Spudgun GTR

cheers jon, how u getting on with finding a good 'un?

just edited to say that i read that stuff on i-club...blimey
my car was delayed, but not overbudget. it runs fab, not gonna go bang!!
jesus, why aint the guy sueing??

[Edited by Spudgun GTR - 11/8/2001 9:59:29 PM]

Spudgun GTR

as some here will know, i'm in the process of having my skyline modified.
here are the mods...
blitz boost controller
overhauled nismo steel tubos
cams
valve springs
head porting, flowing, and matching to inlet manifold &plenum
steel headgasket
steel inlet manifold gaskets
timing belt
aux belts
hiteq ecu
550cc injectors
hp fuel pump
forged pistons
hp oil pump
sump pan extension


....phew!!

now, heres the problem.the car went in to the tuners on the 28th of august, and should have been done 2 weeks later.
on sunday 14th of october i got the car back, to put 1000 miles on, it would then go back to have the tappets sorted, boost controller fitted and away we go!!!
on sunday the 14th, i took it round the m25 to put some miles on. it blatantly wasnt right. smoke kept billowing out the exhaust, it sounded like a flat four almost, and was sluggish.
i took it back in on the monday, first thing. i was told by the guy who did the engine that it was normal, its just running in. i said it definately didnt sound right, and there was a LOT of smoke.
so the guys partner came out, got the other fella to drive it round the block and he said straight away "its dropped a plug"(?)
apparently only four of the pistons were firing.

so they have had the car this week. today i went down there, its still smoking, still slow, and now theyre saying one of the turbo's aint right.
they have removed the ecu and injectors, and want to put another 500 miles on it to get it to 1000 miles. i'm not happy to do this, as i'm now seriously worried about damage being done to the engine.

so the upshot of this? the car should have been sorted within 2 weeks, its taken 7. its now still at the garage, smoking, and gonna take god knows how long to sort[img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img].
these people were apparently very good, and were recommonded, but i am now starting to have serious reservations about their ability to do the job.

what can i do about this?
its starting to get me down, i have spent a feckin fortune on these mods(6k) and they wont give me definate answers or dates of completion.its almost like theyre practising on my car.i've lost confidence in them.

i really need some advice here. i dont want to ask on the gtr board, coz they use that, and i'm not wanting to bad mouth the tuners involved, but i'm worried, really worried

what the hell do i do?

Blow Dog

Spudgun,

That sounds totally unacceptable. Are they admiting any liability?

Something tells me I know these guys, right?

Cem

Spudgun GTR

blowdog, yes you do
to be honest, i like the fellas, and dont want to slag 'em off, but its getting beyond a joke. its quite upsetting, knowing youve trusted someone with your pride and joy, spent EVERY penny youve got, and its turning out like this.
do i stick with 'em, or do i pull out now and try and get someone else to do it? i cant really afford to, but it really is getting to me.

miggs

Hi Spudgun

It sounds like you are in your own personal nightmare

All i can say m8 is hope it turns alright in the end


Miggs

Spudgun GTR

cheers miggs


has anyone here had a similar experience, and how did you handle it? for **** sake dont name names, wouldnt be a good idea , but how did you resolve it?

Pete Croney

Spud

If it dropped a plug, the unburnt fuel may well have "washed" the bore causing ring failure.

I speak from experience having done this on my RA when gravel testing. We hadn't thread locked the coil packs and one worked loose. I noticed the loss of power straight away and stopped within 1/2 mile. The result was this cylinder needing new rings.

My engine builder said that further use would have completely wrecked the bore and the diluted oil may have wrecked the rings.

A compression test will show up ring/bore wear, but lots of smoke is a common sign.

Pete Croney

I should add that we used this as the excuse for a full rebuild, but it sounds like you've already done that

Cougar

Spudgun

Have you tried talkin to a Spanner monkey who saw the car B4 it went to them as I have always found that when confronted with another mech these guys stop the BS and get the heads together to sort it out especially with nice cars like a GTR.

