Jamesemt

This has been bugging me for years, and I've never been able to find an answer.

Say you are used to a standard classic Scoob level of power. How much power/illusion of power with torque would be needed to feel breath takingly quick - like the first time you drove anything with a real kick.

Some might laugh at this, but at 18 I went from a 1L Micra to a Metro Turbo and it felt monstrously fast, like it ran away with you when you when you went to full throttle. Now I know every car since would run rings around it, but I've grown accustomed to the extra power.

How much power would be needed when used to 200bhp, to feel like there was enough power to run away with you, or do you reprogram your brain with perfomance cars, so it would never happen? Maybe because I did it in stages, I've never driven anything and thought 'Oh my god' (like I did driving the Metro - horrible, horrible car BTW). Only 'that's got a bit of a kick'.(that includes driving my mates 350bhp Scoob, which did feel rather good). Oh, and I'm talking about realistic speeds under a ton, second gear power etc.

The Chief

Your car might feel quick but it will never be enough,

For instance when i had my Scoob is was pushing out 260bhp, and punched far above its weight and kept with far more serious machinary (on acceleration anyway) It may have felt quick but i got used to it.

When i took people in my car they were like '**** me this is quick' I always remember once picking the GF and her folks up from the airport once and i give it some down the slip road whilst joing the Motorway, even though we were 5 up, everyone in the car gasped except me - My GF asked me nicely to slow down I had a comment of 'bloody hell the plane felt like this when it took off'

Take Big bikes for instance, my buddy has a CBR 600 and would waste 99% of scoobs, we use dto go out and it was like hitting reverse he came past me that fast, yet he keeps harping on how it aint fast enough.

Some big bikes are over 1000bhp per ton, and to some nutters it aint enough.

But if you want a nice figure people reckon a 400bhp Scoob is plenty enough for the road.

The Chief

However a low powered car can feel quick, A 160bhp Westie will feel rapid, plus will also give a greater sensation of speed due to you being out in the elements, A work collegue owns a V8 Dax Rush and thqat has 250ish bhp and i have drove that and it was like f*** me this is quick.

NACRO

Over 250bhp/ton.

Steve vRS

My Octavia TDi vRS feels very quick. It's the sudden torque when you accelerate that gives the illusion. It feels a lot faster than it is but saying that, it's no slouch!

Steve

Jamesemt

How do I work out my power to weight?

I've found something on the net which gives me:

5.885 kg/bhp

How do I get bhp per tonne from that?

Jamesemt

Exactly why I went back to diesel - Got a 200bhp Diesel Cupra which is currently a nice compromise (at 200bhp/320lb/ft)

The Chief

Go onto LetsTorqueBHP - Home

it has an online calculator

Jamesemt

Cheers - 172bhp/tonne. That's quite respectable...

Interestingly, the Metro had about 109bhp/tonne

and my old 205 GTI Mi had 205bhp/tonne...yikes!!

My previous car was a 2003 WRX in similar spec to the chief's, which was pushing around 190bhp/tonne which explains why the Ibiza didn't feel massively slower (shed loads more toque gave the illusion that it was far faster).

malc_gsi

I got into my MY53 STi with PPP from a Vectra Gsi (With a 3.0 MV6 transplant, 233BHP) and I was blown away, I still get that feeling when I get the chance to do some good driving.

I had the opportunity to drive my old Vec 7 months after I sold it and I was pretty impressed with the way the power is delivered, bags of low down torque instantly, without waiting for the turbo to spool, completely different animal.

Andy M3

My first time I drove a 'fast' car was about 10 year's ago - the day my mate bought a 106 GTI and **** me it was ridiculously fast. Today they are very capable hatch's but the bar has moved since then. I now drive a 300+hp Volvo V70R. Nice sensible family car in my eyes, some think it is a rocket ship???

I think it is near 200hp / tonne, but I would say you need 200 lb/ft per tonne to 'feel' fast?

Shark Man

As the Clio advert said, I think to feel fast, it's about how close your derriere is to the ground: Thus:

2stroke gear kart.

