rich uk300

honda civic type r beats the focus rs in a overall package....

yet again the focus is slated off the track

marty_t3

yeah... and the best times round the track were a lot closer than the top gear test times. By the sounds of it Tiff much prefered the handling of the Civic (though he did say that it's poor in the wet).

marty_t3

He also said it costs 20k. I thought it was supposed to be cheaper than a new MY02 WRX?

rich uk300

yep 20k is the price all but a few pennies

DuggE4

I feel really sorry for those Focus RS dudes, they have put up with 2 years of bull$hit from Ford over the delivery of the RS. Only to find now after 2 years of handing over £500 that alot of the motoring press don't actually rate it that highly. It would appear to be fundamentally flawed, the guys on the RS Focus BBS slagged off Jeremy Clarkson saying he's a tosser and knows nothing anyway, but Tiff Needall as well ????? I mean Tiff can really drive and he reckons a car that costs 2.5k cheaper is a better overall car says something about the flaws of the Focus. I mean just look at the way he took the RS round corners, it looked no where near as nimble as the Civic, its not like he's doing it on purpose....

I guess the proof of the pudding will be in the eating, but if I got a car I waited for 2 years and it drove like a skittish unassured no confidence building loony vehicle then I'd be well hacked off. If you want a laugh take trip over there and watch the comments they make to try and justify why their keeping their deposits down!!

I guarantee they will slag off Tiff and find a counter arg to all the negative comments he made. One even mentioned he thought the journos were doing it on purpose......ARGHHH they are out to get me!!! Oh dear disilluisionment at its worst.

MGJohn

Not an impressive assessment of those cars IMHO. Severe lack of credibility and the unsmooth driving most of the time would not provide the best times. However, that ragged driving maybe for the benefit of the camera and the timed laps were less ragged and not shown in the programme. Any driver needs to live with any car for a period to really obtain the best performance and assess it realistically. A few ragged laps in each of those cars all on the same day would NEVER be sufficient to do that irrespective of how good/bad the driver is. That's one of the reasons why a certain German multi-world champion completes many hundreds of laps in his F1 car.

rich uk300

its gone all quiet on the ford forum's

DuggE4

Hehehehehe cue spinning tumbleweed in true western tradition
on the Focus RS BBS!

marty_t3

hehehe just had a look myself.... i dont think they want to talk about it

where's co55ie when you need him

MGJohn

Just read DuggE4's response. He writes:

>> I mean Tiff can really drive <<

He can certainly throw a car about but drive? Depends on your viewpoint. There are those, and I am one of them who believe he's merely showy and over-rated ....

>> its not like he's doing it on purpose.... <<<

How can you be sure of that? He who pays the piper .... no, never been known.

What's advertiser's revenue clout Dad? ... Dunno son ... get on with your homework ....

Yeah, but when all said and done, these "can really drive" TV presenter types are in a very priviledged position and thus have MUCH influence directly on car sales. Manufacturers are well aware of this and pay handsomely. So, with this in mind, is it just possible that one or two could be tempted to "speak with forked tongue" ... nah, no chance ...

Happy MotorinG

rich uk300

Mega

Hi John
Who do you know who instead of buying a MG brought a Civic Type"R" then?
Clue:- name starts with M
Mega

rich uk300

out of the six cars MG was the first to be binned by Tiff

[Edited by rich uk300 - 10/28/2002 10:14:35 PM]

marty_t3

John,

I'd agree with you about presenters being influenced by 'higher powers' but as for Tiff.... he's been competitive on both GT and touring cars. Ok so he's far from the greatest racing driver out there but he is a b100by good driver.

I think it was Damon Hill who described Tiff along the lines of 'not the fastest of drivers but his car control is incredible'. I'd say that would qualify him as a good driver.

MGJohn

Consider this.

Tiffany Dell liked the high revving characteristics (8-9000rpm?) of the NON-turbocharged Honda engine. I probably would in small and low doses. However, I wonder what sort of engine response there is with the daily grind stop/start crawl to the office with an engine that needs to be REALLY revved to be seen to best advantage. Not a quick blast round a traffic free track. Can't see much "on the cam" under those daily driver conditions .... On the other hand, certainly for me, to sustain that level of revs over a longish journey would soon be very tiring.

No, good as it maybe, that Honda buzz-box would not be for me. I speak as someone who has always had the greatest respect for the products out of Soichiro Honda's factories since I bought my first back in the 1960s. I still have one in my garage today. It's red-lined at 10,000 but only has two wheels .... but, I'll always prefer low down grunt to high revs power and then there's that turbo coming on song in my 4-pot bangers... never fails to please .... you know what I mean ....

