How long is the average New car designed to last
17 March 2014, 08:48 AM
#5
Down to manufacturer and driver.
Mileage is easier: most vehicles are done for by 200,000 miles. If that's 12k per annum then that's about 16.7 years.
However an old car usually dies from corrosion and electronic issues (rusty brake lines, abs light, airbag light etc). High mile cars tend die from drivetrain failures.
However if the car is driven and maintained by a gorilla, it's life will be very much shorter. We maintain a fleet of Vitos and Scudos. The Merc is the more robust van, most are on 150k plus, but one is on its last legs at just 90k because the driver is an idiot. Most Scudos die before 150k but we have a few that's been nursed past 200k and drive better than some of the Scudos with under 100k.. Again down to how they are driven and treated. Although with Scudos the locks always fail and the side doors always fall off after about 5 to 6 years
And when I mean die I mean it's beyond economic repair. So parts prices also affect lifespan.
Mileage is easier: most vehicles are done for by 200,000 miles. If that's 12k per annum then that's about 16.7 years.
However an old car usually dies from corrosion and electronic issues (rusty brake lines, abs light, airbag light etc). High mile cars tend die from drivetrain failures.
However if the car is driven and maintained by a gorilla, it's life will be very much shorter. We maintain a fleet of Vitos and Scudos. The Merc is the more robust van, most are on 150k plus, but one is on its last legs at just 90k because the driver is an idiot. Most Scudos die before 150k but we have a few that's been nursed past 200k and drive better than some of the Scudos with under 100k.. Again down to how they are driven and treated. Although with Scudos the locks always fail and the side doors always fall off after about 5 to 6 years
And when I mean die I mean it's beyond economic repair. So parts prices also affect lifespan.
Last edited by ALi-B; 17 March 2014 at 08:51 AM.
17 March 2014, 09:28 AM
#7
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Berks
Posts: 4,224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trending Topics
17 March 2014, 09:37 AM
#9
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: riding the crest of a wave ...
Posts: 46,493
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
Thanks replies
I think iv thrown away couple years use on my diesel mondeo through ( like a ***t ) not changing oil enough . Ten years old and 150k
I think iv thrown away couple years use on my diesel mondeo through ( like a ***t ) not changing oil enough . Ten years old and 150k
17 March 2014, 01:19 PM
#11
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,623
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's an article on a similar topic in Evo this month. However, it's more aimed at how general household appliances don't seem to last long these days and that only a few items (such as cars) are being built to last longer.
Nick
Nick
17 March 2014, 03:36 PM
#12
Scooby Regular
Washing Machines were about £250 30 years ago.
They can be had for £180 or less now.
I don't mind them just lasting 5 years ... as I can generally coax them on to 8 years.
Cars - well, can last for ever really. The parts costs kill them these days. My Scooby was over 10 years old when I sold it, 105,000miles, original clutch and running as sweet as a nut ..... cared for, you see?
As an average I would agree with 13 years.
They can be had for £180 or less now.
I don't mind them just lasting 5 years ... as I can generally coax them on to 8 years.
Cars - well, can last for ever really. The parts costs kill them these days. My Scooby was over 10 years old when I sold it, 105,000miles, original clutch and running as sweet as a nut ..... cared for, you see?
As an average I would agree with 13 years.
23 March 2014, 10:56 AM
#16
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: riding the crest of a wave ...
Posts: 46,493
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
I was staggered to learn a new injector ( when car was new )for this car mondeo diesel is 600 quid 
I mean, that's a massive proportion of the cost of the whole car
I mean, that's a massive proportion of the cost of the whole car
23 March 2014, 11:16 AM
#17
As Ali B´s post illustrates, lots of factors effect this.
As loose rule of thumb. As an average you are looking at 15years ish.
I think it also depends as to if you are prepared to chuck a bit of money at it at that 10year/100,000 miles mark.
As an example. Because it is the devil I know, and it is a great workhorse.............
My 10 year old BMW 3 series diesel has done 160,000miles
In that time I have had to replace
The complete front suspension
Brakes.
Handbrake shoes ect
Headlights
Water pump
Radiator thermostat
Crappy flexy bit in the exhaust - Tecnical term
Glow plugs
Also additionaly for longevity
Fuel Pump filter
Gearbox oil
Turbo Oil Breather
Oil change every 15kms as opposed to every 30kms
I expect, fingers crossed, another 4/5 years from it and it to head over 200,000miles
After that, when it dies is when it dies
As loose rule of thumb. As an average you are looking at 15years ish.
