ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Yeah they have huge power increases from days of yore, but for what? Hardly anything down in "useable" rev ranges. And what happened to the proper torque?

Torque is what you want, nice and low down in the rev range at 1500-2000rpm, staying there 'till 5000rpm. Not this lethargic "wait til you've got to at least 3000rpm+ nonsense. Emissions strangled petrol engines making them gutless until high revs, add to that over-tall gearing for sake of "economy" and comfortable "cruising".

Dump the lardy weight of all modern cars. Hot hatches, exec stuff, shopping trolleys all weigh far too much,

No wonder I struggle to find a desirable modern car

Look at the weight of a New Golf Gti versus a pug 205 gti...

1256kg vs. 900 kg

Then add to that lack of real low down grunt and tall gearing, take away 80% of the suspension/steering feedback for sake of "comfort" and we have the nations most boring "sports" cars ever produced.

I even find "warm" Turbo diesels are more appealing in real world driving than anything currently out there that runs on petrol, so things most be getting really bad. And I hate Turbos!

KiwiGTI

Caterhams, Lotuses, Nissan 350ZX??????

First time I've heard a Golf called a sports car.

Bubba po

Doesn't really apply to the Impreza, though, does it?

And why do you hate turbos?

This is a wind-up, isn't it Ali?

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Caterham hardly everyday
Lotus, please...worse than the above

350zx....jury's out on that....need to drive one first - still too heavy

Golf, well, VW called it a GTi. Admittedly new Fsi is rather perky, even if it's the weight of a small house.

anyway, I meant to put sub 25K..will correct it

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Yes

Yawn, wait, yawn, brum brum...whoosh, oh we are moving...at last

and No

Bubba po

But lag's not a problem, suitably modded, is it?

I know that weight is a real killer of an exciting drive, but you make sacrifices for safety, don't you? And as far as cost goes, my 2.0 16V Cavalier that I swapped for the scoob cost nearly 17,000 new ten years ago and it wasn't half the car.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

For me lag is a big problem, oh how I miss the days when your could just floor the throttle and the power was there ready and waiting. I seriously considered a supercharger conversion at the expense of peak overall output. However, I don't like spending silly money on mods that will make my car unsellable.

Cavalier and Scoob mentioned in same sentence shocker!

<thud>

Although just to enlighten...drive a 1995 bog standard Impreza GL 2wd....you'd be very suprised...handles and drives just like a 1.6 Cavelier


.

tuscan57

oh so my standard 390bhp(yes out the box) 2year old(ish) sports car aint fun?????????? mmmmmmmm think not!

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

To me it is

Dracoro

Go buy a diesel then. 'Proper' sports cars thrive on revs (like racecars do), not the other way round. Let's look at the best hot hatches around. Clio - a revver, Type R hondas - revvers, MK 2 golf 16v - revver, most other 16v hatches of past and present - revvers. I'm sure there are many others.

Now lets look at 'gti's that 'arent', golf best example but it has low down torque and not that keen a revver.

Anyway, it's not the 'revability' that's the issue, its (as you point out) WEIGHT. That's whats making modern cars less fun.

Oh, and why 'less than £25'? The above is happening with all cars in all price brackets.

Want fun, buy s2000s, 350Z, MX5, Caterfields!, Radicals, Ariel Atoms etc.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Midlife Crisis?

carl

Yes, but with the exception of the 350Z these are all high-revving screamers -- none of them has that low-down usable power.

For that, without forced induction, you need a big engine in a small-ish car. Which means you're looking at a Boxster, any TVR, new Marcos, etc.

Type R

Elise 111s or 1.8 or 111r and VX220 Turbo both fit the bill. I use mine everyday.

Patt@firstime

A mate of mine has had a TVR Griffith, Subaru Impreza P1, Mitsi Evo 6 Xtreme etc etc in the past and said the same to me about not knowing what to buy next (needs to mage quick and fun were the main things) he has just picked up his VX220 turbo and he loves it (in red with black wheels) and looks ace

Matt

Jap2Scrap

TBH, I know what's being said here. I swear I used to have more fun in a 130BHP 3.0 Capri than I do in any of the stuff I've had recently - MR2, GT4, Supra.. The Saxo is an exception to the fun factor but shamefully it's FWD so powerslides are not easy

Maybe it's knowing that what you were wrapped in cost a couple of hundred quid rather than a few grand. Maybe it was youthfull recklessness, but I have vivid memories of snaking violently up the high street in southampton, past New York, New York nightclub with the whole queue cheering.. the downside being the guy in the back crapped himself and ripped the headlining down trying to find something to hang onto.

Oh the good old days.

Of course I drive like an old git now and bemoan those who drive stupidly, but we were all young once.

Type R

I agree, when searching for a replacement I couldnt find a Hot Hatch that gave me that thrill I used to get.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

You missed the point - real world driving...not race cars on a track. Who wants to wait til 5000rpm for some valve lift gizmo to kick in? First few runs it's great fun, but the novelty value wears out very fast with me.

