simonburton

I'm looking at getting a comfy motorway cruiser, which will also have plenty of performance, having just sold my CSL. The short list is the M5 (E60), Alpine B5, Audi RS6 Avant or E55/63 AMG - any others I should add to the list?

I have driven the M5 and Alpina but not the Audi or Merc yet. All will have similar performace, qualtity, running costs etc, but has anyone got any real world experience with these cars.

I have read a lot about the Audi and M5, so could do with more info on the Merc really.

Comments appreciated.

Cheers

AudiLover

In a car and driver review the M5 gets beaten by the E63 and Audi S6. The M5 has lost a few comparos now.

john banks

I think he asked for real world experience not recycled magazine reviews?

AudiLover

whats the chances of any one having driven all four back to back, especially the alpina which is meant to be comfort orientated

PCM

This john banks fella probably has

Why not go for an RS4?

john banks

Only the RS6 which I liked a lot, it felt better than the magazine reviews suggest, bearing in mind that an 1800+ kg car is never going to feel like a Subabishi, but is a heck of a lot better at being a fast motorway cruiser. I wouldn't consider the others because I live in Scotland and the M3 struggled with snow, not really any use when I have to respond to emergencies, and the AMGs don't have a limited slip diff IIRC. Since the poster has had a CSL with wilder tyres than my old shopping version, this probably isn't an issue for him?

AudiLover

So you can read up more on the Mercedes:





http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/att...9&d=1166768854
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/att...0&d=1166768854
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/att...1&d=1166768854
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/att...2&d=1166768854
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/att...3&d=1166768885

1st. MB E63
2nd. Audi S6
3RD BMW M5


From my own experience is that the AMG's hide the speed well, but they are oh so smoooooth. They go over speed bumps as if they dont exist, and this was in a CLK55 AMG MK2 convertible so I can only imagine how good a E-class is.

Edcase

Good long review here:

YouTube - Alpina B10 V8S & Audi RS6 & BMW E39 M5

Having owned M5 and RS6 simultanously until recently, I just sold the RS6 a few weeks back.

Pro's and cons on the RS6 are:

The interstellar straight-line performance
The interior / build quality
The endless admiring looks and comments
The load carrying ability without the usual load carrying performance-sap
The nav / sterio system (the E39 M5 one is appalling)
The 4WD sure-footedness in any weather
The look of awe on people's faces when you trot out the stats (faster 0-30 than a McLaren F1 etc.)
The ease of the semi-auto box in town and when cruising

What I won't miss:

The lack of ultimate driver involvement in 'the twisties' (TM)
The fuel bills (the N/A M5 is noticeably better)
The service and parts costs (thank god for warranty...the DRC suspension is a noticeable weakspot)
The harsh ride on the 19's (which may be an issue for you if its for 'touring')
The limitations of the semi-auto box when pressing on

As for the M5, its just as quick, rides the bumps better, cheaper to run, much more driver involvement etc.

It's really hard to call it either way, but if you get chance to test both back to back that will give you some good pointers. Coming from a CSL, my gut says you'll prefer the M5 over the straight-line fireworks of the RS6.

Ed

Deep Singh

Simon, I have a c32 AMG and can share some thoughts on that as it maybe similar to the E55 AMG.

Pros

1) Engine. These supercharged merc jobs are fantastic, the low down pull is better than almost every car I've driven. In kickdown there is massive acceleration.

2) Gearbox. For an auto its very good ie it learns your driving style and adapts to be aggressive or sedate.

3) Ride. Fantastic. You can cover 500 miles and get out the otherside relaxed, this is also due in part to great seats and ergonomics.

4) Equipment. Very high levels on all AMG models.

Cons

1) You can have fun, but it is not as focused as a M car. This pisses me off from time to time but 95% of the time I'm happy with the compromise.

2) Massive torque + auto box + rwd means getting the power down in the wet from an aggressive standing start can be tricky, but then you own a CSL so no probs perhaps.

3) Fuel consumption. My average is 18-20mpg around town.