Just my 2p.

EvilBevel

Sounds a bit nightmare-ish.

Best advice ? Try to work with them and give them a chance to put things right. Let them know you are getting worried, but you would still like them to put things right. Let them know you suspect the rings/bore may have gone (as Pete explained). Ask them kindly put firmly what they want to do about it. Let them know you heard the "dropped a plug" comment.

The moment you let them know you have no more confidence or you want to take the car away, things will get antagonistic which means in the end: you loose more money.

Give them a deadline by which you want to see the car in the spec you ordered from them.

Finally: try to not worry too much about it ... it's a car and it's supposed to be fun.

HTH,

Theo

Spudgun GTR

pete, sorry for the double post earlier, i appreciate u posting again from what ive described, is this a serious problem ?

these people have worked on previous cars of mine, and my girlfriends. but all that really involved was putting a decat exhaust and induction kit in.no remapping etc.

so no other garage has really dealt with this car. in the time its taken to 'try' and do the engine, ive had the friggin thing resprayed and new blitz wheels added. it looks the b0ll0x, but not when the **** end is covered in black smoke[img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

BTW, when my girlfriend gets round to sorting out another scooby, i can feckin guarantee its going to scoobysport, and thats a promise

theo, i take your point, and have been working along the same idea. ive been tactful, patient, and not 'had a go'(which i would normally do)
but when do u say enoughs enough? as i say, i cant really afford to have the **** ups, if there are any, put right. i have just lost confidence, completely and utterely. maybe they'll pull it out of the bag, and it'll all be worth the worry, but i have my doubts.
your right, a car is meant to be fun, and they usually are. but when you spend 6k on engine work, 2.5k on wheels, and 1.6k on a respray and you aint a millionaire, it aint fun when it starts going pear shaped

[Edited by Spudgun GTR - 10/18/2001 5:22:22 PM]

SecretAgentMan

I'd not worry to much about it mate, as Pete said problems with the bore/rings will show up on a compression test...get the garage to look at it.

If yer hairdryer has gone **** up it's a great excuse to get the really big one you've been looking at.

/J

[Edited by SecretAgentMan - 10/18/2001 5:17:07 PM]

Spudgun GTR

which big one

Pete Croney

If it is that, and at the moment its an "if", the extent of the damage depends how much wear there is.

Mine was using the standard ECU so there wasn't an excessive amount of fuel. If its been remapped and was still producing full boost (mine was) then it could have been pumping it in at a serious rate and the damage would be greater. Basically what happens is the fuel doesn't get burnt and washes the microscopic film of oil off the cylinder walls. The rings then metal to metal and it produces a lot of heat.

I really hope its something simply and would love to see the car when its sorted.

AlexM

Spudgun,

I would insist on a proper diagnostic to establish what the problem is before going any further. This would mean leakdown test, oil and fuel pressure to try and see where you are at the moment.

Above all else, don't let them start changing loads of parts at your expense while trying to fix things - anything that doesn't cure it is free or removed.

I've been in a similar position (car in bits for five months, and never right again ), so I appreciate what a nightmare it is.

Talk to the boss, and agree what will be done by when. It may be worth agreeing to give them a chance to get things right, and then charging them for use of a rental car thereafter to focus their attention.

Above all, don't be tempted into parting with any money until the job is satisfactorily completed.

Good luck!

Alex

SecretAgentMan

<muppet mode="on">
The biggest one Spudgun?
<muppet mode="off">

j/k mate, hopefully it's nothing serious.

