tiggers

Raining cats and dogs this morning so everyone's taking it easy on the motorways etc. apart from Mr. BMW 3 series coupe.

I was exiting the motorway onto a roundabout and waiting to turn left when he comes flying up the slip road to go right. He decides he can pull onto the roundabout just quick enough to miss the traffic that is already on it.

Of course he's now carrying way too much speed for the conditions, but instead of bailing out down the sliproad and back on to the motorway he attempts to carry on making the right turn round the roundabaout. Well the back end of his car starts to go so he's on the brakes (Doh!) - fatal mistake and his beautiful new BMW swaps ends before coming to rest in the crash barrier on the outside of the roundabout. Just for good measure both front and back hit the barrier as he's spinning to a stop.

I would estimate a good £5K's worth of damage, but at least he didn't hit anything else. He was OK as he got straight out of the car looking somehwat shaken and embarrassed.

It bewilders me how a few people aren't able to adjust their driving for the conditions, but I guess some people just don't realise what can happen until it's too late.

Regards,

tiggers.

Cosworth427

BMW's tend to detach the driver from reality.

emthreewannabee

If only he'd been in a Scoob eh? He wouldn't have lost control

Skittles

"BMW's tend to detach the driver from reality"

Any particular reason, or just a throw away comment?

tiggers

Well actually due to the nature of the inherent differences between the 4WD car and the RWD car and assuming standard set up for both Scoob and BMW he may well have stood more chance in the Scoob.

Purists always cite RWD as the true driver's machine and I'm sure in the right hands they can be, but in the hands of someone who stomps on the brakes when his 'ultimate driving machine' lets him down and starts to break away then it's always going to be barrier city for them as was amply demonstrated this morning.

Anyway this really wasn't meant to be another anti-BMW thread, just an observation on how some people are unable to adjust their driving for the conditions. The fact he was in a BMW is mainly irrelevant other than backing up my own personal theories which I'm sure you've heard enough of

Regards,

tiggers.

Dracoro

Then again, if he was in scoob he would've had a greater feeling of invincibility and would've been going even faster and had an even bigger crash, possibly involving others.

Cosworth427

The mentality is, "B.M.W" = Performance, wind, rain or shine. nuff said.

stevencotton

Recent article in New Scientist showed there are a lot more accidents in wet weather just after a dry spell than during prolonged wet weather. Seems a lot of people have trouble adjusting to conditions, no matter what car they drive

blip

Tiggers - serious question here, not aimed to provoke, but how would a Scoob have got out of that same 'predicament' - eg. driver makes a mistake, comes barrelling into roundabout way too fast for wet conditions, needs to get round somehow, etc. In a fast 'lift-off' situation on wet roads would a Scoob have done any better?

Since I've owned my Scoob (first one) I have had very few occasions to drive it on really wet roads, but this morning had a journey in the wet and was surprised by how readily my Scoob wanted to understeer at a particular roundabout.

I was alone, the roundabout was deserted and I purposely came in a bit 'hot', eased off the gas to get the front back on line. This had the predictable effect and then progressed into mild understeer with the back starting to slide. It felt basically as if the car was drifting/skating for a second or two at both ends. I wasn't really going that fast so I'm just wondering what would happen at much higher speeds. Surely I would have just slid/drifted off the road and into the surrounding fields?

Isn't the limiting factor how much rubber is in contact with the road? And Scoobs don't seem to have particularly wide tyres compared to a lot of cars.

Genuine question from someone still getting used to 4WD

Duck_Pond

SteveCotton - I think that some of the accidents caused from wet weather after a long dry period are down to the road surface.

The dry weather leaves a coating of dust on the road, which when rained upon, makes a very slippery layer on top of the road. This is more slippery than simply having rain on a clean road.

As the rain persists, this layer is gradually washed away.

DazV

£5k to repair ? You're kidding aren't you ? Thats WAY too cheap for a BMW!