I'm looking to change my car at some point over the next year and have considered the same shortlist as you. The problems I've uncovered ( on the web NOT personal experience are )

RS6: Lots of DRC problems. If fixed out of warranty very expensive. Constant complaints of ride quality, road noise and lack of driver steering feel. So not a relaxed cruiser and not driver focused, so whats the point? Before I get flamed, I admit I've never driven the thing but what I've read has put me off.

M5: The boards seem to be full of people complaining of gearbox failures, SMG software problems, electrical glitches. Very small fuel tank. Interior a bit boring. Again haven't driven it but for a whopping £50k second hand I'm a little concerned by all the problems I've read about

Have you considered the CLS 55AMG? The handling of this is meant to be sharper than the E55 due to a stiffer shell and airmatic suspension. I sat in one and it feels a little cramped for my liking. Even Evo magazine says that if you do long journeys the CLS 55 AMG beats the M5 as supersaloon king. Go a search for the Top Gear video where JC reviews it.

Deep

rb5037

OMG! !

Philip Attaway

I have an RS6 on 19" alloys and I can't understand all these complaints about ride quality. I can only presume your DRC's are knackered!

You want a motorway cruiser, this is where the RS6 excels.

Most motorways are not full of pot holes. I can understand the ride on a bumpy B road but I can tell you my STi on Prodrive springs was no better!

Steering feel is true though. It feels very vague compared to the STi. BUT the Sti would skip and tramline on a motorway and I would be constantly correcting.

As a motorway cruiser I can't think of a better car than the RS6.

Matteeboy

Get the Merc just to be different, stealthy and for that engine noise!

Real tough choice though -I'd hate to be in your shoes...!

Edcase

Philip, out of interest what other cars have you owned / driven?

It was definitely the tyres on mine that were the problem, IIRC they were 35 profile on the 19's? It was less potholes more expansion joints and general road noise and harshness. My M5 is like a matress in comparison, yet still with more dynamic handling.

Ed

GCollier

I owned an RS6 avant for almost 2 years. They're fantastic cars, and when the requirement is fast and secure mile munching in any conditions with passengers and a heap of luggage, there is little to beat them.

Ride quality is to some extent subjective, and I can kind of see where both Philip and Ed are coming from with their comments on this. The car is stiffly sprung and doesn't really like badly rutted or pot-holed roads. But on any half-decent road I don't think the ride will be any sort of problem. Some of it may also be down to tyres - I replaced the pirelli p-zero rossos on mine with michelin PS2's which noticeably improved ride and handling.

Try to book a long test drive if you can, because if you're coming from a CSL I can't help but feel you'll be disappointed with the RS6 to start with. The audi is the sort of car which rewards when you have to drive 400 miles with maximum speed and minimum fuss, not the sort of car which will give you the sort of buzz you'll get in a 30 minute blast down A/B roads in your M3.

Consumable-type things to look for with the RS6 are worn brakes (up to £1500 a set for disks and pads) which the car can get through quickly if driven hard, tyres (£700-900 a set) and a big cam-belt service at 3 years (£1200-1500). Audi warranty isn't cheap to renew either for years 4/5 at £1600 per annum, though the cars on the whole seem very reliable. The only common fault seems to be the DRC suspension which can cost around £2k to sort out of warranty, though you do hear one or two stories of gearbox failure with 5 figure repair bills from audi.

Gary.

Skittles

Nice choice of cars. I've owned a RS6 and traded it in this summer for a n E60 M5.

In summary, the E60 M5 is in a different (or perhaps two) to the RS6. It is, without qualification, the best car I've owned... better than a 996 C4 and the RS6. The performance is simply breathtaking and the interior is great - fresh and modern.

The RS6 is a great car, but it is based on a car designed in the late 80s. The problem with RS models is that they come out right at the end of a car's life cycle so they are already pretty old. M cars are towards the start. The interior of the RS6 is solid and well built, but lets face it, its pretty in inspiring and is quite "old man"-ish by today's standards.

The Audi's party trick is acceleration due to that massive and flat torque curve. But to be honest that's where it ends: it does not have too much depth. It feels every bit the huge and heavy car it is when you go around a corner. Also you feel like you are piloting not driving: i.e. no driver involvement and I'm not just talking about on a track. As has already been said, the ride on UK roads is pretty bad.

