SVVG

iTrader: (1)

Hi Guys,

I've currently got a mildly modded, and pretty quick P1 - which I lurrrrve - but my main means of transport is an 80K 306 S16 (i.e. An MI16 block with slightly different inlet manifold - which I also love.....).

I've got a few options I'm playing with re tuning it up - and really don't know what to do (am not going to sell the car!), so would be grateful for views and opinions on driveability - and hence the difference in performance between the various options - which are:

1) Richard Longmans ported and polished head, cams, manifold, uprated fuel pressure regulator - then think about touring car inlet manifold, and after market EFI system - or maybe throttle bodies with the EFI system - and perhaps a change to a Citroen Xsara VTS gearbox (better ratios apparantly).

2) Supercharge the car (i.e. add a super charger kit plus pipe work etc - but no engine re-build.)

3) Turbo the car - pistons/intercooler/ fuel pressure reg/ EFI and injectors plus mapping etc;

4) GTI6 transplant with cams, manifold uprated fuel pressure regulator plus citroen xsara vts gearbox; and....

4) T16 engine transplant (the turbo daddy of Pug engines).

Prices re the above range from about 2.5k - to 5.5K and I have somewhere I like dealing with and in whom I'm confident re workmanship - or if not, that they'll at least sort me out!

I'd be really grateful for any constructive comments !!!!

I sort of feel that engine transplant is almost like buying a new car - and would quite like to keep what I have - although a GTI 6 lump is much better....

Ah... the problems I have to deal with in life...

Cheers!!!

Gutmann pug

Hi there.

As you called my name specifically I will reply

I am no expert on the 306 S16 although obviously I know what it is. I do know a good few 306 GTi 6's though.

My advice would be based on what you intend to do with the car. If it will be used for track days as well as road use then I would do the following.

1. Strip it (its free and the best performance mod you can get for the money)
2. Cage it, adds weight but safety is paramount
3. Bucket seat
4. Harness
5. Brake pad upgrade

Then I would run it for a while and find out what you dont like about it. That is the time to start investing in Suspension, track tyres, ARB's etc.

Personally I would do all that before I even considered mucking about with the engine.

If you do want to play with the engine my advice would be ......... Put the GTi6 engine in but make sure it's rebuilt before you do it. No point putting it in and it going bang within a month. I suspect you will need the correct ancillaries to go with it and no doubt it wont be cheap. Might even be cheaper just to flog the S16 and buy a GTi6......

A friend of mine has a GTi6 which he used to run at the ring very sucessfully. With a std engine and major suspension etc mods it used to run 8.30's. Whe the engine finally went bang he started building a 'hot' engine with over 200bhp. Around £5K later and 2 broken engines he still doesn't have a car which has done more than about 1/2 hours track work. Stick with the standard engine and mod everything else

SVVG

iTrader: (1)

Cheers Fella,

I've had a bit of a re-think - and think my initial post helped me clarify what I want!

I'm going to stick with the S16 engine until it goes bang - and go for the head, cams and manifold and put some throttle bodies on it (with a new EFI, uprated fuel pressure reg and oil cooler). If I change the engine,then I'll feel like I've given up the "project" and started afresh - but concede entirely that the GTi6 is the engine of choice - and is a better starting platform. When "modding" a car, I think what I'm trying to do is make it as good as it can be - and am kind of attached to the fact that it is an S16, with an S16 engine.... although have been talked into swapping the gear box to a Xsara one as it is supposed to have much better ratios (this is the same reason that I don't want to 2.5 my P1).

Worst case scenario, I think I can get my money back for the head, cams and manifold (am getting a good deal on these), so will just be losing the labour - which I think I can take the hit on - and then I can always go the GTI6 route - and will have a set of TBs with an EFI in hand....

Car is going to remain a road car - just needs a bit more power.

Thanks for your input - think you're right in terms of getting the most out of a 306 shell - but think my approach is going to change to focus on getting the best out of the S16 - and not think about T16 engines etc....

Cheers!

ScoobyJawa

Just tune it up to 200bhp like the Mi engines, with the bodies and a good ecu. Other option is a light pressure turbo can work well.......

SVVG

iTrader: (1)

Yep - the S16 is an Mi engine - just with a different inlet manifold/arrangement - has vaccum diaphragms so you get better low down torque - always slagged off as allegedly always breaks - but mine seems to have been fine!

Will hopefully be knocking on the door of 200bhp with the proposed set up (for what the figures are worth.....) - and not really looking for much more out of it. It does "go", just needs a bit more ooomph - so reckon plan "a" will work out alright! (reckon at the moment car has about 140bhp ish - dug out an old dyno graph from previous owner (although who knows how the rolling road was set up and whether it's any good etc....) and it was 146 at the at the fly wheel). Would have thought I could squeeze another 40 bhp out of head, manifold, cams and TBs?

Will report back in a couple of weeks!

SVVG

iTrader: (1)

OK - Slightly longer than a couple of weeks.... picked car up in October - and after a little running in and tweeks to stuff which came a bit loose.... all has gone VERY well. Have just had a GTI6 gearbox installed - and I absolutely love it. Car feels really strong and is really smooth.

Just need to sort the suspension out now - and fix the bloody ABS which has never worked.... Really pleased with it though!

cookstar

iTrader: (6)

Someone I know has a 306 S16, dont know much about them, its a really tidy car, he tried flogging it to me last week for £1000, how much are they worth?

SVVG

iTrader: (1)

Depends on mileage and tidyness....

