john banks

I have been spannering my E46 to get it mechanically sound before adding mods to track it. Initially the tyres were mismatched and the cooling system and brakes were dodgy so I didn't drive it hard on the road. Now I have done having sorted out these issues and fitted newer matching tyres.

In road driving, with 6C temperature in the dry, in Scotland, it feels competent enough until you unleash all 192 BHP when it yields at the back axle about as quickly as the GTR does with triple that, and I thought that was disappointing although bodes well for drifting it off road.

I entirely get the point of oversteer off the road with the traction control fully disabled (you can tell when it is really off as you can batter it off the rev limiter whilst going sideways, if it is partially off it does 2000 RPM and just moves a bit sideways on a loose surface, on my model you can turn fully off by pressing and holding, the year after you have to unplug a wheel speed sensor).

I entirely miss the point of choosing RWD with an open diff for a year round road car when the back end doesn't actually move but you just get wheel hop, a few flares of revs, and what actually seems to be very little forward progress, but albeit on an old car you'd don't seem to get any fabulous sense of balance or steering feel compared to an absolutely crap FWD Audi. I know the bushes and bits are past their best, but it does go sideways in the farmyard very nicely and then I see the point.

Do most RWD evangelists such as Matteeboy fully turn off the traction control on the road and apply opposite lock or do they genuinely feel the benefits of RWD for a road car with traction control on as I just don't get it.

Carnut

I've said this before then soon after took some abuse but l don't feel lots of modern RWD are proper RWD. Obviously that's where the power goes but many rely on the traction control and ESP or what ever to extract the power. RWD supercars are often used as a argument for the RWD but there's a reason they cost 200k etc.
A PROPER RWD if that's what you're after, ie you're a purest, should be balanced and setup with no elec aids before then adding them for a bit of safety.
Failing that, it might as well be a FWD or AWD.

Bit surprised about your M3 though, although l do think some tradition comes in to play for BMW and Mercedes when deciding RWD.

john banks

I used to have an M3 and didn't gel with it and also found the suspension and brakes fell massively short of the ultimate driving machine.

Present E46 is an old 325ti which was reviewed like a mini M3, if that doesn't make it sound a bit like the predecessor of a very 'junior supercar'.

In essence I haven't found either E46 to be great road cars. For drifting with all aids off the number of spins only encourage me not to turn off all the aids on the road.

Shaun

SDB had a e46 M3 and he loved it..... we all know how he likes to punt a car.

He used to just turn the DSC off (or whatever it's called) and used to get that thing to dance...... I used to **** myself round roundabouts.

john banks

I do not think the public roads are the place for it though.

Shaun

So what do you actually want for the road then?

john banks

Excellent acceleration/traction/braking and neutral to slight oversteer balance. So far my experience of RWD is disappointing but next weekend I see whether a 12C changes my expectation.

Shaun

Simon just recently bought one. He says it is everything he'd hoped for and more.

Be interesting to hear what you think.

Personally I thought it was awesome.

john banks

I would buy another one but manual instead of SMG as a drift car.

zip106

Lotus?

john banks

McLaren. Sorry Shaun, crossed wires with E46 M3. I have high hopes for the 12C but being mid engined it should have better traction than the front engine although it doesn't have a lot of torque. Sam who used to post on here has got one and is trying to talk me into one, will be interesting to see how it handles roads I know on a typical February day in Scotland. Bear in mind the GTR is no paragon of virtue in these conditions and it will be interesting to see how powerful mid engine RWD handles it, I hope better.

zip106

John, I meant have you tried a Lotus for the traits you're after?
If not, get a drive in an Exige V6.

john banks

I should do, might be an epiphany? Interestingly the 12C has open rear diff but wheel braking to simulate. Will report back.

zip106

Or you might be hoping for Devine intervention when you get out of shape in it

Exige also has open diff.

Shaun

John,
I went out with Simon when it was damp. It seemed to "handle" pretty well!