I think it also depends as to if you are prepared to chuck a bit of money at it at that 10year/100,000 miles mark.
As an example. Because it is the devil I know, and it is a great workhorse.............
My 10 year old BMW 3 series diesel has done 160,000miles
In that time I have had to replace
The complete front suspension
Brakes.
Handbrake shoes ect
Headlights
Water pump
Radiator thermostat
Crappy flexy bit in the exhaust - Tecnical term
Glow plugs
Also additionaly for longevity
Fuel Pump filter
Gearbox oil
Turbo Oil Breather
Oil change every 15kms as opposed to every 30kms
I expect, fingers crossed, another 4/5 years from it and it to head over 200,000miles
After that, when it dies is when it dies
Last edited by Steve Whitehorn; 23 March 2014 at 11:17 AM.
23 March 2014, 11:21 AM
#18
I'm doing well then with the Greenwagon
Nearly 13 years old and had it since new
But w
Spending money on rust repairs on the arches is more then the cars value but
Doesn't matter I've always wanted to purchase and run forever a classic car so not goong to start again with a new one ,will keep on spending on the Greenwagon as it gives me so much pleasure
But when you can get a brand new Suzuki alto /pug 106 etc it's cheap throw away motoring for people looking at that price point
Nearly 13 years old and had it since new
But w
Spending money on rust repairs on the arches is more then the cars value but
Doesn't matter I've always wanted to purchase and run forever a classic car so not goong to start again with a new one ,will keep on spending on the Greenwagon as it gives me so much pleasure
But when you can get a brand new Suzuki alto /pug 106 etc it's cheap throw away motoring for people looking at that price point
23 March 2014, 11:31 AM
#19
I'm doing well then with the Greenwagon
Nearly 13 years old and had it since new
But w
Spending money on rust repairs on the arches is more then the cars value but
Doesn't matter I've always wanted to purchase and run forever a classic car so not goong to start again with a new one ,will keep on spending on the Greenwagon as it gives me so much pleasure
But when you can get a brand new Suzuki alto /pug 106 etc it's cheap throw away motoring for people looking at that price point
Nearly 13 years old and had it since new
But w
Spending money on rust repairs on the arches is more then the cars value but
Doesn't matter I've always wanted to purchase and run forever a classic car so not goong to start again with a new one ,will keep on spending on the Greenwagon as it gives me so much pleasure
But when you can get a brand new Suzuki alto /pug 106 etc it's cheap throw away motoring for people looking at that price point
23 March 2014, 11:31 AM
#20
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: riding the crest of a wave ...
Posts: 46,493
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
Had mine from 90-150 k
Replaced dmf clutch starter motor ( partly covered by warranty) and turbo about a year in.
But that's been it - apart from consumables /accidents . ( rear calipers ,
)
If I'd kept up with 6 month oil changes , I think wouldn't have done another turbo , which it seems I might have . However the new injector(s) required has put it over the edge I think
Replaced dmf clutch starter motor ( partly covered by warranty) and turbo about a year in.
But that's been it - apart from consumables /accidents . ( rear calipers ,
)If I'd kept up with 6 month oil changes , I think wouldn't have done another turbo , which it seems I might have . However the new injector(s) required has put it over the edge I think
23 March 2014, 11:39 AM
#21
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: riding the crest of a wave ...
Posts: 46,493
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
So it's cost about a grand a year, ex running and maintenance.
Maybe I should invest in a classic too..Next doors just spent 11k on sierra cosworth , 500 hp apparently.
Maybe I should invest in a classic too..Next doors just spent 11k on sierra cosworth , 500 hp apparently.
23 March 2014, 11:51 AM
#22
Yesturday I had the joy of drivng a 55 plate Mondeo with 194K. It needs rears shocks as drives like Uncle Buck's car....it also smokes like uncle Buck's car (the film, not the SN user 
). Its also got the typical Mondeo pulley noise, clutch is fecked, DMF is noisy and it sounds like its contaminated the starter motor as that's noisy too (all common mondeo issues).
The running issues are two fold, from the seat of my pants, I suspect one is a sticky EGR, the other is feeling like an air-in-fuel issue. At best it could just be the fuel filter or a pin hole in a supply pipe, at worst it'll need a new pump, and possibly injectors.
If its the latter the car will be scrapped. Unless second hand parts are thrown at it (dodgy as many second hand pumps are f**ked ). As the cost of new or reconditioned parts outweight the vehicle's value.
