please tell me this is not building up to the Camaro being offered as an alternative again??

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Advocate on this one - i remember Clarkson claimed that to be the case when he reviewed the new Mondeo. Said it was better than the 3 series and more exclusive. However, the truth may be different, it is Clarkson.

5t.

stilover

You sure?

Just found this gem on Pistonheads.
I've said that if the new Focus RS was FWD, I'd look at finding & possibly buying the mint'est Escort Cosworth I could find.

Bruche Motors Ltd : Ford Escort RS Cosworth Large Turbo

Debating whether to take a day off work next week for a look.
Shame it hasn't got leather interior. I'd also prefer the small Turbo model, but in this condition........

300bhp/ton

Well I admit we live in different parts of the country, but I am quite surprised.

I’ve been counting Impreza’s over the last week or so on my to and from work (circa 50 miles). On average I see 4 or 5 Impreza tubro’s a day. I see the occasional Legacy and Forester too, but so far I haven’t seen more than one or two non turbo Impreza’s, unless they’ve been made to look like a turbo.

Also I remember a stat from years back (probably ~2000), think it was in Autocar or similar. That Subaru although only having sold the Impreza turbo in the UK for a year less than the non turbo variants had sold nearly double the amount.

Not sure of the validity of this and I don’t have the mag anymore to check.

But the same goes for the Lancer, think I’ve seen more Evo X’s on the road than I have regular Lancer’s period. At least in the last 3 or 4 months.

It would be interesting to see some sales figures.

Maybe I didn’t explain.

When at the WRC event there are literally hundreds of Scooby’s and Evo’s. So if Ford (or any of the others) offered a similar car how many less Scoobys & Evo’s would there have been?

There must be sales up for grab else the market wouldn’t exist in the first place for Subaru.


Only a niche of niche modify. Many are happy to stick with a stock vehicle. You just don’t see those kinds of people on forums like this as a rule.

But its not that, how many people wanted, and I mean really wanted an Impreza Turbo but couldn’t afford either it or the running costs? So decided to buy the 1.8 or 2.0 non turbo version instead.

Judging by the number of turbo look-alikes clogging up the search results in Autotrader, quite a few.

I’m sorry I just don’t see it that way.

Don’t get me wrong, its not that it isn’t a nice car, because it is. But I don’t want FWD, no matter how well its been employed.

I’ve driven and owned a fair variance or vehicles and from a performance aspect it has to be RWD or 4WD.

You don’t see many fwd Ferrari’s or Porsche’s? (And yes I know price difference, but you know that isn’t what I meant )

A winning formula it is – no argument.

But I don’t consider them real performance cars either. They certainly fall in a category below the Evo and Impreza (IMO). And if I was looking for a new car equivalent to the STI a Golf simply wouldn’t even be thought of, let alone considered.

I agree. But offering a model slightly above of higher spec wouldn’t detract from that.

I’m just saying I think Ford and others are leaving potential sales on the table. I mean how long did it take them to release the Focus RS (the previous one) They could have probably sold 10 times as many had they had their act together.

Pretty sure yeah.

A few years back Autocar ran an article on it with a nice blue and red graph if memory serves.


Umm well I guess its personal. Personally I preferred the clean cut lines of the previous Focus better. This one looks a bit flabby and disjointed. Even the WRC is fairly bland and ugly.

So while the ST looks good for a Focus I’m not so sure when compared to other cars out there. Apart from the wheels and chrome exhaust trim they look pretty much like any other Focus and I’m willing to bet that if you removed these two items most of “Jo Public” would have a hard time telling an ST from an LX.

Nah they all look like people carriers

Having said that, I really don’t think much of the new Impreza either. The STI variant looks aggressive, but it looks like the styling is aimed at a 16 year old wanting their first car.

The Classic Impreza on the other hand was a great looking car – for what it was. Ok it wasn’t pretty, but it had a more mature grown up sense of occasion. Something you’d drive once you’d left college, got a job and realised a bit more about life. The bug eye, blob and hawk all portray this rather well as have the Evo’s, the Sierra Cossie and to an extent even the Escort Cossie (be it to a lesser degree).

But each to their own

Yeah but that’s the ST model. The top line RS should be more exciting visually and specification wise IMO.

But that aside, what about the people who want that something different. And no it’s not an 80’s thing. Go back in time and look at the sports and performance cars of the day and they where as a rule striking to look at, such as an Austin Healey, Jaguar E-Type, Jensen Interceptor, Triumph GT6, Triumph TR range, MGA, MGB GT, Nissan Skyline, Toyota GT4, Nissan 200SX, Nissan 300ZX, etc.

For the price new it is good value. But in all honesty the Astra VXR looks more exciting than the ST, although it still doesn’t wow either.

But as a “performance car” I feel the ST is rather – bland. Park it in a car park with 200 other cars and it’ll disappear.

Park it in the car park at Silverstone on GP day and it’ll get hardly a look.

Sure it’s fast. But it ain’t that fast.

But it can’t offer the thrills of a rwd car, no powersliding, no wheel spinning worth doing in front of any one.

HEY stop!

I’m sounding rather negative and I’m sorry. It’s not that it’s not a good car because it is. It just doesn’t get the juices flowing. The ST isn’t the type of car you’ll see on a poster in a young boys bedroom. Yet in many ways it can’t offer the sideways rwd pleasures of a 95bhp MGB GT. And for some, i.e. me, it’s enough to say “sorry Mr Ford, but you sell nothing in the UK that I want to own, let alone pay for”.

MooseRacer

I'm surprised about the Puma having torque limiter - first i've ever heard of that and for something that only produced 120 odd bhp seems ridiculous.

Are you sure they did?

stilover

And me. My first 3 cars were all Fords. When I went for my 4th (puma) they wanted book price (not even a penny off) and offered me below book price on my trade-in. Guy even told me that. Want one? Pay for it.

Bought a Peugeot 106GTI instead. Very pleased I did too.

When I came to trade the 106 in, what did Ford have to offer me? Fiesta 1.6Si or a Focus 2.0 Zetec. Not a chance.

Bought a Renault Clio 172 MkII.

Yes I bought the Focus RS after that (The first Ford I'd wanted in a long time) but the car was flawed. It needed 4WD. As a result of getting annoyed of wrestling a FWD car about.........

What did Ford offer as an alternative? Nothing.

I wanted 4WD, so bought the Impreza.

When I come to trade in the Impreza, what has Ford got to offer me? A warmed up ST with an RS badge on the back. Sorry, but no. So what is my choice for a 4WD fast car?

Subaru, Mitsubishi, VW, Audi. Or as my post above.... the last RS Ford that the people Really wanted...... a mint Escort Cosworth

Richard.B

I've just been thinking about this on the RS thing, and Really thinking about it, there is only ever been one real 4wd RS, which was the focus. ALL the other RS' before it were 2wd, whether it be FWD (Fiesta's and the mk3/4 escort, or RWD with the MK1/2 Escorts.

The 4WD RS' where left to Cosworth, with the Sierra's (apart from the rather special Hatchback and the RS500).

So as to the statement of "The death of the Ford RS". It's not really the death of the Ford RS. It's just following the routes of its ancestors

markymark34

There has been a 4WD focus? Ive seriously missed something!
Escort Cosworth and Sierra Cosworth 4WD are the ones i know!
I think the point of the thread was that an RS version has always been special.
EG 4WD or RWD and just had something extra over the normal hot hatches. The new Focus RS doesnt really (or so we are lead to believe).