The M5 on the otherhand feels like a M3 sized car. OK it does not and cannot feel like a 911, but it wraps around you. Steering feedback is great and it handles beautifully! There are three suspension settings on the M5 so in comfort mode, as one of the magazines have pointed out, it is a better ride than a normal 5-series non sport due tot eh lack of run flats. I have a newborn and the ride in comfort mode is impressive, but not perfect.

On a track.... well the Audi simply understeers into each and every corner and and thrashes its brakes. The M5 is simply sublime (for a 1.8 tonne car).

The M5 is not perfect (e.g. lacks the low down torque of the RS) but its pretty close!

To pick up on some previous points:

1. Audilover - your link is... well.... unrepresentative of people's views of these cars. Its an American article which I guess just about says it all, and given your name I guess you searched long and hard for it! Anyway, they didn't like the BMW's meddling DSC. Note: The US market get a 6-speed manual and on this, for whatever stupid reason, DSC cannot be switched off! The Euro version gets the 7-speed SMGII on which the DSC can be fully switched off. ALso the 6-speed was a rushed development and the E60 was not designed around this box, rather the 7-speed one. Besides the 6-speed is from the E39.

CAR did a comparison of the S6, E63 and the E60 M5 (links below). While it is not the RS6 I think the numerous comparisons with the E39 M5 probably give you the information you need.

Makes interesting reading:

ImageShack - Hosting :: 1ju4.jpg
ImageShack - Hosting :: 2om5.jpg
ImageShack - Hosting :: 3tz8.jpg
ImageShack - Hosting :: 4xo1.jpg
ImageShack - Hosting :: 5nz0.jpg
ImageShack - Hosting :: 6px0.jpg
ImageShack - Hosting :: 7ys0.jpg
ImageShack - Hosting :: 8bu2.jpg
ImageShack - Hosting :: 9cu3.jpg
ImageShack - Hosting :: 10wt8.jpg



2. Deep: yes there have been gearbox complaints. The vast majority of these have not been physical breakdowns, rather the "red cog of death". There is a faulty optical sensor which measures steering angle which is faulty. If it gets dust on it it logs a gearbox fault which puts it into a failsafe mode (i.e. slower gear changes). Its a very quick recall fix. The fuel tank is annoying. I get 220-280 miles to the tank. I would get 280-320 in the RS6, and that's down to (a) slightly better consumption and (b) an additional 16 litres for the fuel tank

I can't speak for others but my M5 has been bulletproof now. I would never buy the first batch of a new model as there are always teething issues. The RS6 had been in for 3xDRC failures, the self levelling headlamps pointing upwards and blinding on coming cars for no reason, turbo hoses falling off, disc cracking, and a partial DIS failure.

So.... to sum up, the Audi makes you smile when you accelerate in a straight line. The M5 sends shivers down your spine, without fail, whenever you push it.

Deep Singh

Thanks for that Skittles. Have you had any problems with the SMG? Also what colour combo have you got?

Deep

Skittles

Hello mate. No problems with SMG other than taking it for the recall. I'm a fan of semi-autos to get along quite well with the SMG. I got the car in August and I've done a trackday and a trip to the Nurburgring and (fingers crossed) its been bullet proof.

I went for Silverstone II with black.

GCollier

Interesting comments Skittles - and given even our lowly 335d (outright performance aside) is a much more satisfying car to drive than the RS6 was - I can quite well believe the M5 is in a different league as a drivers car.

Points remaining in the Audis favour I guess are probably 4wd (if you need it, e.g. for ski trips), it's available as an Avant, and that a decent one is probably £20k+ less than a decent M5...assuming M5's are still making £50k+?