125cc, about 30bhp and probably tops out at 100mph. But my god, it feels like 300mph

billythekid

Really does depend what you are used too and also what enviroment you are driving the car in. For example, driving a 400bhp/ton Caterham on a big open airfield does not feel that fast - but down a narrow tree lined B road it feels **** your pants fast.

IMHO for road use >300/ton is a good figure to aim for.

500bhp/ton is the magic number for me though.

Norman Dog

iTrader: (1)

I've owned a few cars that "felt" fast but aren't really - MG Metro, Ford XR3i and Corsa SRi, fact is any car you own doesn't seem that quick after you've had it a while.

As soon as I get the spare cash together my Scoob is getting a Sports cat & remap as it no longer feels that quick anymore.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

My Saab feels alright now its been remapped to 250 bhp, its plenty quick enough for most situations, the speedo moves pretty quickly and you are soon doing a tonne, however I want a quicker car, one where you cant generally use all the power on the road or you bottle out before your foot gets all the way too the floor.

I drove my Aunties 1.0 Micra the other day, she said it felt hesitant and sluggish in third and fourth gear, I reported back that all was well with the car but it was sluggish and slow in all gears !

So it depends where you are coming from, my grandad is used to his Metro, few years back I took my dignified, well spoken and polite grandad for a spin in my T5, I asked him if he wanted me to boot it and he said to give it all its got, he just went "F*cking Hell".

I want a car that rather than making passengers remark on the brisk acceleration they should just go very quiet and wide eyed.

markymark34

For me a diesel will never feel really quick due to its controlled power delivery (and i have exprience, i owned a 265bhp 330d) Its one of the reasons i went back to a subaru STI. The kick you get. I think 350bhp would be enough to scare me at the moment. I drove a 380bhp evo and it was astoundingly quick but my standard STI feels a little slow now as im used to it.

Again depends what your used to. Friend bought an octavia Vrs and i was laughing as he thought it was quick, but he came from a corsa 1L so i guess it would feel quick.

Jamesemt

Mega torque then!!

To kind of answer my own question, I reckon 500bhp is what I need...lol...thinking maybe a RWD Skyline. Just dreaming at present - am a couple of years away from having the cash for a garage toy.

Jamesemt

I can appreciate what you are saying, and I never said a Diesel would feel mentally fast - I only stated for me currently it is a nice compromise (and not really slower than my modded WRX, but with 41mpg versus 26mpg). Oh, and I think mine would have the edge on a 330d BM

Yep for proper power, petrol is the way forward (as a toy for me, couldn't run a petrol as a daily driver anymore).

billythekid

For me if I wanted a super grunt machine it would have to be a blown V8, mabye a cheap C5 Corvette with twin turbos - 600 - 700bhp with torque to match... low Cd and plenty of top end on the gearbox to see 180mph +.

Jamesemt

I was a little underwhelmed by them too, but can understand why so many people mod them. The engine seemed suffocated on the example I drove, like it was desperate for an exhaust and filter...

mg driver

agreed.
The bhp number is irrelevant ,unless your a chav down at mac d's car park.

richs2891

Have to agree with The Chief here, some thing along the lines of a Catherham or a Westfield, will always feel fast dues to its low weight, low to the ground and generally open top ! Wish I could justify a Catherham Superlight R400 at the moment !

Richard

RobEvo5

iTrader: (9)

Its all about Torque and power to weight. If your running a 200bhp UK scoob, your going to need something fairly special to give you the kick your looking for.

A UK classic scoob with smaller turbo and little lag is still in my opinion a great day to day car that is quick and gives a thump in the back. STI's, mildly tunned scoobs and the like are quicker but just in a different power range and are not going to blow you away.

A 2.5ltr 20g classic set up well and running a real 400/400 would put the smile back on your face. Alternatively you have to look elsewhere and away from scoobs.

My last car was a 240bhp Turbo MX5, and it felt extremley quick with short gearing instant spooling and breaking traction without even trying. If felt quick but because it was so twitchy with short gears, and really struggled putting down the power, my current M3 Evo would probably wipe the floor with it, but the M3 don't feel even half as quick.

