Jap2Scrap

Me and the girlfriend are looking at getting a new car in the new year. She's currently in a Clio 1.4 Sport and I'm in a Saxo VTS. She comes from a long line of French motors, Citroen AX, Pug 106 and Clio being her last 3 cars and my last 3 before the VTS were all Jap motors - Supra Mk3, MR2 Mk2 and Gen 5 Celica GT4.

Now the idea is to sell both the motors we've got and get something to share. She's got her eye on a Clio 182 and I quite fancy the CTR.. I firmly believe the build quality of Jap cars over French is enough to win the argument but she wants a more objective argument.

So I'd be interested in the opinions of anyone who's driven either.

By the way a scooby is out of the question - My sister has a classic, her brother has a bugeye and my dad's got a Forester S Turbo, so they've been done to death in our families

zoton

To kick things off. I like the Type R but wouldn't buy one I hated the 'electric' pas. I am sure it's something you get used to but it felt like it was letting me turn the wheel to roughly where I wanted it.

The Clio looks great drives nicely but isn't going to last as long if thats a consideration. We nipped out in a 182 last weekend and after having done 238 miles this car had at least two trim problems.

That said the Renault great value and both are great fun I'm sure.

I guess advice from those who own them will help a bit more

davyboy

To be fair, there is a fair difference in price.

You will be able to get a Clio 182 (with cup packs) new for just over 13k. The CTR with A/C will cost just over 17k, and the dealers will not move on price.

It is a better car in terms of quality of finich/interior.....IMO just not as much fun to drive.

I also think the 182 in racing blue looks great.....there is a new "cup" version of the 182 coming out soon too.

richs2891

Ok slightly biased here as I've got a CTR, Not sure what Zoton talking about with the electric PAS, - yeah its not the best but getting the tracking properly done at ABP motorsports does help it a lot. It takes a bit of time to get used to it but then so does all new cars.
Looked at a Clio but did not consider it due to crap dealers, French build quality and reliability, dodgy elctrics in all Clios etc.
Just my two pence

Richard

FrenchBoy

CTR
I drove a CTR yesterday for the first time.
I've always wanted to try one out but I found it very dissapointing.

The driving position is great, the gearbox is very slick and the steering wheel is nice. Apart from that it was an appaling mess of a car.

The ride quality is very harsh and begins to grate after a very short time. The engine I found to be a complete pain in the **** - absolutely gutless under 6k revs and then only luke warm when in the vtec zone.
You really have to thrash the **** off it to get anything out of it (and even then it leaves you wondering why you bothered)

I also found the handling to be just as challenging. The car feels very nervous with loads of torque steer. Going fast in this car was a bit of a white knuckle affair where you never really know what the car is going to do next as it bumps and steers all over the road. And of course its not a car for going fast with passengers as it makes for a very uncomfortable experience.

I wouldnt mind getting this car out on the track but no way would i choose it as a daily driver.

Clio 182.

I havent driven the 182 but i have heard nothing but great things about it.
I owned a mark 1 Clio 172 before my scoob and it was a great car that i was sorry to see go. So much so that the missus has one now.

The handling on the 172 is pretty good (much better than the scoob actually). It has a great little chassis that is very chuckable. It isn't nervous and despite being a firm ride, its a very comfortable daily drive.

In terms of outright pace there isnt a lot in it between the 2 cars, but the Clio's power is much more usable and far more accessible. For me, I know i'd feel more comfortable going fast in the Clio rather than the Civic.

The mpg on the clio was brilliant aswell, i never got it under 31mpg.

With regards to reliablity, I only had problems with the power steering and that was covered by the warranty. I coudnt comment on the Honda, but i suspect they are pretty bullet proof.

Overall, as you can guess, my vote is very much with the Clio. The CTR is too much of a hooligan for my liking and I think your missus will prefer the Clio aswell.

Either way, coming from the cars you mentioned you'll love having a bit of power under your right foot.

Clarebabes

I drove both recently during test drives. I know it's only a test drive, but all the same..... you're asking for opinions, so I shall give mine.

CTR is great, well built, not too bad in the looks department, but somehow I felt that I wasn't involved enough in the driving of it. It may be the electronic PAS, whatever, it felt like a big car with a big engine in it. You have to rev both quite hard to get the power out, but it seemed more of an effort due to the lack of involvement.

Clio isn't as well made, true. It isn't as heavy feeling and seems alot nippier lower down the revs. Great growl to the engine which helps with the feeling of speed and comfortable.

CTR doesn't come with practically ANYTHING as standard. You need to buy the fog lights, air con, decent stereo etc...... whereas the Clio comes with that and more. And the £4-5K price difference.... well, what can you say? Honda won't discount at all and we would have had to pay list price near enough for the demonstrator!

If it wasn't for the fact I got my Cup for such a bargain, we'd have gone for the 182. It's a nice car and dare I say it, a nice car for a lady to be in

My opinion, feel free to disregard!
Clare

Senior_AP

Octavia VRS. Remap, 1642bhp and 7976946978967829878239 ft/lb torque.

