tiggers

OK - I'm a bit bored so it's time to stir up some, hopefully, lively discussion.

Like many others I constantly read on here how person A in car A easily blew away person B n car B and then person C will reply saying that they have car B and have no trouble blowing away car A and so on and so on...

Well it strikes me through my experience on the road and my limited trackday experiences that most of the time it depends on how far the drivers are prepared to go and how good their skills behoind the wheel are. In my opinion it is the driver that matters far more than the car. Now I freely admit that I am at best an average performance driver and although I have had fun on the trackdays I have been on I know I am in no way the next Micahael Schumacher. At least I can admit that and it's a pity some can't. The last corporate trackday I was on I took great pleasure in watching one cocky sales manager driving a Caterham Superlight being severely humbled by one of the instructors who was driving a Polo.

Like I said it's the driver that matters most.

I remember a very interesting article in Evo a few years ago the premise of which was if you spent two whole weeks having snooker tuition you knew you'd never beat Jimmy White, but most us felt that we'd give Eddie Irvine a run for his money with two weeks racing tuition. It seems to me that reading this and other boards that a lot of people think they are great drivers. Well let me ask you this question - do you seriously think that many of you would be quicker round Silverstone in your Scooby's than Michael Schumacher in a standard 1.6 saloon? Deep down you probably think you'd give him a run for his money - well I think not.

So what's the point of my post? Well with this in mind instead of spending masses of money on mods for the cars wouldn't we all be better off spending that money on driving tuition at the various racing schools around the nation. I think we might - what about you?

Regards,

tiggers.

RB5_245

Not just a good driver, any maniac in a polo will blow away a maclaren if willing to overtake blindly and drive on pavements.

No matter how much i spend on driving tuition i'll never beat schumacher in an astramax, but if i have 1000bhp i'll give it a shot!

ScooBabe

Have to agree with you Tiggers.

Its a lot of fun as well when you do out drive people in a clapped out old wreck of a car as well, the look on their faces

Hmmm, me thinks my comments might not go down too well. Ah well, the truth hurts

tiggers

Just to clarify the Polo/Caterham incident.

This was on a trackday on a closed track not public road. The sales manager was bragging all day about how good he was, although his times weren't that impressive. Anyway having spun the Caterham about seven times saying that he was deliberately spinning it for fun when he obviously wasn't one of the younger instrutors told him to give it his best shot.

He suggested he would follow him to allow him to observe his driving ability etc. at first hand. The sales manager rose to the challenge thinking the instructor was going to jump in the other Caterham, instead he climbs into a 1.4 Polo.

The sales manager sensing an easy vistory starts laughing and sets off round the circuit. After the sales guy has done about a third of the lap the instructor sets off in the Polo and they finish with the Caterham crossing the line just in front of the instructor's Polo - obviously he didn't want to pass and cause an accident.

The sales guy's face was a picture and I'll never forget how humbled he looked - damned funny - never heard a peep out of him for the rest of the day thankfully.

Maybe a little childish, but good fun nonetheless.

tiggers.

RB5_245

Did understand what you ment the first time, hopefully though typing that wee novel held back the boredom though. I think there is quite a difference between being good on a circuit and good on the road though. i.e having car control skills and spoting the best lines.

BTW i don't reckon i'd stand a chance after 2weeks training.

tiggers

RB5_245,

No worries - I just like to clarify things - I don't want the racing on the road lobby coming down on me.

Yes the boredom has lifted a little after the novel was published!!! ;-)

Regards,

tiggers.

RB5_245

LOL, nice to see a law abiding citizen who can refrain from responding to the taunts of lesser mortals. Good on you, better man that I!

camk

Got to agree with Tiggers on this too(not often you'll hear that from me ), how much do we spend for 5BHP and 10BHP here and there. The costs often to me look ridiculous for the small gains. I also think the older you get the less manic your driving style is likely to be, given that as you get older you start to realise you're not invincible or immortal

Peace in our time ?