It's going to be different to the GTR..., you've actually got to drive the 12C.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Mazda MX5 or if you want something with a little more poke Honda S2000, MR2 3rd generation is also a good shout but needs to be properly set up with good tyres otherwise they can be rather twitchy.

In your shoes I'd say the Honda is the car your after, forged engine from the factory that's been tuned up to 600bhp in the states, I'd say a 50bhp increase over standard would be plenty for your requirements.

For out and out fun and balance but not quite so much muscle the MX5 wins, the other thing to note about them is your not hurtling towards the horizon at stupid speeds to have an absolute ball in one on the road, they're not really for the power hungry straight line ***** wavers though, if you can get over the image and lack of ballistic performance you'll see why they're so popular after a couple of hours in one.

P.S; I think the 12C will be just like the GTR, a bit too much in every sense of the word, sometimes less is more.

john banks

S2000 and MX5 drift well but safety regs need more rollover protection hence I have started with a BMW. I thought a Puma was more fun on the road but it was fresher, better steering and suspension (than the BMW). I do find that stuff with 500+ HP can be fun, intimidating/have a learning curve, but you can end up arriving at corners so fast you just have to shed a load of speed which makes it somewhat ragged/point and squirt.

Will see how I feel once I have improved my off road oversteering.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

E46 DSC is a bit pants IMO. Slightest sniff of wheelspin and it cuts the power dead. Quite dangerous at a busy junction, on occasions its has allowed me to pull half-way out of a junction and leave me stranded there with oncoming traffic bearing down on me. I always turn it off at these junctions now if I know I'm going to need to make a quick get-away. I do it on the Golf as well - even though its AWD, it doesn't need to cut the power as much as it does should a inside wheel start to scrabble (which its always going to try and do whilst turning out of a 90degree junction).

Some versions of the e46 did have an active diff mode (not called that, just best way to describe it)...which when the DSC was OFF, it'll put the brakes on the inner wheel (or whichever one was spinning) whilst still allowing full power. My e46 325 touring definitely had it, as it was fairly good in the snow - it would never get stuck with just one wheel spinning (despite the open diff) and I could just about hear the ABS pump working whilst it was trying to sort things out. Well, as long as it was going forwards...it didn't seem to work in reverse gear though!

On the flip side the traction control on the Monaro VXR was useless....it'd light up both of the rear wheels and fishtail all over the place regardless of it being switched on or not! You could argue that you may want that, but at the same time I'd say it may as well not have been fitted as it didn't really serve any purpose in controlling traction - especially in the wet.

The DSC on the F07 BM seems more progressive depending on what mode is used. It certainly gets more of its power down alot cleaner than my E46 ever did. Still, like many other autos and DSGs it still tries to pull away in 2nd gear on occasions though unless I manually tell it otherwise (another bug bear I have with vehicle automation)

As for e46 handling, I always found it to be a bit vanilla. I've driven plenty of them in various trim and output levels as well as states of repair (not a 6pot e46 compact though). It does vary depending on suspension and wheel/tyre options. I've pulled my hair out over a e46 coupe with handling issues at motorway speeds (scary instability on the M5 West Brom over the expansion joints - if you know this stretch of motorway, you know how the expansion joints unsettle a car with handling issues). Initially and foolishly overlooked one important thing: the tyres. I had checked them, but only visually: They were newish Sportcontact 3s with plenty of tread and evenly worn and is a good quality tyre with a good reputation (in contrast to other brands that I've seen showing some form of failure/deformation), but it seems one or more may have been defective or failed internally without showing any visual clues (probably pothole damage ) - normally a broken/damaged band feels like a flat tyre or a big flat spot. Same car now runs Sportcontact 5s and new shocks and is perfectly planted on the same stretch well into three figure speeds..before it'd feel like the rear end wanted to step out at 60mph.

