MAC76

After loads of beautiful Subaru Company cars i am now stuck with a 94M BMW 316 Saloon
Can anyone tell me if it has a hydraulic or cable clutch?? If its cable where does it adjust????
Need help cos its my transport to my new year party and it wont engage gears
Anyone?

martin_reyland

it is hydraulic and i'm sure its not adjustable. it might want bleeding,
martin

RS2100

Hydraulic clutch sir. Has it been left for a while? If so, a bit heath Robinson this, but, start car in 1st gear, with foot on clutch, drive up road until clutch releases. May just be siezed.
If it hasnt been standing, start calling cab firms.

MAC76

Thanks eyeryone......its not been left standing! Does anyone know where to top up the clutch fluid?
Mart

martin_reyland

i might be wrong but i reckon the clutch takes its fluid from the brake reservior, quite near the top if i recall,
martin

MAC76

Ok i have found that bit, any ideas on how to blead it??
It not looking to good for tonight!!

Cosworth427

You could bleed the hydrulics behind the brake discs. Find a flexable drinking straw and a little jar and you can bleed it like that. Make sure you have the right spanner too, BMW has an odd sized release nut.

MGJohn

Does the pedal go to the floor with very little resistance? Or less resistance than when previously working properly? From what little you say and if it has an hydraulic clutch operation, then sounds like your master/slave (or both) cylinder(s) has failed .... worn seals I guess. Bleeding and topping up may work for a while but if M/C or seals have really worn, only a matter of time before you're back to square one with no clutch operation.

Even BMWs wear out ...... Let us know the outcome when you've correctly IDed prob.

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Bleed the hydraulics behind the brake discs????? Its his clutch that doesnt work !!!!!!

MAC76

Wierd! I got in the car this morning and it works????? Not sure what is going on here but thanks everyone for your help!! I will let you know when it goes again!
Mart

Cosworth427

stevie --- His clutch does work, its just he has problems with the pedal that engages it. The pedal uses hydrualic fluid as with the brakes, and he wanted to know how to bleed them. And you do that on the release valve behind the brake discs and drums.

MAC76

Thanks for all your help...........it needs a new clutch apparently....going in tomorrow

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

The clutch does use fluid, and may be fed from the same reservoir as the brakes, but they are 2 completely seperate systems, with seperate master cylinders etc.
The only place to bleed the clutch is at the clutch slave cylinder, which is mounted on the gearbox/bellhousing somewhere.
It has nothing to do with the discs or drums, or anything near them.

MGJohn

>> Thanks for all your help...........it needs a new clutch apparently....going in tomorrow <<

Hmmmm ... it would not be the first time I've known a perfectly serviceable clutch to be replaced (relatively expensive on any car) when all that was really needed was for the hydraulic seals to be renewed and system replenished with fresh fluid (much less costly). Many manufacturers recommend this hydraulic seal/fluid renewal at certain mileage intervals for both brake and clutch systems. (Those of you who habitually wait at long sequence red traffic lights with your foot pressed firmly on the footbrake pedal are accelerating brake seal wear ... and ever longer service intervals lull many into a false sense of security) However, in my experience seal renewal is infrequently done. Even if you're not footing the repair bill, in your position I'd definitely get a 2nd opinion. In any event, ask them to retain and show you the old worn bits ......

Even professionals get it wrong sometimes, both genuinely and sometimes deliberately ....

Cosworth427

stevie turbo --- Thanks for the engineering lesson, but what you provided was off the point - again.

MAC wanted to know how to bleed the fluid. Not find and uninstall the cylinder systems of the clutch. IF you have pockets of air inside the brake fluid, you'd have pockets of air in the fluid needed to engage and disengage the clutch.

Here's a link to some other clutch/fluid related problems. The problem is related to what MAC is experiencing.

http://www.unofficialbmw.com/all/drivetrain/all_clutch_bleeding.html

BOB.T

clicky

I fail to see where the above link mentions bleeding the brakes to fix a clutch problem

The only link between the clutch and brake systems is that they draw fluid from the same reservoir! There are divisions within the reservoir so it's possible to run low on clutch fluid and not effect the brakes, and vice versa.

In this case, as the clutch seems to have reappeared I'd also suggest a hydraulic problem.... if a clutch is worn, it stays worn! From what I can gather BM's have had problems with the clutch master cylinder, is there fluid leaking, try checking up underneath the dash, see if the carpets are damp? You could also check the slave cylinder, peel the dust cover back and check for leaking fluid. Failing that, is there a flexi hose in the system, check that!