Consider also:

Clarkson's obvious joy driving that twin turbo Ford engined red flying machine on Top Gear BBC2 yesterday which also involved the Ford and Subaru comparison. What was it he said, something on the lines of the best handling car he'd ever driven. Crap driver or not, that has to be praise indeed. Witness also his build up to those turbos coming on song ... he really milked that ... like a schoolboy having his first drive in a fast car .... not a "seen and driven 'em all" jaded journalist hack ... and that smile on his face WAS genuine, not simply for the benefit of the cameras.

So would I consider the new Focus RS? No, not for me .....

Funny old game people and their cars ...... )

Happy MotorinG

MGJohn

Yes Scouse-Mike-Mega ... and my Honda is faster than your'n ...

naturbo2000

btw - what they show, and what they time aren't necessarily the same thing.

Tiff is a full on racer, and drifting in a FWD is a purely for the cameras thing

My .02

MGJohn

>>> out of the six cars MG was the first to be binned by Tiff <<<

Yeah, puzzling that .. why include the MG ZR in that line up. Thus not the same league surely. Even the MG ZS180 is considerably cheaper so why was that not included. There is a rear hatch version. Maybe the V6 engine disqualified it ...

I'd like to have seen that MG included even though I know what the ace wheel twiddler and pedal pusher would say about it ....

Better put him on the payroll .....

DuggE4

I'm not saying the Honda is the best hatchback car that ever existed, Im not saying that Tiff is the best driver either, but he is a damn sight more competent than me!! Now I want a car I can drive fast on a normal road, the Focus appears to be a car only real 'expert' drivers can get the most out of (and thats on a nice smooth track). Now just think about the normal smooth quality of your average british road.....smooth is not the first word that springs to mind!!! so the focus is going to be a scrabbly skittish car I can't drive fast cos I'd be too $hit scared too....and I reckon that I am not the only driver who likes fast cars to be in that kind of skill class!! so your average joe punter is going to be disappointed with it!! and the funny thing is Ford ain't letting them test drive it.....hmmmm now I wonder why that is..........? If you wanna be that cynical about the motor industry MGJohn, then I suggest that is a very good reason to be!

marty_t3

John,

ref your comments about the Vtec usable rev range. A mate of mine has the integra and admits it himself that his car is not the most pleasant to drive around about town (though granted when driven in anger it is a very very very fun car).

DJ Dunk

iTrader: (5)

Wouldn't give up my Civic Type-R for the world

I was well pleased to see it come out on top considering the expensive opposition

Ducati 996

Having had an Integra and now a Civic, the Civic is far more refined than the integra, the civic is far better round town, but for the pure grunt/grin factor the integra is the daddy.

But what makes me laugh is that 1. top gear state the Civic is faster than the scooby (this is where I get falmed, and probably get some guy out there saying, if it was wet, if it was wet.... or the civic wouldn't beat my 22B which has spent a year at prodrive, blah, blah blah....) 2. The civic outshone the Focus, so 2 programs, I guess with varying views, the underlining fact is that the civic is the best all round car for the money.

Ok so I'm biased being an owner.... but it's there twice in the space of two days.....

rich uk300

top gear said the civic and focus were faster than the scooby.....BUT ONLY ON THE TRACK....real day to day driving on Britain's crap roads in all weather conditions,i'll think you will find that the tables will be turned round to scoobies favour

Ducati 996

As expected... in the wet, in the wet....

And from my experience... not so, it's so close it's scary

DJ Dunk

iTrader: (5)

Agree with Ducati - On the UK roads it would be closer than you might think. In the wet the CTR needs a better driver whereas the Scooby has its AWD crap-driver improvement aid. Remember the comparison is between standard unmodified UK cars, not STi's etc. On A-B roads you would have great trouble losing a CTR.

Dunk
(Big Scooby fan, but CTR owner)

Ali-T

Its a myth that all VTECs have no torque.

The original B16 used in the earlier Civics and CRX didn't have huge amounts, just average for a 1.6l. The same is true for the Integra Type R. Same engine, different capacity. The B18 has a decent amount of torque for a 1.8 NA engine, but the vicious cam change of earlier VTECs made it very black and white. Remember that the B series is now 12 years old and still more advanced than 90% of the tosh on our roads. The K series (ironic!) in the CTR has iVTEC. The torque still isn't massive, though 148 lbft is pretty decent for a 2 litre. However, 90% of THAT is available from 3k on. In day to day running, the CTR is very liveable with. To drive fast soesn't NEED VTEC. But you use it anyway. It makes you smile...lots

CTR

Torque on its own is a misleading figure though. It doesnt take into account of gearing, bhp is a much more meaningful figure. As far as I can tell, more torque just equals lazy driving, diesel anyone.

I think a Subaru will pull away a little from a CTR in the wet, and I dont think the Subaru driver would be putting in anywhere near the effort of the CTR driver. The Subaru is easier to drive quickly.