I scratched my wheel arch recently - literally a 4 inch scratch on the arch. Cost to repair from my friendly BMW bodyshop ? £768

On another note, I can't believe all the bollocks I read about "BMW drivers"



[Edited by DazV - 9/22/2003 3:01:13 PM]

tiggers

You've kind of just answered your own question. The Scoob (in standard trim) tends towards understeer when it starts to let go on a corner (all things being equal). With most cars when you lift off from an understeer the car will come back into line. RWD cars however are generally by their very nature prone to oversteer and the consequences when you lift off are even worse oversteer. If you then hit the brakes it's generally whirly whirly time.

I used to have an Elise and that was seriously interesting in the wet - lift off at you peril.

And just to reiterate - this is not me having a go at BMW (for once ) as I'm sure in the hands of a skilled driver you can go just as fast in the wet with RWD. My point really was that this guy seemed totally unable to judge the conditions or handle his car and hence paid the price.

tiggers.

tiggers

OK then make it £15K to repair based on those prices

tiggers.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Glad someone pointed out that the same driver would have probably doen the same in a scoob.

It's the driver not the car, and a scoob can swap ends as easily as a beamer if driven badly. Especially on slippery wet roads.

Although inherantly RWD is more prone and FWD or 4WD (as I recall snaking all over the place when I did a right turn off an island too enthusiasticly in an XJS v12 manual a few months back )

Cosworth427

Fools, it's not the driver. It is the effect that the "Ultimate Driving Machine" has on it's decerning drivers. Even if it is a bargain bucket 318I Coupe.

If people drove cars from the 60's and 70's, they'd know they are just mere mortals with lackluster skills. It's a reality check on wheels. Unlike a BMW or a Mercedes.

Rob16v

No! No! No! 4WD cars can withstand much more loading in corners before they let go, compared to a RWD. Mathematical fact. That's precisely why rally cars are no longer driven by the rear wheels.

A RWD car will always swap ends before a 4WD.

Rob

Cosworth427

..




[Edited by Cosworth427 - 9/23/2003 11:40:12 AM]

image doctor

I wonder how many Impreza's we will see that have bitten the dirt this year? There were a few last year!

I guess that'll be the fault of the owners who believe there car is the best in the "twisties" and "wet"

id

evoviifan

I don't think if the BMW driver had been in a scoob it would have made any difference...go too fast round a corner in the wet, and you will crash.

I know my limits (most of the time) and tend to really slow down in the wet. Doesn't matter how good a car is at "twisties" or "wet" it is still so easy to over do it.

I once had a nasty lift off oversteer type moment in my clio 16V (phase 1) in the wet...strange for a front wheel drive car????

Anyway the whole thing totally s**t me up. I did a full 270 across the wrong side of the road at about 60 mph...my lucky day, nothing coming the other way and I stopped on the grass with no damage!

Ever since then I have really shown more respect to wet conditions. One lucky escape for me has totally changed my whole driving style in the wet.

I still have fun in my car in the dry. But I am a wimp in the wet.

evoviifan

i sold the clio not long after the above...lost all trust in it.

MooseRacer

No! No! No! 4WD cars can withstand much more loading in corners before they let go, compared to a RWD. Mathematical fact. That's precisely why rally cars are no longer driven by the rear wheels.

A RWD car will always swap ends before a 4WD.



Just incase Cosworth's reply didn't stand out enough - that's plain and simple NOT TRUE.

Flat 4x4

I've owned 15 different 4x4 road cars (not off-roaders) because they give you more saftey margin to play with on slippy roads and more chance of keeping pointing in the right direction when things go wrong than a RWD BMW. FACT

MGJohn

stevecotton WROTE:

>Recent article in New Scientist showed there are a lot more accidents in wet weather just after a dry spell than during prolonged wet weather. Seems a lot of people have trouble adjusting to conditions, no matter what car they drive<

SEEMS A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE TROUBLE ADJUSTING TO CONDITIONS.

Spot on observation although it's not merely a simple question of adjustment as there's more to this than first meets the eye. After a prolonged spell of dry weather like we've had for most of this summer, several millimetres of brake dust, oil drips, rubber dust, grease you name it will cover most lanes in a dirty film mix of this stuff. It continues to accumulate and without frequent rain more typical of a UK summer, is not washed away. First decent bit of rain renders such surfaces an immediate ice rink with frequent consequences like those that started this thread.