I'd be highly amazed if the clutch itself is entirely to blame

Cosworth427

BOB.T

Yes, but once again, the fluid used with the brakes that MIGHT have air pockets will for certain have pockets when the fluid is used by the actions of the clutch pedal. Different reserviors only constrain fluid so one system wont get starved by the other system. It doesnt prevent the problem of air in the fluid.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not assuming that the fluid itself is the problem of the clutch, but I'm justifying the reasons for bleeding via the brakes IF that's what IS required.

BOB.T

The reservoir is the highest part of the system, if a bubble were to rise through the clutch system into the reservoir it would just float to the top and burst, it simply isn't possible for it to get into the brakes!

From what you're saying you could operate the brakes by pressing the clutch

Did I mention I'm a trained mechanic?

Cosworth427

BOB.T

So what are you trying to say? That the Clutch resevior eliminates air pockets from the fluid?

BOB.T

OK, crappy picture I know!

Basically, when the fluid is at it's correct level, it's above the divider, both systems have access to the fluid. Should one system develop a leak, the level drops but, the good system will be left with fluid to the top of the divider.

Regardless of where the fluid level is, if an air pocket was to rise in either system, it could only rise to the suface and pop, just like when a scuba driver breathes out under water. There's no way an air pocket could go over the divider and into the other system.

So lets say there's an air pocket in the clutch, it wouldn't matter how long you bled the brakes, the air pocket wouldn't be released.

Does that help, I hope I'm not coming accross as argumentative or taking the ****

BOB.T

**** ME I quite like how that piccy has come out, only took about 2 mins

Cosworth427

I am completely WRONG about bleeding the clutch via the brakes on a 3 series. And what bad timing too. My E36 318i has been depleted of any brake fluid, and the gears wont engage.

MGJohn

Worn hydraulic seals does not necessarily mean air in the system or fluid loss. It simply means that under the huge hydraulic pressures, the fluid is able to pass around the worn seals - exactly what you don't want to happen as thereby pressure is lost. It could also mean that fluid loss is near non-existent ... it's just that the worn seals are not doing their job any longer by er ..... not sealing ...

BOB.T

Cosworth, bugger

Steve, I see what you mean, the picture is very open to interpretation(SP?)

Cosworth427

BOB.T

This morning I toped up some fluid, pumped the clutch pedal and the car can engage gears again, but I'm not sure what caused the problem in the first place. There's no leakage in the primary cylinder or servos, and no leaks under the car.

MAC76

Got my new clutch Its like a different car Still no scoob though
Thanks for all your help

BOB.T

Cosworth, sounds like there must be a leak somewhere. One thing to bear in mind, the system will only hold around half a litre in total so it's it's not gonna take much of a leak to cause problems. It's unlikely you'll have drips on the floor, there will prolly be a damp area somewhere... it will also attract dust, it'll be sticky and awfull

Get you head right up under the dash, see if you can spot where the rod from the pedal goes into the master cylinder, this will prolly be favourite. The next place to check is the slave cylinder, on the gearbox, look for where the rod comes out of it, there will be a dust cover on it, peel that back, if any fluid comes out, replace it.

Good luck!

Oh, check your anti freeze too Mine is like an ice cube, all the pipes and the water pump are frozen solid Got fingers crossed

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

No, but if air has somehow got into the clutch line, due to possibly faulty/worn seals in the slave cylinder, then air at that point has absolutely nothing to do with the brakes. ( As bob states anyway, if the air did manage to make its way back into teh main reservoir, there wouldnt be a problem in the first place )
If the trapped air bubble was to magically just float its way back up through very thin clutch line, through the master cylinder, and back into the main reservoir, then he wouldnt need to bleed anything. It would also be ( possibly ) the worlds first completely self bleeding hydraulic system.
Why you keep referring to the brakes when the original question was about his clutch is beyond me, so I would think you have little grasp on how any of the clutch or brake system actually works.
Just stick to your cable clutch Cossie. Its less complicated, do you have cable brakes too???

Id also tend to agree with John, that if this happened all of a sudden, then the clutch is probably fine. I have seen both slave and master cyliders on older bmw's give trouble. but I would check the slave cylinder first.

[Edited by ustolemyname??stevieturbo - 1/3/2003 1:32:32 AM]

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

I dont think the divider is quite the way you decribe bob. I think the take of for the clutch is simply at a high point on the main reservoir.
This would mean that should the fluid level drop low, then the clutch hydraulic system would be the first to to develop problems, leaving the braking system with a safe level of fluid.

Damn...I drew a pic, but I cant upload now.

Although looking at it again, the pic is pretty much the same as what i describe in practise. Obviously just different designs of reservoir..



[Edited by ustolemyname??stevieturbo - 1/3/2003 7:32:51 PM]