[Edited by camk - 5/26/2003 6:09:18 PM]

RB5_245

well spoken enlightened one. But i'm afraid there's an addiction at hand here. Until they stop making bits i'm not going to stop buying them.....

In my whole lifetime i've never died once, since this is eternity to me i'm immortal, though i'll have to admit not invincable.... still, can work on it though!

johnfelstead

I would kick the crap out of him in those circumstances. But what you say in the rest of the post is pretty true, a large percentage of speed is from the driver, certainly so on track. You still need a good car to go very quickly though.

I was at Donington yesterday, I met up with Gareth Lloyd who is a seriously quick race driver IMHO. Anyway, we were timing some of the races in the Ferrari festival. I would have won the Clasic Ferrari race (race spec Ferrari's cars upto 1990) in my STi, the fastest lap was slower than my average lap on road tyres. Gareth would have come second in the Clasic F1/F5000 race in his race escort cossie. I just thought that was funny. Not sure what it proves.

BOB.T

I'd kick the crap outta schuey too...then I'd get in the scoob and have a pootle round the track

davyboy

I have spent £500 on a 4 things that gives no bhp gains, but around a track like Donington is equal to an extra 100bhp.

rr_ww

Hmmm

Me in a Sti,
vs Schumacher,
in a 1.6 Saloon,
at Silverstone,
with my reputation?



Silverstone is pretty much a power circuit. Most race/spirit road drivers will tell you its about corner speed that make the difference. Any old fool can floor it through the gears but late braking and maintaining HCS depends on 2 things i) the ability of the driver and ii) the ability of the car. The sti will be far better than a basic car for its setup. Meaning you can corner faster. MS will probably however get a higher CS than you would in the same car so although hed make time back at Silverstone the sheer power advantage of the STI would mean he would be hard pressed to beat you.

This all assumes that you are a resonable driver to start with, not just a "think you are".

IMHO

Brendan Hughes

Bob -

Mycroft

The trouble with boy-racers is that they think they are fast... even the 35year old ones!!!

MGJohn

Where does it say that Herr Schumacher would be a useful wheel twiddler and pedal pusher in a road car? On the few occasions when F1, WRC and other drivers appear head to head, guess who usually emerges in front. Put them all in F1 cars, different story. Horses for courses and all that. Even so, I'd guess he would be a bit useful ..

Back in the 1960s, the likes of Jimmy Clark and Graham Hill (Damon's Dad) when not in their F1 cars would often compete in supporting Touring Car races with impressive and spectacular results. Unlike your Namby Pamby F1 racers of today ....

DuggE4

I don't care what you drive, who you are or what your driving ability is. Get in front of me (White van man!) when i'm going to get my bacon buttie on a cold winters morn and you're going to be history and sorry in any order you please!!!

LOLOLOL

RB5#295

I don't aim this at the Caterham / polo story, but i think generally it's alot easier to hang onto the back of a faster car than it is to get away from a slower one. I know I find it easier to drive fast if I'm following someone else, presumably 'cos I don't have so much worry about how sharp the next bend is or what may be in the road around it.

Different story on the track, but yes, I think I'd need quite a bit of help in terms of power and or handling advantage to beat Schuey round a circuit.

Fen

RB5_245

Agree, this is definetly why some folk can say 'i was all over the back of..... and he couldn't lose me' even if the cars are not matched

tiggers

You see, this is the whole point of what I am saying.

The driver is the leveller in these instances. If most of us were following a top class driver who was prepared to push on then we would be left behind despite the differences in machinery. In the reverse of the situation most of us would not be able to shake off a well driven lesser machine if the driver was that much better than us.

It's the driver and not the car that matters most - the fact that so many of us do get followed quite easily or can follow someone else quite easily goes some way to illustrating this I think.

Regards,

tiggers.

sporty fellaX1

I am not the best driver, infact i doubt if any driver is perfect, but my absolute pet hate is :

NOVA DRIVERS!!

