skinters

So - they bought it 4 days ago from a small middleman trader and I helped them check it.

Car is mint, says 89k, felt 89k
BMW dealer stamps in book with the correct mileage gaps - book up to date.
MOTs missing but assuming a trade in wasnt totally worried - fresh MOT given along with fresh service.
Price spot on for year (2003) and spec.

After going with said friend to buy it - I woke up this morning with the vision on my mind that all the stamps in the book were from same garage, and all the mileages were in same colour ink. Called my friend and this was indeed the case.
We found you can check old MOTs online (doh!) last one was 120k (heads go down at this point). Arrrghh

They have signed purchase agreement that has words 'mileage not verified' burried in there - or words to that effect. Bu66er.
Thinking through some conversations, we are now 100% that this middle man dealer has clocked it.. for sure.

So 1) We are going to call the supposed BMW dealer , 2) Previous owner if possible and gather as much evidence as we can.

We'll go to him with evidence and try for a refund... but do we have a leg to stand on? Is there a good way to go here that will force his hand? (assuming violence is not really an option). The car has done 4miles since they bought it off this fine upstanding gentleman from his house.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Might be perfectly innocent, I would keep quiet and watch his ads, get a few registrations of vehicles he is selling and the advertised mileage and then use the same check, build a bit of a dossier and then present it to trading standards.

So it looks like that particular car has had a haircut, I wouldn't go in all guns blazing at first, if the car is otherwise ok, keep an eye on him and get some evidence.

I can see how you feel, thats the problem with checking cars out for people but its unavoidable, they wear so well its so hard to tell.

Like you say, speak to previous owners and try and identify where its been and get some kind of idea of the timeline, do the work for Trading Standards and they will be only to keen to finish the job.

Edit, noticed you need the V5 ref, still, a little bit of work, could still be done.

Suresh

I expect the dealer stamps were forged.
Forgery is a criminal offence.

robby

where do you check the old MOTs?

as355f1

Just Because it says on this invoice "mileage not verified" means jack **** the dealer must use all means possible to verify the mileage if he cannot then he must sell it mileage incorrect and approx mileage is ??????, he would not have a leg to stand on in court, contact your local trading standards they love things like this !

34srm

think your wrong mileage not verified means wot it says on the tin, and you can only do mot check on car if you have reference number off the logbook, sorry to say think your gonna struggle getting money back

as355f1

oh well 10 years as a motor dealer and i am wrong, never mind, if it was as easy as just putting on your invoice not verified then there would be a hell of a lot of clocked cars out there !

go to trading standards you will get a full refund from the dealer, he will not win in court,
if he is a decent dealer he will refund you straight away as he may have bought it in good faith to.

Dream Weaver

I agree, mileage not verified just means they haven't checked it - that doesn't make it legal to sell a car with a false service history and fake mileage reading.

ZIPPY

As already mentioned go back to the dealers and see what they say.

Dont go in all guns blazing be polite but firm you may be suprised.

My wife has a friend who has bought a 318 BMW from a local trader it says 20k on the clocks but the front end pebble rash tells me its much more but she wont let me check its history (They now have it on a private plate) so dont know its original ID.

They are happy but have paid way over the odds for it. Not my problem so im leaving her too it.

skinters

Thanks guys! appreciated
Update:
1) Service book now proven to be a forgery. Called garage that was doing servicing and they only have 2 services listed. Mileages dont match their refs either.
2) Getting previous owner's info soon....
3) Looking at how we bought, the paper receipt, switch receipt and advert have names differing by 1 letter. So obvious when pointed out but didnt notice prior.
4) As car has only done 4 miles and not been used, we have legally not formally accepted it (apperently)
5) Formal letter with verified legal statement going in requesting refund.

Aparently we are totally within our rights to get the full refund accorind to Cit Advice etc. His little clauses on mileage stand to nothing - especially with forgery involved. - Getting it is another matter.

Advice: If it doesnt feel 100% right. It isnt. No paperwork upfront so no time to research then paperwork only on night of payment. Even if you are in a rush and only have the one slot to buy in (our issue). Walk away and take an extra day to check the details. It's SO easy to check too.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Why not go to the dealer with your evidence and get him to stump up the difference between what it cost and what it should have cost, plus some extra for your trouble, or you go to trading standards ?

I suppose that doesnt stop him for future punters.

billythekid

How do you check the old MOT online?

turboman786

Introduction

You need the reg

AND

either the test number from the MOT certificate, or the document reference number from the V5 reg doc....

Dracoro

If you HPI, you get data from the National Mileage Register which highlights any discrepancies. Obv dependant on data it is given (i.e. optional bit on V5 when selling/buying car) and now data from MOT as well.

AIUI, if a dealer knows the mileage to be incorrect (e.g. new dashpod/cluster/speedo, clocked, mileometer broken etc.), he must declare it to the NMR.

Dealers have decent access to HPI and NMR so they know full well if the mileage is iffy or not. Unfortunately, punters don't have this access but at least something is being put in the HPI checks now.

dpb

So what exactly does 'milage verified' let the dealer in for ?

skinters

Introduction (Already posted I see)

As Dracoro says I expected that the MOT checks would now wrap in the the HPI. VERY useful info indeed.