Now on the flip side we do oversee a e60 520d taxi (2006 IIRC). Last time I saw it it was on 240K. Its had thermostats, 2nd hand DPF, a few sensors, glowplugs, a 2nd hand turbo (what is it with taxi drivers wanting to use 2nd hand parts? ), along with most of the front suspension. Now the steering rack is worn out.
DPF has blocked up a few times due to sensor and thermostat problems, we just clean it out. Now I belive the 2nd DPF is dead as its covering the back bumper with soot, so it must have some holes in it, but it hasn't thrown any error codes or gone into limp-home so we'll just leave it alone until it does, as it still passes MOT emissions and drives OK. The cost of a new DPF on some cheaper cars could render them beyond economic repair.
I personally think this car is probably going to see 300K before it gets too expensive to keep running.
However this is a M47 engined BMW, if it were one year newer it'd be a N47 engine, and long before now it'd have to have its engine out for a new timing chain- or replacement/top-end rebuild if it had broke (which most eventually do if not caught and replaced in time) the cost of a broken chain would more or less outweigh the car's value.
N47 timing chains do give you warning before they fail - rattle on start-up. If it does it, stop driving it, save up and get it fixed ASAP. But many peopel won't so I foresee that when these N47 BMWs get older and the chains start fail, they may end up being scrapped early, unless BMW become alot more open to repairs on good-will.
). Its also got the typical Mondeo pulley noise, clutch is fecked, DMF is noisy and it sounds like its contaminated the starter motor as that's noisy too (all common mondeo issues).The running issues are two fold, from the seat of my pants, I suspect one is a sticky EGR, the other is feeling like an air-in-fuel issue. At best it could just be the fuel filter or a pin hole in a supply pipe, at worst it'll need a new pump, and possibly injectors.
If its the latter the car will be scrapped. Unless second hand parts are thrown at it (dodgy as many second hand pumps are f**ked ). As the cost of new or reconditioned parts outweight the vehicle's value.
Now on the flip side we do oversee a e60 520d taxi (2006 IIRC). Last time I saw it it was on 240K. Its had thermostats, 2nd hand DPF, a few sensors, glowplugs, a 2nd hand turbo (what is it with taxi drivers wanting to use 2nd hand parts?
), along with most of the front suspension. Now the steering rack is worn out.DPF has blocked up a few times due to sensor and thermostat problems, we just clean it out. Now I belive the 2nd DPF is dead as its covering the back bumper with soot, so it must have some holes in it, but it hasn't thrown any error codes or gone into limp-home so we'll just leave it alone until it does, as it still passes MOT emissions and drives OK. The cost of a new DPF on some cheaper cars could render them beyond economic repair.
I personally think this car is probably going to see 300K before it gets too expensive to keep running.
However this is a M47 engined BMW, if it were one year newer it'd be a N47 engine, and long before now it'd have to have its engine out for a new timing chain- or replacement/top-end rebuild if it had broke (which most eventually do if not caught and replaced in time) the cost of a broken chain would more or less outweigh the car's value. N47 timing chains do give you warning before they fail - rattle on start-up. If it does it, stop driving it, save up and get it fixed ASAP. But many peopel won't so I foresee that when these N47 BMWs get older and the chains start fail, they may end up being scrapped early, unless BMW become alot more open to repairs on good-will.
Last edited by ALi-B; 23 March 2014 at 11:53 AM.
23 March 2014, 11:57 AM
#23
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: riding the crest of a wave ...
Posts: 46,493
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
Another thing about modern cars / diesels I can't really get head round is just HOW MUCH it'll cost you to find out / calibrate your engines running badly /running well / just about to die
I guess it's in order to purchase the fancy testing machinery in the first place ( and put it totally beyond the reach of the amateur )
That said there seems to be double the amount that can go wrong on modern diesel ( over a modern petrol )
I guess it's in order to purchase the fancy testing machinery in the first place ( and put it totally beyond the reach of the amateur )
That said there seems to be double the amount that can go wrong on modern diesel ( over a modern petrol )
Last edited by dpb; 23 March 2014 at 12:00 PM.
23 March 2014, 12:44 PM
#24
That's one of our big and most inhibitive overheads - the diagnostic equipment, not just the purchase but the subscription fees.