All for 5 grand.

davyboy

wwhoooooooooo jabba remap!

anc-sti

My prevous car was a ctr, great little car tried the 172 when looking for the car and found it a bit lacking in quality but still good value. The civic is a great all round hatch, the gearbox is brilliant still miss it and the vtec engine is loads of fun once you learn how to get the best out of it. Down points for me were, handling in the wet and noise, wet is just a feature of a front wheel drive car and the noise is mainly tyre/road noise from the bridgestones.

Loads of fun mind in the dry is sticks to the road like glue.

mw2655

ctr, the windscreen wipers sweep the wrong way on the 182.

Dream Weaver

French cars rule

Jap2Scrap

"French cars rule"

They do? I have one and it does far less than rule

I was kinda hoping for more positive praise of the CTR I gotta say.. I guess it's as the gf said and the extra 3-4K just isn't justified..

Might have to fall back on my "It must be better because it costs more.." ploy..

It's a shame that the clios all look the same thru the range. I know the Clio now has the twin exhausts exiting the rear bumper but let's face it that's hardly dramatic. Has anyone seen or got a pic of the full 'cup' spoiler kit cos I'm not sure whether I've seen it or not. It might be pretty anonymous.

Nick_CTR

In my own opinion I would go for the Civic Type-R the first major plus point is the Japanese built quality, a few friends of mine have owned French cars and I have heard to many horror stories to put me off for a life time.



I have just bought a low mileage 30th Anniversary Civic Type-R and am getting on with it very well yes its true the engine is very rev happy but by Christ when it comes on song it don’t just sound fantastic it goes like a bullet. The car feels very shore footed when it’s at it limit which without any form of ESP is very reassuring and is very rewarding to drive.



Another key point is to me is the Clio’s all look the same a 1.2 dynamic with a set of cup wheels and who knows what you’re driving, when you’re spending this kind of money on a car surely you want it to look a little bit naughty every time to walk up to it!



One other point the Civic’s gearbox is out of this world!



Nick
type-r.org

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

How about a Seat Cupra R: Great build quality, tidy handling, firm, but not crashy ride, and a 225Bhp Turbo engine. not bad looking either! Best of all, the price: 18k for the 225 model and about 15k for the 180bhp detuned turbo model. Take a test drive.

Dracoro

Don't write either off. Drive both then make your own mind up.

I imagine the 182 is ultimately more fun but build isn't great. The ctr will prolly be easier to live with and reliable/well built.

The CTR is the class above BTW. It's bigger etc.

The Magnet

Having previously owned a Clio 172 and now owning a CTR I would have to say that the CTR is the better car.

Quality - better (172 used to rattle like a b*****d)

Engine and gearbox - superb, however you do need to adjust your driving style but once you get used to it you never tire of wringing it's neck all the way to the limiter

Economy - CTR not as good, approx 30mpg

Looks - down to personal taste - OK CTR not the last word in style but hey it's not bad either.

Handling - I think you could get away with more in the 172, however I have yet to visit ABP and get the fast road set up. This I understand improves things no end.

Performance - hardly anything in it in the real world. I would say that once above 90mph CTR has the edge and continues to pull well into 3 figures.

Huge

Just changed from a VTS into a brand new CTR (less than £16k incl aircon ).

Would never go back to a Citroen - the build quality was appalling and in less than 55k miles I had - new back box / centre section, radiator, fuel pump, windscreen washer pump, battery - and when I sold it (2230 on Sunday!) it was suffering from a failing gear linkage and poor starting which even the local Citroen dealership couldn't fathom.

French car? In my opinion they're cheap for a reason.

My CTR has a 90k miles warranty, and although it isn't perfect, with the miles I do a car has to have reliability as well as driveability.

Still got the STi8 if I need a bit of extra noise & go

Hugh

Riprock

If you must have a type R go for the real one .......Integra type R....mint 3 Year old one for 11 bags of sand.PROPER Vtec noise and limited slip dif to give it handling you wont believe.Plus it looks better in a retro kind of way .Go on....you know it makes sense

Yours

Dash

Jap2Scrap

Don't think I haven't suggested it Dash... I'd love one. But she wants newer or new (fair enough, it's our first chance to do it) and the DC5 is wayyyyyyyyyyyyy over budget

CTR

Cant help with the comparison, but owned a CTR. Gotta love that engine and gearbox, or maybe not, you might hate it. Some people hate it, some love it(me included). High level of road noise, but swapping to Toyos gets rid of some of that. The steering you will get used to, but it does feel like you could fully turn the wheel at high speed with little resistance. Personally think the new models understeer more than the older models, but do you like LOO

what would scooby do

The rear spoiler on a CTR makes a strange humming sound when going over 140MPH

anyhoo - you gotta ask why you can't get them cheap.. 'cos the demand outstrips supply, 3 month waiting list..