In our case there was a spanking new HPI 'provided with the paper work'. Looking at it now they didnt opt for the mileage option - assume it costs more but given the condition of car we didnt question. Another DOH!


Anyway - to continue the saga:

We went armed with what is now a lot of offical info to support us and got on a conference call which was memorised using a little assistance... It may seem overkill but you would not believe the chat this guy has given... quite incredible. Plus all the little forgeries, mixed names, missing info , evasive answers, the fact he doesnt have a garage when he said he did, lying about why he was busy but then changing story twice in a comdey of bad chat etc etc. Anyway he finally agreed a return of car after being 'surprised' and then asking a lot about 'how we knew'. To be honest I was very surprised at this but big relief.

My friends returned the car last night and spent 1.5hrs trying to do a refund on his switch machine (claiming he didnt have the refund code). They were caught somewhere between whether he was just out of the amateur dramatics society or trying to extend some bizarre bluff or just stupid. (there was a lot of the later). They finally left with a refund cheque and a receipt of cheque and receipt of return of car with the company name that matched the original Switch payment.
He still hadnt sent off the V5 so actually saved extra complications and he was tippexing out the our friends name during this time.

So - will the cheque bounce? If it does, it's fraud big time but we are better prepared now although still feeling very exposed.

It's 4 years since I bought my car and I've learned a lot here!! Get a full HPI even if they offer you one...
If the car has been clocked or made up service in an earlier life I suspect this will be a lot more difficult to spot. In this case it had just been done so was actually easy once we actually looked properly.... Call the garage that serviced. Call the previous owner. Its a lot of money. Take a day or 2 if you want.

I am sure there are endless cases like this so potentially preaching to converted but I when there a substantial amount of money involved, dont take a single chance, dont rush it. There is always another.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

My new car had literally just been driven back to the dealers by its previous owner, still dirty so he hadnt had chance to do anything.

Good result though, assuming the cheque is ok, hopefully he will relaise he has dodged a bullet and wont want to make matters worse by attemting further fraud, leave it six months then anoymously tip off Trading Standards.

scoobberdoo

Well done forum chaps, lots of good info there, a lot of which I didn't know (thought I did).

However, the Switch refund bothers me. I hope I'm wrong, but I wonder if he had enough funds to cover the credit!! If it was my cash, I would be trying to find out more info on this guy-however you get it (where he lives etc) whilst waiting on the cheque to clear. I feel this guy new exactly what he was doing.

Hope he gets his money

scoobberdoo

Agreed. You might save someone else from this type of disaster. I would do it much sooner though.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Keep an eye out to see if the car reappears for sale!

5t.

skinters

Yeah - trading standards already informed and we were trying to get money back before any contact is made by them (if any in short term). No way I want another poor bu66er taken in. Will keep an eye out for car too.

The big issue in all this is proving it was HIM is a bit of a nightmare really. He can say it was a mechanic that did it, or just deny and it even the formally logged MOT mileages can be disputed as typos. Even 2 of them over the mileage the car was sold at!! The forged service is potentially easier to haul in but even then it's tough.
i.e. going down the path of sueing, court action is long stressfull and could be years before you get money if he's a real dodger.

Get it right before you hand over the money...

great advice on this forum too - The 'collect loads of ammo and go in softly for money back' worked well here... assuming cheque clears. cheers!!

Huw Jorgan

If a dealer does a HPI report & it later transpires that there is an issue with the car, isn't the dealer covered rather than the new owner?

I was told, by the guy who re-set the mileage on my car, that I had a legal obligation to inform the new owner, when I sold the car, that the mileage had been re-set. Hope you mate gets his money back.

skinters

er... an old friend is back. Just in case you happen to be in market for a very special type of BMW

Autotrader - BMW 320d SE

http://www.paragonsautomobiles.com/Paragon/car2.html

I am in no way linking this to the above posts but you never can tell.... can you.....

Brendan Hughes

Eh? AT ad is 8k, their ad is 10k.

However, both boast full service history - isn't that what you said was forged?

Better let Trading Standards know again.

skinters

8k is the price. Waiting for some funds to clear then we'll speak to our friends. The story may have changed to the real facts this time. You never know.

dpb

ummm... complete with comedy spelling

skinters

the cheque cleared!!! Shock horror.

(thought I'd wrap up the post with a happyish ending).
Only real loss is a total waste of everyone's time.
Gave my car buying knowledge a good kick though

Trading standards moving in ....

Brendan Hughes

Can you also claim a 100 quid reward for shopping a dodgy trader? Used to get something like that for shopping tax dodgers. Hey, make the most of it

bmfcrash

iTrader: (14)

LMAO, if that could happen to be said car, my curiousity got the better of me and because an estate would be useful I called them.
Car now seems to have 96k on the clock and just serviced, will be sold with an HPI cert to comfirm the above . Sounds like a nice clean genuine car, and can be supplied with the original wheels if prefered.

Suresh

Great news!