Tarted up Nova's especially driven by snotty nosed teenagers who think they are god's gift to driving

Driving should not be allowed until you reach 25 years old, and then you should have 'P' plates til 30

Nova = road rage instigators

Marky-San

I drive a Nova GSi - sits on 17's, pimp windows, big thumping ICE, best car on the road. It has creamed scoobies, evo's and micra's. Its cool to waste other cars. I'm the best driver in the world too. Just ribbing :P

Hold on, oops...sorry still got my 1.1 Punto with clear indicators.

I think that having a humble car makes you appreciate how much more skill you need to keep the car rolling along with decent momentum. In the scoob you just point and squirt - In the Punto I point and wait....and wait...but I get there using 80% less petrol.

The best moment I had was trying to beat a friend in a 1.2 corsa - it took forever, and to be honest most people probably didnt realise we were going for it cause they cruised past on the motorway- but it was the most fun!!

L55 REP

iTrader: (1)

lol @ marky

along time ago my car broke down <1.6 capri lol><thought it was the dogs danglys at 17> and my mate only had a 958cc b reg micra at his garage so i swaped the insurance over and set off down sum lanes to go and drop a mate home on the way <45-50mph> a 1.1 fiesta cam up behind and as we went around the next bend he droped a gear at started to overtake my mate said " waste him "
so i droped it from top <4th> to 2nd and floored it and the fiesta disapeard in my windscreen lol

needles to say the day the crapri was back on the road i was a happy man lol <sad but at least i wouldnt look stupid against a fiesta>

so in away tiggs i cant agree with its the <just> the driver
as i dont think it would have made any difference who was in the micra be it M_S or T_B or my nan, the fiesta would have pulled away.......

lol

IwantAscoob

If two very good drivers are racing on a st8 road with evenly powered cars, it comes down to knowing when to change gear etc, as most ppl think you have to take a car to its redline to get max power, when this is far from the case, alot of cars lose power way before the redline, so good gear changing in a st8 race is vital.

racing through twisties, means you have to know when to brake, get the best line in through the corner, and back on the throttle quick enoungh not to swing wide or lose it, you either have it or you dont.

L55 REP

iTrader: (1)

dont think any gear changing in a 958cc micra will get you sum g-force though lol

IwantAscoob

may get you to cash and carry's quicker, stock up for the cornershop.

RB5#295

Well, to a point but what I was saying I guess is that on the road I could drive a given route faster with Richard Burns in front of me than with a clear road. That I'd need a big advantage in terms of machinery to allow me to stay with him is your point (and I agree that I would)

Fire me down a country road behind most folks on here, me in a slightly less capable car, and I'd have a good chance of keeping up with the car in front, but then that goes the same the other way - I don't think I' be able to lose most peeps on here if I was in front, even with a better car.

Fen

hades

Depends what sort of A to B:

Down a straight piece of road or empty motorway, if you are prepared to/have room, the car is the main factor - schumi in a 1.4 polo would still only get it up to 110mph (or whatever they do). Quite a lot of roads are straight enough that the car would make the bigger difference if you can open it up and are prepared to leave it floored. Away from the traffic lights, the driver will tip the balance if the cars are fairly closely matched. One guy has to be a muppet for a fast car to lose to a slow one.

In traffic, it is mainly down to how far the driver will push it / how stupid they're prepared to be.

Round a circuit or on an empty twisty road (i.e. where it's fun) is an entirely different matter. Brakes and handling will often make more difference than all out power on the track, but the driver will definitely be the biggest difference, no question.

I don't doubt that JF in his Impreza would beat Shumi in a 1.6 saloon, but I wouldn't count JF as an ordinary driver. I seem to remember stories about him in a sport beating lots of turbos/Stis etc at a trackday, which kind of backs up the original point.

tiggers

Yeah I shoukd have been more specific - obviously there are going to be some tidy drivers on here as well as us "average Joes".

I am really referring to the average guy many of whom think they would give our Michael a run for his money when in fact he would make them look very silly indeed.

No offence to you Mr. Falstead or any other "useful drivers" who may be lurking on this board (Mr. McRae?, Mr. Burns? j/k ;-) ).

tiggers.

L55 REP

iTrader: (1)

being a sport driver i would have luved to have seen that lol