The_Teg_Man

I'm surprised the CTR responses have been so negative, to say the CTR is absolutely gutless below 6.5k is just plain wrong, unless your daily driver is a Noble.......

I've never driven the Clio, but I think they both have their +'s and -'s, the one that would always swing it for me is build quality. I have heard alot of horror stories about Renault build quality and dealers, and this perhaps slightly tainted view is hinted at by the usual JD Power surveys etc. I would not want a car costing 12k+ to give me alot of mechanical hassle and things dropping off.

Performance wise, the stats show that each is fairly impressive considering the running costs. Neither car is anything more than a hot hatch, but they definitely do what they were designed to do.

Either car is going to give you a big

03-CTR

compared to most cars i’ve found the ctr a difficult car to drive effectively and i’m still way off. i can appreciate what frenchboy has said (in some ways true) but the ctr takes some time to get used to in order to maximise its performance.

the car can become crashy but have found that this is largely dependent on throttle control and choice of line on different road surfaces. most euro cars will let you plough through anything with your foot planted to the floor but you really do have to keep your eye on the road a-la mac stylee if you want to make good progress. i’ve also found that you need to yield to the car and relax into the drive in order to drive it quickly. gripping the controls for dear life and attempting to wring the performance out of the car is a disaster waiting to happen and a recipe for a massive headache.

not sure what the clio is like but i’ve always liked them for some reason. i think they look great and they’ve had nothing but decent write-ups but the thing that puts me off is the reputation (quality, dealers etc).

Diablo

You'll never appreciate or fully utilise the effectiveness of a honda vtec engine on a test drive.

And anyone who says they are gutless below the changeover point either hasn't actually driven on, or expects miracles of an engine that produces around 100 bhp per litre, revs to 8000 rpm plus and yet has excellent driveability from tickover.

Oh, and has bulletproof reliability thrown in for huge mileages.

IMHO the typeR hondas are worth the money for the drivetrain alone.

The fact that in the real world, day to day, there will be nothing in it in the handling and performance stakes makes it a no brainer as to which one I'd rather live with.

The clio is a fast version of a ****e french shopping trolly, the base one is what, £6,000? The CTR is a fast version of a quality engineered hatch.

You pays your money and makes your choice.

davyboy

We took our choice....a 10k cup!

Cheap and cheeful!

Oh and the Honda salesman was a coorker - "The Clio was never designed to do track days, the Civic was designed as a racing car first and then converted to a road car, that why A/C is a dealer fit"

Yeah, OK..........lesson 1 - know when to stop talking!

Gutmann pug

... dont you just love those car salesmen

wilf

My Ha'penny

The CTR is an nice car undoubtedly but what is emerging from this thread (and obvious from my own experience as a 172 Cup owner) is that the performance and fun factor in driving the Renault are accessible right from when you first turn the ignition key and not just when you're thrashing it (as in the CTR).

Sure my Cup rattles from time to time but so did my scoobs and nothing has broken or fallen off in the 2 years I have owned it. I dont have to be driving at seriously illegal speeds to enjoy it unlike I did with my previous P1 and EVOs I have tried.

The renault is seriously cheap to run and much cheaper to buy than the CTR. I agree its slightly disappointing that it doesnt look too much different from the standard car (although the flared front arches help) but its part of the fun being able to drive round in a Q car.

For me the 172/182 for me captures the essence of a hot hatch. The only way you will be able to decide for yourself is to drive both.

FrenchBoy

On reflection I may have been a bit harsh on the CTR. Calling it an "appaling mess of a car" was a bit OTT.
My apologies to any CTR fans. No doubt its a very capable car and most of its 'failings' were more due to my unfamiliarity with the driving style required to get the most out of it.
At the end of the day, a fast car is a fast car and that's what we're all here for.
Cheers and Good luck!

Nick_CTR

Trust me you need more than a test-drive to start to understand any car, fact is I bought a Toyota Corolla T-Sport before the Civic Type-R as over a short test drive it felt like the right choice at the time. I owned the car for just over a year and a half and believe it or not it was a very capable car not that much slower than the Honda in a straight line.

But now after only owning the CTR two weeks today I can tell you it so much more fun to drive but in the 15 minute test drive I had prior to buying the Toyota I didn’t notice it as much as I am now hence the purchase!

As an all rounder the Corolla is a superb car and I did enjoy driving it but the Civic moves the game on one step further with a much more racecar like feel, the turn in is fantastic and the way it manages to put is power down out of a tight corner is unreal for a front wheel drive car!

I doubt you would be upset whichever route you choose to go down, both will be rewarding cars to drive. Best advice would be to give both pieces of machinery a good drive and take your choice after that, let us know what route you go down!

p.s The Civic's Better lol

imi

Honda Vtecs are a lot of fun to drive once you get to know how to drive them and the CTR is no different.