We've used some equipment for years, but it seems their support and lack of updates has become worse and worse. I'm guessing they are going to bring out a "all new" peice of kit and stop supporting the old kit. That'll be another £5K please sir...plus an extra few grand subscription costs. Smoke machine is worth its weight in gold....but that did cost £700. The laptop based oscillscope..£1400. The laptop £500. Power probe £150.
Access to vehicle date (Autodata) or workshop manuals, wiring diagrams or service bulletins. It all costs (usually - spaghetti coder was a great resource until BMW pulled the plug).
How many cars need to be fixed to pay that all off (ignoring all the other usual business running costs)? If they get scrapped because they get too expensive to repair, its money down the drain.
It isn't all like that: VAG-com and Vaux-com (Op-Com) are bargains in comparison. Where its a few hundred quid and no subscription fees.
Petrols vs diesels - for now petrol wins. But as more direct injected+turbocharged petrols get more mainstream and start to have issues, it'll even out. Direct injection technology is very similar to diesel technology, apart from it has to work at hotter temperatures without the lubrication that diesel fuel provides. swirl flaps, variable valve timing, variable valve lift, coil packs. Plenty to go wrong.
In the future the most reliable engines will be petrol engined Kia Picantos and Hyundai i10s. Basically they are a copy of a 1980s Nissan E series engine: no-frills engine technology (single cam, 8 valves, solid lifters etc), coupled with 1990s engine control (coil pack ignition, closed loop control etc. ) along with current production, materials and quality standards (lightweight, better tolerances etc). Simple low tech with modern manufacturing.
We've used some equipment for years, but it seems their support and lack of updates has become worse and worse. I'm guessing they are going to bring out a "all new" peice of kit and stop supporting the old kit. That'll be another £5K please sir...plus an extra few grand subscription costs. Smoke machine is worth its weight in gold....but that did cost £700. The laptop based oscillscope..£1400. The laptop £500. Power probe £150.
Access to vehicle date (Autodata) or workshop manuals, wiring diagrams or service bulletins. It all costs (usually - spaghetti coder was a great resource until BMW pulled the plug).
How many cars need to be fixed to pay that all off (ignoring all the other usual business running costs)? If they get scrapped because they get too expensive to repair, its money down the drain.
It isn't all like that: VAG-com and Vaux-com (Op-Com) are bargains in comparison. Where its a few hundred quid and no subscription fees.
Petrols vs diesels - for now petrol wins. But as more direct injected+turbocharged petrols get more mainstream and start to have issues, it'll even out. Direct injection technology is very similar to diesel technology, apart from it has to work at hotter temperatures without the lubrication that diesel fuel provides. swirl flaps, variable valve timing, variable valve lift, coil packs. Plenty to go wrong.
In the future the most reliable engines will be petrol engined Kia Picantos and Hyundai i10s. Basically they are a copy of a 1980s Nissan E series engine: no-frills engine technology (single cam, 8 valves, solid lifters etc), coupled with 1990s engine control (coil pack ignition, closed loop control etc. ) along with current production, materials and quality standards (lightweight, better tolerances etc). Simple low tech with modern manufacturing.
Last edited by ALi-B; 23 March 2014 at 12:47 PM.
23 March 2014, 12:50 PM
#25
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Weston Super Mare, Somerset.
Posts: 14,102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I seem to have been lucky so far in keeping my vehicles for a few extra miles.
My 405 petrol was still running well at 220k. Needed an engine management bit when under warranty and then 3 clutch cables and a new clutch (teaching daughter to drive
) plus exhaust unit. My 205 1.9 diesel finally gave up at 205k but had been abused by son running around Ireland with band equipment. My present Volvo 940 petrol tootles around with £170k and, touch wood, seems fine. Just lots of chips on windscreen 
It will be eligible for classic car insurance this year so might try that as it's usually pretty cheap.
dl
My 405 petrol was still running well at 220k. Needed an engine management bit when under warranty and then 3 clutch cables and a new clutch (teaching daughter to drive
) plus exhaust unit. My 205 1.9 diesel finally gave up at 205k but had been abused by son running around Ireland with band equipment. My present Volvo 940 petrol tootles around with £170k and, touch wood, seems fine. Just lots of chips on windscreen It will be eligible for classic car insurance this year so might try that as it's usually pretty cheap.dl
23 March 2014, 01:47 PM
#26
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Mars
Posts: 11,470
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While service intervals has grown, the complexity of cars does seem to means all too many problems.
Our camper (which lists at £53k) is incredibly well looked after but only has it's first (oil and filter) service after two years. Next one is another two years!