Many drivers of modern cars are isolated from these experiences until they experience them big time. Those car drivers with powered two wheeler experience would rarely be caught out this way ..... like many experienced drivers, I'm a poor passenger but am usually a more relaxed one when the driver also has two wheeled experience too. Even if I'm unaware of this fact it usually becomes obvious. There is a difference. No doubt in my mind, to have ridden a motorcycle regularly and survive UK weather and traffic conditions gives many an additional sense where road surfaces and conditions are concerned. Few modern car only experienced types have this 'additional sense' call it what you will....

Skittles

"4WD cars can withstand much more loading in corners"

Simply untrue. Please explain how a 4wd car has better loading on a corner.

Spudgun VI

i find ford focus drivers far worse than bmw drivers imho. just because they got good reviews for handling etc, everyone thinks theyre colin mcrash driving a wrc version
ive owned most of the jap cars, and had 3 beemers previously. got an evo6 and a 328 coupe at the mo', quite frankly i think for everyday use a beemer is hard to beat. not a popular opinion i imagine, but its my honest one.
theyre fun to drive, comfortable, fantastic motorway cruisers, and pretty good reliability wise. the e36 3 series was constantly one of the best selling cars in the uk, so its logical that a fair amount of wallys bought 'em (just like focus'), therefore tarnishing all with the same brush.

john banks

Any thoughts on how a DSC equipped BMW might cope? Not defying the laws of physics of course, but a run of the mill BMW with just ASC+T would presumably only be able to cut power if he was on the power, if the DSC system brakes individual wheels (even when off the power) could it have helped the situation do you think? Is CBC is useless in mid corner wet braking once the thing is sliding?

The 540 I tried with DSC I suspect might have behaved differently? Very impressive system even after driving AWD.

john banks

Please help me understand lift off oversteer with RWD... if you are on the power and oversteering, if you lift off slightly then presumably the oversteer would reduce.... if you lift off sharply then the weight transfers forwards (like braking) and you oversteer even more? So is the rule to balance with gentle throttle adjustments - ie FWD/AWD gentle lift off to quell understeer, RWD gentle lift off to quell oversteer?

My FWD 406 is far worse for LOOS in the wet than the Scooby despite the Scooby having uprated rear ARB, stiffer bits and bobs... is this because the suspension is so soft on the Pug that the weight really shifts forwards?

Just trying to understand where linearity suddenly goes pearshaped and working out how to control it.... sometimes I get caught out, experience and practice I suppose, but oversteer on the road is not something I am confident handling yet, perhaps never should be as it seems a spin is not far away esp in the wet?

Tiggs

john, i have a 540 sport and with the traction on it is very hard to lose the back end more than 1-2ft out of line before it corrects. its not the smoothest way to drive but if you want you could nail it out of every wet roundabout you came accross and still not crash. (switch it off and it slides as you'd expect any rwd 290bp car would)

T

Dracoro

Mathematical fact eh? Go on then, let's hear it.


At a track day earlier in the year, a 4wd saph cossie lost control trying to keep up with me in my RWD S. My car didn't even waver a slightest. But hang on! You say a RWD car will always swap ends before a 4WD. Maybe I just imagined it

Which will 'swap ends' depends on so many factors. How many wheels are driven is just ONE factor. After all 4WD only really 'works' when you are applying power. if you're lifting off, it's pretty irrelevant what wheels are driven until you apply the gas again. So in the case of the original beemer driver, he'd have still lost it in a scoob or suchlike. Basically he LOST GRIP which is as much down to the tyres, suspension etc. rather than the driven wheels.

mista weava

i think MGjohn hit the nail on the head.

the car did NOT simply let go, it is evident that driver error both in judging the conditions and the subsequent action of said when things began to go wrong landed this guy in the armco.

fair enough he may have had cr*p/worn out tyres that could not disperse water effectively, still driver error in my book as he should ensure his tyres ARE in good nick.

this happens at the end of every summer time after time.

Weava