Gary.

craigdmcd

iTrader: (2)

I can't comment on the RS6 or the latest E60 M5 (although having worked for BMW a short while before the E60 M5 was launched, I did notice how much poorer the quality of the new 5 Series was). I have worked on and off at MB in Glasgow for 10 years, and can comment on how much more firepower Mercedes build in to the AMG versions, and this I base on many test drives against E39 M5's and late model M3's, which all were beautiful driving machines, but completely unispiring when the throttle was floored.
As for which Merc to choose if that is your chosen path, well that is more difficult. The E55 AMG with that fabulous supercharged engine, is really a thing of beauty, and is strangely deceptive with it's in-gear times, as both the supercharger and the (no-option) auto box seem to take a second to wind up and spit you down the road at a rate of knots that push you in to the seat much the same as Concorde used to do on take-off. (Oh, incidentally, there is a IWC Limited edition on our forecourt for sale just now).
Then things moved on to the E63 which now has a beutifully built N/A 6.3 V8 designed by the AMG team for their products only. I haven't had a lot of time on these products yet (they are relatively new to the market), but the AMG thinking and work ethics already has me won over on these as well.
And lastly, you have to move the game up the scale (as well as the beauty a few notches as well , in my humble opinion anyway), and at least look at either the CLS55AMG and the CLS63AMG. The same package as the E class, but slightly more polished, and the possibly one of the nicest four seater saloons to sit with this amount of pace. (And who's kidding who, they aren't really four door coupe's).
Sorry for the long winded waffle, but if you haven't made up your mind, visit a MB dealer, and it may well just be swung in the direction of a Three pointed Star.
Craig
PS - they aren't just one trick ponies, I've travelled shorter distances in club class and got out feeling worse than travelling in a Merc.

Deep Singh

Not quite. You can't find a well specced, low mileage, 2004 dealer RS6 for less than circa £40k. 2005 M5s now start at £50k, so £10k difference or less if you consider the age difference

AudiLover

Let me clear up some issues


1. The US market gets both the 6 speed manual and SMG version of the M5.
2. I would take a E60 M5 over the RS6. The RS6 is really old now, so its no comparison, but I would take the E63 AMG over the M5 as its clearly the better car.
3. You said I searched long and hard for that article, well thats not true at all, you make it sound as if its a one off, with the M5 coming last which is wrong.
4. In another US magazine, a SMG equipped M5 and new S6 got raced around a race track, whilst the M5 was alot more powerful the S6 was only 0.1 of a sec slower than the M5 for alot less dosh.
5. New RS6 will be out soon, and going by the current A6 and S6, and how they shape up against the competition one shouldnt be flamed for presuming that it will be crowned undisputed king when its released.

Skittles

I'd love to try the 335d. I've read its actually a quicker point to point car than the E46 M3 but BMW have supressed the performance figures for obvious reasons...

Skittles

Hello mate. On point:

4: Yes... another US magazine. I can't believe a less powerful car, which is heavier, with additional transmission losses, and 4wd is quicker round a track.... but that's just my opinion. In fact the M5 Power-to-weight ratio is 278 and the S6 is 227, and thats before transmission losses... A RWD car should be at least as fast as a 4WD car in the dry.... which is what I'm assuming the test was in. If it was in the wet... then I'd expect it to be a fair bit faster.

As for cost more... wait until you sell it in two years time it will heamorrage value... all S (not RS) Audis do.

I'll admit I haven't driven one. But that's because when I picked the M5 the S6 was not in my shortlist of what I considered alternatives (the AMG was).

5: Agreed, it will be a quicker car, and I'd expect no less as Audi have 3-4 years development time advantage on the current M5, not to mention seeing the competition before they launch the car. But more rewarding, fun, and better... I doubt it... It will probably be a better point to point machine as it will flatter the average/below average driver but it certainly will not be a better drivers car. I guess it depends on what you look for in a car - please don't take that the wrong way.

AudiLover

4. Yes I see the point of it being a US review, but whats important is the fact that the S6 was only 0.1 of a sec slower than M5 around the racetrack.

5. I have to agree, I can only hope audi can pull another miracle out the bag as the A6 chassis' is still flawed (60-40 weight distribution), and I dont think a RS6 will beat the M5 in every category untill they use their brand new across the range chassis (first car to use this all new chassis will be the A5 and then the A4)

GCollier

They're applying a big markup then. A month ago I sold my RS6 (mint 04 plate 21k miler) privately for a little extra, but the trade were only bidding £30-31k and most Audi dealers weren't interested in the car at all as a straight purchase.