I find many that I work on these days have knackered shocks - especially rears, and front bushings. They are also good at hiding broken rear springs and sloppy rear subframe mounts. These cars do go very sloppy with age regardless of mileage: I ended up polybushing the front lower arms on my touring at a meer 40K, which made a nice improvement to the steering under hard braking, but at the same time it introduced a little more NVH than I would have liked. It always handled better with some weight in the boot too, well, until the rear shocks and springs gave up LOL. Unfortunately the extra weight meant it was almost impossible to power-oversteer it...engine didn't have enough grunt.

Carnut

As mentioned in ALI-Bs post, would a Monaro VXR not be up your street John, they come in all shapes and sizes these days with some seriously big power? (Although if looking at a Meclaran l doubt a Vauxhall will satisfy)

ALI-B is the man to ask.

john banks

Thinking of coilovers, bushes and bits but way of spending what I paid for the car again, but I've already put in half on other repairs and much more in time.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Personally I don't think the Monaro would be up John's street for a track car. Its one of those cars that has a tad too much power for the chassis IMO (in 6.0 LS2 VXR trim). As a cheaper alternative to an M5, maybe, but for a E46 compact?....hmm, not sure.

Whilst it handles well, its a big heavy car and I thinks it needs a fair bit of work to make it into a focused track weapon: When driving hard round the lanes, I always found it difficult to accurately position the car on the road, so it didn't give me that much confidence when attacking bends. It definitely needs a lot of money spending on the brakes for a start, even the bigger VXR brakes give up after a bit of hard use....think Scooby 2pots were bad? These are worse!

john banks

Wondering about a tuned to 400HP early 335i with welded rear diff if I get the hang of the 325ti. Thread was more reflecting on the value of open diff front engine RWD.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Welded diff? Sounds a bit extreme LOL.

MX5 has a open rear diff...I always had a bit of fun sliding them around. Very forgivable handling, but it was always done under provocation. I guess over steer on those was more down to the dynamics of the suspension geometry rather than just spinning up a inner wheel. So to me there is more to it than just front engine+RWD+open diff.

I suppose the point about a traction control system interfering is one thing; I've never entirely gelled with them.

Do I prefer a LSD over a open diff? Depends on the type of LSD...some cars I've driven have a rear diff with too little slip or lock-up too aggressively, to the point that sedately tottering out of junctions has the inner tyre squealing like a pig. So to me a welded diff wouldn't be up my street. To me, a tight LSD can make the car too inflexible, intolerant to road conditions and oversensitive to driver input.

Do I like front engine+RWD. Yes. Compared to mid/rear engine RWD? I have no real preference - I've had a 911 sideways as much as a BMW, both open diff.

Actually I've been de-bugging an old 3.2 Carerra with some running issue. It has some cheap and nasty Dunlops so its not very grippy in the recent cold and damp, its pure analogue by today's standards. That just got me thinking of the lift-off oversteer: Point to note about open diffs is they will apply an even force to both wheels during hard engine braking. Thats what often gets people into trouble with RWD cars (too much engine braking = both rear wheels losing grip).

boosted

I agree, RWD is not for the road, you want to have fun but still do it safely and within your limits.
A few of my "drifting" mates swear by RWD and they all need m3's or m5's for the road, but I've yet to be in a car with one of them going sideways. It's a scene point thing, look at me my cars RWD etc, well so is mine! Oh it's fwd too...

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

BMW's are front engine cars so rear wheel drive is always going to be tail happy where as a super car with rear wheel drive is usually mid engine so the weight is on the rear wheels not like some cheap BMW

Shaun

However, the BMW will be "safer" for the majority of drivers in many respects. Whilst dynamics will be better with a mid-engined car, if you go past the point of "being in control", you best make sure you have your life insurance up to date.

Carnut

Yeah so supercars are not like your average RWD car, which was my point.

Littleted

Mates got 650S now what a motor they are.........utter Madness

Carnut

I'm in the middle of a business deal at the moment to sell my wife and child so l can get one.

fat-thomas

iTrader: (4)

dont forget to read the internet review and tells us all your experience learnt through someone else