But it's had a new rear diff, a section of roof had to be stripped and re-painted (happens to nearly every California) and it's had a new steering column plus other smaller bits; probably £6-8k of work...
Luckily our last BMW was nearly fault free over 5.5 years but it does make you wonder.
Our camper (which lists at £53k) is incredibly well looked after but only has it's first (oil and filter) service after two years. Next one is another two years!
But it's had a new rear diff, a section of roof had to be stripped and re-painted (happens to nearly every California) and it's had a new steering column plus other smaller bits; probably £6-8k of work...
Luckily our last BMW was nearly fault free over 5.5 years but it does make you wonder.
23 March 2014, 03:36 PM
#27
That's one of our big and most inhibitive overheads - the diagnostic equipment, not just the purchase but the subscription fees.
We've used some equipment for years, but it seems their support and lack of updates has become worse and worse. I'm guessing they are going to bring out a "all new" peice of kit and stop supporting the old kit. That'll be another £5K please sir...plus an extra few grand subscription costs. Smoke machine is worth its weight in gold....but that did cost £700. The laptop based oscillscope..£1400. The laptop £500. Power probe £150.
Access to vehicle date (Autodata) or workshop manuals, wiring diagrams or service bulletins. It all costs (usually - spaghetti coder was a great resource until BMW pulled the plug).
How many cars need to be fixed to pay that all off (ignoring all the other usual business running costs)? If they get scrapped because they get too expensive to repair, its money down the drain.
It isn't all like that: VAG-com and Vaux-com (Op-Com) are bargains in comparison. Where its a few hundred quid and no subscription fees.
Petrols vs diesels - for now petrol wins. But as more direct injected+turbocharged petrols get more mainstream and start to have issues, it'll even out. Direct injection technology is very similar to diesel technology, apart from it has to work at hotter temperatures without the lubrication that diesel fuel provides. swirl flaps, variable valve timing, variable valve lift, coil packs. Plenty to go wrong.
In the future the most reliable engines will be petrol engined Kia Picantos and Hyundai i10s. Basically they are a copy of a 1980s Nissan E series engine: no-frills engine technology (single cam, 8 valves, solid lifters etc), coupled with 1990s engine control (coil pack ignition, closed loop control etc. ) along with current production, materials and quality standards (lightweight, better tolerances etc). Simple low tech with modern manufacturing.
We've used some equipment for years, but it seems their support and lack of updates has become worse and worse. I'm guessing they are going to bring out a "all new" peice of kit and stop supporting the old kit. That'll be another £5K please sir...plus an extra few grand subscription costs. Smoke machine is worth its weight in gold....but that did cost £700. The laptop based oscillscope..£1400. The laptop £500. Power probe £150.
Access to vehicle date (Autodata) or workshop manuals, wiring diagrams or service bulletins. It all costs (usually - spaghetti coder was a great resource until BMW pulled the plug).
How many cars need to be fixed to pay that all off (ignoring all the other usual business running costs)? If they get scrapped because they get too expensive to repair, its money down the drain.
It isn't all like that: VAG-com and Vaux-com (Op-Com) are bargains in comparison. Where its a few hundred quid and no subscription fees.
Petrols vs diesels - for now petrol wins. But as more direct injected+turbocharged petrols get more mainstream and start to have issues, it'll even out. Direct injection technology is very similar to diesel technology, apart from it has to work at hotter temperatures without the lubrication that diesel fuel provides. swirl flaps, variable valve timing, variable valve lift, coil packs. Plenty to go wrong.
In the future the most reliable engines will be petrol engined Kia Picantos and Hyundai i10s. Basically they are a copy of a 1980s Nissan E series engine: no-frills engine technology (single cam, 8 valves, solid lifters etc), coupled with 1990s engine control (coil pack ignition, closed loop control etc. ) along with current production, materials and quality standards (lightweight, better tolerances etc). Simple low tech with modern manufacturing.
Great post...I am in the same business as yourself,we specialise in diagnostics and mainly do trade stuff that the garages have given up on..
I think that high pressure petrol will prove to be a winner.. I was a Mitsubishi tech around 17 years ago when the GDi high pressure petrol range was brought in.. Problematic at first due to poor UK fuel but the longevity of the engine was proven..In fact my brother recently sold his old Gdi with 260k on..A mixture of age,steering rack and various other foibles sent it to the scrap yard..
New car purchased.....Another Mitzy....lol..
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
ossett2k2
Engine Management and ECU Remapping
15
23 September 2015 09:11 AM