My brothers early 'W' reg 911 turbo feels bonkers quick to me and thats currently running 600bhp and 550ft/lb torque.

So in conclusion a bigger/heavier car you need to be looking at 400bhp+ with similar torque, or as said above 250+bhp per ton.

NotoriousREV

Power delivery is a big factor too. My 400bhp GTR doesn't feel as fast as my old 300bhp WRX, but it is, if not quicker.

The Skyline isn't very torquey and doesn't start feeling quick until over 4500 rpm. Combine this with the long gearing (indicated 75mph in 2nd) and the silky smooth straight 6 and it just doesn't have that instant "hit" you get from a Scoob.

skinters

Depends whether it's acceleration G or relentless countryside flashing by.

Turbo power is more likely to give you 'wow' factor due to delivery style and regardless of actually performance.

4wd means you can nail it in 1st and 2nd without spinning up and can get the power down...

I'd say 250bhp / tonne 4wd / 2nd to 3rd gear WOT will give the most impressive feeling of speed build up.

Had a drive in a 400bhp Ferrari 360M on a track recently - stunningly nice to drive and wonderfully composed but didnt feel very fast to me - it just smoothly pulled and pulled. Although I'd just nailed it in a 350bhp saab down narrow roads to get there on time.... that actually FELT faster.

projectsubaru

When i went from a running rough standard car that would miss at about 5k to a 300 hp proven classic thats when i noticed. When other supposedly quick cars are left for dead then you know your in something quick

NACRO

How is he getting 600bhp? I have a DMS tuned car and it just about manages 500bhp ish on the stock exhaust. There are a few people on a marque specific forum I frequent who have the factory performance pack on their cars and with the remap/zorst they get 550-60.

I'd be interested to know how much he had to spend to get 600. Purely academic though- I'm happy to report that 500bhp is enough to feel 'nippy'

RobEvo5

iTrader: (9)

Interesting what was said about the skyline, I recently went to a skyline Dyno day at GTart. And the skylines were pulling some impressive figures, but I couldn't help but hear a very linear type power with longer gearing similar to the M3, which even to the ear sounded like it would never feel that quick on the road.

That was until a 1000bhp at the wheels R34 skyline ran and then done a simulted 1/4 mile that totally humbled me

On the same day a 350bhp STI8 ran and it sounded very urgent on the rollers yet it was well under the power of the skylines. But could tell the Scoob would have felt allot more nippy, urgent and fun on the road.

2 seaters,and convertibles are the way to go to add another dimension to the power equation. I am sure a well tunned RS4/RS6 for example feels very quick, but better a lightweight 2 seater would feel much more urgent and fun with a fraction of the power.

RobEvo5

iTrader: (9)

With a silly budget and years spent tunning it, he could probably technically advise, but he has plowed £10,000's into modifcations. Complete built bottom with forged larger pistons, modified bottom end by porsche racing specialist, 264 cams, Dustin Turbo, Race intercooler, electronic ignition, exhaust, coilovers.

At one point he had a built 4 speed box geared to 150mph. But soon realised it was a bonkers box with the amount of power. It snapped 150mph in a blink and then just run out of revs. He has now had the car completly customised to run a 5 speed box, which is apparantly a special box, and the engine bay and tunnel have all needed to be modified to accept the box.

I love his car, its totally originally to look at from the outside with Fusche? alloys albeit with wider than stock ones at the front. He is on the 911 owners forum not sure of his handle but can find out.

Oh and he has the headwork done as well when the cams were done. Its a pretty specials car. He spent a fortune getting to 500/500 but has now lost the plot!

LG John

I think the true test is when you take someone else out in the car who isn't really used to fast cars. I have an STI-5 with 310bhp and I recently planted it in 2nd through 3rd with my father in-law (to be) in the passenger seat. He clearly was taken by the acceleration but it wasn't the sort of "holly f*cking, jesus, mother-fvcker!" type reaction you are looking for. The sort of reaction when someone is seriously taken aback by what they are feeling/seeing.

I personally think with a classic scooby you'd want around 450bhp to really knock the stuffing out of someone. For Skylines, 911 turbo's and Supra's probably about 550-600bhp