Warm diesels, as much torque as they have, rely too much on turbocharging to provide output....as I said...I hate any type of turbo. Most Tdis don't pull properly until 2000rpm, then power and torque starts to drop off at 4000rpm - a 2500rpm powerband is a bit of a pain (like Vtecs and the like), even with the superior torque levels.

This is not about 0-60 and top speed, or peak power output it's instant on-tap power and response in any gear that no turbo engine can give.

As said, I'm perfectly in agreement, what we need is lightweight tin cans with huge normally aspirated engines.

The old Westfield SEights, springs to mind but it's un-useable on the road and real world day to day driving, and a pity you need to spend thousands on the engine to get it to perform like it should (don't start me on the Rover V8's failings). TVR always had their ideas in the right place, pity they sacrifice too much reliability, and we're out of the new car price bracket anyway.

Perhaps the yanks were on to something with their under-engineered 5.0+litre engines afterall - pity they messed it all up with the weight, handling and slush-o-matics.

screechmr2

you can't really compare the 205 gti to the new golf - they are different cars, ones a family hatch the other's a supermini. as far as i can remember 'sports' cars of old such as the peugeot gti and golf aren't exactly torquey, my uncle just sold his mk2 gti last week and i can't say that i'd consider it as a sports car, more a warm hatchback.

it seems the only cars you consider to be sports cars have lazy v8 engines, but then they tend to run out of puff at 5k so they're not exactly sports cars then more a cruiser

Patt@firstime

Agree that there 2 very different cars

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

The golf vs pug was purely to compare weight. Notice how the mentioning of torque was in a seperate paragraph

I would have compared a Mk1 golf vs Mk5 but couldn't find the kerb weight at the time.

Patt@firstime

Ah right

Patt@firstime

C-O-R-N-E-R!!!

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Again your missing the problem with real world drivability. Look at the age old sports cars. TR5a and TR6 - more or less a truck engine with fuel injection, XK120, 150 and E-type the XK engine was never a revver.

Heres the piste de la resistance - Sunbeam tiger, or what about an AC cobra?

Lazy low revving engines not sporty?

And before you say they are all roadsters and not sports cars...I'll throw in the GT6 for good measure

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Just to put fairness back..I found the weight of a MK1 Golf Gti (well at least i think I have)....

840kgs - lighter than the pug! Although other sources say 900kg, so it's more or less the same

Dracoro

I see the point you are trying to make but it's from YOUR perspective and what YOU like. This is fair enough as it's what you prefer. I love high revvers and lnon revving torque cars alike, the difference it how you drive it. I had an S2000 and the key to it is no to 'wait' untill it hits vtec but to keep it up there in the first place then there's no waiting. Given a good gearbox like the S2000 has and it's a great fun combination. Now I have a westie (2.0 16v 190bhp) which is more torquey and I can go everywhere in 6th gear if I want to but that's boring. I do wish for a higher redline a lot though as 6500 is too low Lot's of torque low down AND high revving n/a would be great but most I know are £££££ (M series beemers etc.). The advantage of the vtec is that you can get good economy keeping it out of vtec and it's light.

Regardless, there's one thing that both the S2000, westies, tvr etc. offer and that's FUN which is what you're after yes? Far away from boring as you can get. Most of the time all the fun cars have one thing in common and it's not the powerplant or delivery style but weight (or lack of) and that's what makes sports cars fun.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Point taken As I said, I personally got tired of it rather quickly. Although an NSX is a totally different kettle of fish, but we're out that flipping new car price bracket

What about 1st gear, or when your not in the mood to thrash to the redline in every gear?

I'm after fun, but useable everyday fun, so when I'm bustling round town I'm not constantly stiring the gearbox. Don't get me wrong, I love like to change gear and heel and toe when I can on the open roads or island infested 70limit dual carriageways. But it's so annoying if I get bogged down if I happen to be in a too high gear. I know the solution is to stay in the low gears, but it would be so nice if there was the flexibility so that shift points wasn't so critical. There is the odd exception when used with good gearing ratios, but you can still get caught out.

But yes that's a small chunk of the cake in driveability.

Weight is my top pet hate.

Power steering is another hate of mine - but I know that I'm pretty much alone on that one

carl

You can get an early NSX (up to about '96) for <£25k. The very early ones didn't have power steering, either

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I know....we happen have one too

AshleyJ WRX

If having to keep revs high and knocking the nuts out of the rev range is a problem to you Ali for gods sake dont drive a F1 car you will hate it.

And (only my opinion) who cares if a sports car can be used for every day!!!

Brendan Hughes

I just learned that my colleague has ordered a new SLK with a 3.5 litre engine.

May I also bring up my perennial favourite, the MCoupe - now yours for within that price range. (But I'm still stunned by the apparent kerb weight of it though).