/J

Spudgun GTR

the car did 250 miles round the m25 and to ipswich and back from my house. it was run using the remapped ecu and injectors. i know what a scooby is meant to 'feel' like, but have no experience of what a skyline tuned to push out 550 bhp is meant to 'feel' like. it felt 'thumpy' and nasty. i spose the smoke was a big clue to a numbnut like me
the most stupid thing? i paid upfront why? coz i trusted these guys, ive done some work on them, ive known them for the past year. i paid upfront coz i didnt wanna spunk the money, then get the bill at the end and let them down. how frigg1n ironic
ive learnt a lesson. when it comes to money, no more mister nice guy. strictly business from now on.
however, they arent charging me for the remedial work. i'm not worried about a rental car, i use my girlfriends evo, its the principal of the thing. i'm worried about my babys engine.
cheers for the support so far guys

Spudgun GTR

secretagentman
have you got me confused with someone else

Deep Singh

Dudgun,this is everybodies worst nightmare.I have been in a similar position before(but not for so much money)and it's a difficult balance to strike between not wanting to wind them up but not looking like a novice walkover.For the kind of money that you've spent I think I'd be making some noise though mate,really lay down the parameters and let them know that you are not happy.I hope it all comes out in the wash.Cheers,Sheep Singh.
ps have you tried flashing them the pickaxe handle!!!!!!!

BugEyed

Sorry to be negative, but it is easier to get nicer after the event rather than to get harder. I do not know the people involved, but I suggest that you start suggesting that if they do do no not sort it out within a week that they return it to standard (or as was) and return your money to you in full.

The contract you should have should be based upon the basis of being fit for purpose, which this does not appear to be.

Is this the first car that they have done like this? If so, you are carrying the risk. If not, they have some responsibility.

Duncan

Spudgun GTR

cheers for the support sleep, my coppers cosh is at the ready

i really want to avoid legal threats or physical violence. this isnt how i wanted things to go.i actually have a lotta time for the fellas doing the tuning.
bugeye
where would i stand legally getting them to return it to standard? as you can see from the list at the top of the thread, theyve done a lot!

fast bloke

Did you decide on the spec or did they? If you said - I want 550BHP, what will it take, then they must deliver the correctly functioning 550BHP or your money back. If they have damaged the car in the process they must repair.
If you gave them the spec of engine, you should still be covered to have it working or refund, but you would probably be unable to justify original condition if they can return it working to some fashion.

-

Your best bet would be to get them to detail a plan of action in writing.
Your first aim should be to get the car complete to spec without any further outlay. There is no reason that they cannot do this. A complete rebuild from scratch will cure the problem. It would be reasonable that you could hire another car (insist on a Skyline) at their expense to drive while they make the repairs. You may not need this car, but as you have paid up froint you need to get your car to the top of the priority list. If they are being reasonable, be reasonable back. If they start trying to pull the wool, then it is time to play hardball, but this course will always take longer and cause more stress. Hope you get it sorted soon

polarbearit

Hi mate,

I was going to mail you some stuff, but as you've posted here goes!

I know you don't want to get legal or violent but it sounds like you've put up with quite at lot from them. The Goods (ie. the work) aren't of merchantable quality (Statutary right), you can reject them and have them put the car put back to standard and insist it is checked after by a knowledgable 3rd party.

OR you might prefer to give them a last chance to fix the car, but don't let them have any more money. I guess you payed your money for a 550+BHP Skyline, and you'd like it verifed on a rolling road after they have fixed it! I understand that they will want a running in period before this but don't accept the car unless it is smooth.

Then when the car is fixed you can give it to me (either standard or 550bhp I'm not fussy)! Seems like a good solution really

Jon

Spudgun GTR

cheers fast bloke, some good advice basically i asked for a 550bhp skyline. the car was cosmetically a bag of sh1te when i got it, but the engine was sound.they suggested a list of mods, along with other repairs that needed doing, awd sensor, and aircon fixed etc.they gave me a time period, and i let them get on with it.

lol@polarbearit jon, you've seen a pic of the car, now you know why i'm persevering with it she's gorgeous. however, its all show and no go at the mo[img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
i am speaking to them on the phone today, and will post the result of this tonight.i want to give them one last chance, theyve worked on and owned a number of skylines, with good results. theyre not complete idiots, but, i am starting to wonder

oh, and another thing. yesterday i noticed the alarm/immobiliser isnt working from inside the car anymore with the keys in the ignition could something have been wired in wrongly?
as u can guess, this is very infuriating.