Think mine is top end (prior to modding) and with 80K on the clock would expect to get £1500 for it... Reckon it might be worth closer to £1800 prior to mods - but you can start picking up GTI6s for that money, so might not be abel to get quite that much... but they'll need a bit of work.

You can get untidy S16s for about £500 - but expect trouble - advice would be to go for a GTI6 to be honest - I've spent too much time on mine to follow said advice though! (as per tortuous opening thread above!) - and have now got the GTI6 gear box and brakes - the latter of which is a must IMO, as standard brakes - even with uprated pads are rubbish. If the engine goes - I'll definetly get a GTI6 engine (unless I'm offered a good deal on a rebuild with lightweight pistons from Richard Longman....)

Engines last about 120-130K miles, but standard brakes are rubbish. A GTI6 engine transplant from Pug Performance, with some cams - would be about £1500 - 1800 I reckon - and the engines have about 40K on them (they are the same engines as the Xsara VTS...). Rear beams go - but are £250 to get a replacement second hand one - and suspension goes soft/usual issues with bushes on old cars.

Absolutely love mine - no one's going to nick it, and parts and fixing it are really affordable - and you can get a sht load in the back of it as the boot's quite big and seats fold down. Perfect London car!

cookstar

iTrader: (6)

I do like 306s, I opted for a 1.9 TD sport in the end, great handling car etc, sports interior, but nearly 600 miles from a tank is the best bit

SVVG

iTrader: (1)

You can turn the boost up on those and get great performance - as long as you don't turn it up too far...!

Was getting 220 miles to a tank until re-adjusted the map (worse than my Scoob!). Not sure what it does now as not had a full/normal run where I've reset the trip counter) - but must be better than that as no longer covers the rear of the car in fuel - or kicks out 12 inch flames...

cookstar

iTrader: (6)

Im going to book it in and have a stage one kit done, £185 and 40 extra torques

SVVG

iTrader: (1)

Not bad - where you taking it?

I went in one which Spoox did (in Leicester) - was bloody fast - but am loathed to recommend him as he did not put my rear beam back together properly - in fact he left one bolt off - and the other was loose a few weeks later when I found Pug Performance and got them to do it properly (saw with my own eyes as it was taken off).

There's a thread on GTI6.com - or might be 205 drivers... which shows you how to increase the boost on the mechanical boost valve - but you obviously need to know how far to go - as I've also seen a car which kicked a (bit of a) piston out of the body work....!

cookstar

iTrader: (6)

Not sure yet, there were a couple of options when I asked about this in another thread in here.

I will be having a company doing it, as I really could do with this one not breaking. Its currently having a very low milleage engine put in it, as the 180k on let go after a week of me

Having a nice clutch fitted at the same time and a few other bits.


Trouble is I bought this for a work horse, now Im looking to get it sprayed, wheel etc etc, cracking little car

aggs

Sort out the handling.
Buy some light wheels, and decent tyres.
Keep engine standard so it is reliable.
Spend all the money you save on track days and tuition and lots of oil and filter changes to look after that engine.
Enjoy chasing faster cars with inferior handling/drivers/tyres etc.
Just my thought on the matter.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Ive got both a GTi-6 and an S16 (greedy or what! ) the S16 is the project car (its actually in good mechanical condition, interior is pretty spot on too, no dents in the bodywork just some stonechips on the front and needs 2 new fog lights, an exhaust and the brakes doing, stripped the calipers and rebuilt them now )
You could opt for a GTI 180 engine, better than both the above for tuning, and pretty cheap considering, it should be good for 190-195 with just decent supporting mods.

Tony

Dream Weaver

GTI 180 conversion is a nightmare though with the multiplexed wiring stuff, just not worth the agro.

PS this is an old thread BTW, think he has had the work done now.

SVVG

iTrader: (1)

Yep - was an update - but then we started discussing Cookstar's Pug...

One of the guys at Pug Performance had a 206 GTI 180 engine conversion - on throttle bodies I think - said it was aswesome as the block is much lighter. It appeared on the cover of one of the French car mags (Performance GTI or something like that?). Think he's sold the engine now or might be selling it - as he's going for a supercharged GTI6).

I'm umming and arring about wheels at the moment - I need new tyres, and the standard alloys need refurbing - or I've got a set of very untidy 16 inch OZ Super Tourismos which I could put on.... decisions, decisions.... and then do I go standard silver - or maybe anthracite like the Scoob...

rb5_336

Sod using EFI from longmans, they lock the ECU and it's expensive to begin with. It's not like you save on mapping because they have mapped so many cars similar to your,so mapping time is reduced.

It won't be difficult to get 200bhp from cams, TBs and an ECU (dta, omex,emerald)

Phil

Just started on my Pug

As Gary has said Engine Last

Subaru Impreza Drivers Club -> Chairmans Blog

marv wrx

iTrader: (1)

i had an s16 before the scooby,loved it to bits still miss it now ..it was running 180 brake...it had a gti6 exhaust (the best mod for the s16) decated magnex exhaust & some sort of chip i think ...the next step wa to have a remap to let it rev 8500 instead of 7250 ,but never got round to it...

waste of time & money with a gti6 engine swap as basicly the same engine & was told that the valves are plenty big enough so no point in a big valve head,just get yours polished....

i lost count of how many gti6s i saw off

Dream Weaver

What you doing with the steering wheel Phil as it looks pretty clean and I'm after a phase 2 std wheel like that.

Are you selling it?

Phil

I was looking for something a little more chunky tbh

Once I have found one yes it can be for sale I will give you a shout