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

Spudgun, I've had a similar experience many years ago with a mini engine. Not quite the same league, I know, but an expensive mistake . They were respected tuners as well but they took my money and things went wrong, infact everything they touched went bad.

I gave up taking it back for rebuilds and in the end I spoke to the manager and asked him if he would be happy with the end result if it was his car, and the tables were reversed. He could only agree with me at that point, but as I started to find out that I knew more than they did about the A series engine, I knew they'd never fix it. I bought another engine from someone else in the end.

The lessson that I learned from this sorry episode is that unless you are 100% convinced that they will be able to do the job in question, then engine modding is best left to breathing/exhaust and other ancilliaries, which can be easily returned to std. Afterall manufacturers spend millions developing the engines but how much does a small workshop spend on develoment to produce monster HP RELIABLY?

This is not to say that there aren't any really good tuners out there because I have seen reliable monster HP engines. It just takes some finding to get a good one IMHO.

F

BugEyed

Spudgun

Good luck with your telephone conversation with the garage today.

Having thought about my comments posted last night, I now feel the need to add a caveat. If you choose to get heavy with the garage you may well lose their good will which you require to get them to sort it out. Also, if you have to resort to the law, does the business have sufficient assets to meet your claim if you win? Working with a small supplier is different to working with a large organisation. If this was IM, you could rely on them to fix the problem as they have their reputation to defend, and have the financial resources to meet any court order.

It may be better to choose to work with them to fix the problems.

Good luck.

Duncan

Spudgun GTR

i had time to reread the posts today before i phoned the tuners.
i decided on the constructive approach. the reason for this, was that the cars of ours theyve worked on over the past 12 months, theyve always done a good job of it with no problems, and we've always got on. so my luck was gonna run out at some point, so to speak.

this is what theyve offered....
monday, take engine out, do cylinder leak down test, strip turbos off and send away to turbo specialist. theyre gonna strip the engine regardless of the leak down test, to put their minds at rest.
full diagnosis of engine and turbos by the end of next week.i will then be given a definate date for the car. it will be run in for the remaing 400 miles by them, dynoed, all other probs(awd,aircon) sorted, and this should be finished in a couple of weeks time.
basically, they will hand me the keys to a run in, 100% sorted 550bhp gtr in a couple of weeks. a firm date will be set once theyve heard from the turbo specialist next week.
i am not being charged for any further work, and have been offered the use of a free coutesy car(sorry, punto not scooby ha ha!)

i have all the above in an email from the boss. i spoke to him today, and he couldnt have been more apologetic. ive known him for the past year and he's sincere, and thats the truth. i think his offer is fair

i will post more on the progress, but hopefully alls well that ends well.

Luke

Spudgun Gtr

Nice one, Hope it does work out for you and the Company doing the work.

W9GTR

This is why my car is currently at Middlehurst being properly sorted. You pays yer money. This upgrade at Middlehurst would cosy circa 9K.
Me I`ll stick with the scouse
Picking it up tomorrow with new AP`s and sorted ECU fault

Spudgun GTR

W9GTR
your right, ive heard that middlehurst are very good, and AFAIK, nissan approved. theyre also not cheap.
if i had a dogs bollocks r34,then thats who i'd use. as it happens, my r33 was a complete shed when i got it, and cost just over 14k.ive spent approx 4k on bodywork/wheels, which were badly needed, and approx 6k on engine mods.
this was all i could afford, its left me a bit skint, but i adore this old car. i will gladly post pics when i have 'em ready. she looks sweet
i'm optomistic at the moment. i think these tuners, who have a decent reputation, will pull it out of the bag, heres hoping eh?