ScoobyDoo555

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-18060226

NO increase in "contact" time, despite tripling the fees.
Higher Education is no longer value for money.

Disgraceful and shameful.


And yes, I'm a Lecturer.

GlesgaKiss

Interesting. How long have you been a lecturer? Apart from this, what do you think of the way higher education has changed in recent years and the general standard of higher education in the UK?

ScoobyWon't

More importantly, why are you wasting time posting here, when you could be out increasing "contact" with the students?

Surely there must be some attractive students worth extended "contact"

ScoobyDoo555

LOL. The "contact" you refer to actually makes my skin crawl.

My academic/teaching contact is minimal at the moment (more so facilitation) due to end-of-year assessments.

FWIW, I've been a Lecturer for 12 years now. Starting part-time when I began to leave the Music Business, and now run a Music Tech section. I balance my time between management and admin, class-contact and outside work.
I hate the excessive admin paperwork, but love the lessons and outside work.

The daft thing about HE is that the delivery of lessons/subjects hasn't actually changed that much (imho). What has changed is that the fees have gone up with no perceivable REAL benefit to the customer (student).

The general standard, I think has got easier - I'm highly cynical about the A-Level grades going up and up. The papers/assessments have been made easier or more focused on particular aspects. The general grammar and grasp of the English language has plummeted. Embarrassingly so!
No doubt there are some subject areas that have bucked the trend, but not many.

Starting in schools, and progressing to FE, the whole process is easier, and especially in FE, timetables are constantly being shaved back in attempts to be "efficient". All that happens is that both staff and student lose out.

I see a comparison (in a way) to these intense driving lessons that guarantee you a pass within a week (for example).
Yes, you know how to drive, but you don't get the full learning experience...

In other words, the less contact time you have in class, the less exposure to the learning experience you get.
Self-study works for some, but in the majority not (hence why we all have our own learning style)

Dan

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Applications down by 1/3rd THIS year alone.
Most unis now scabbling about trying to fill places, not enough applicants on many, many courses.

I can see courses closing and academics being out of work........

Cheers Labour, cheers coalition, ANOTHER job well done!

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

Personally, I don't see falling numbers as a problem.

There are too many people in university who really aren't clever enough to be there, as well as mickey mouse courses which are hopefully on the way out. The amount of people who take degrees and then go on to (maybe) get a job, 90% of the time completely unrelated to their field of study, must raise the question of what the point of their time there was.

Those two things really have devalued the concept of a university education.

Dr Hu

^^^^^ Agree wholeheartedly.....

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

I was a university lecturer for 13 years.......MSc, PHd and all that. Glad I jumped ship really. Certainly in a worse state than the NHS where I jumped to !!


Are you tenured then ScoobDoo ?

Shaun

speedking

Government funding goes down, fees go up to compensate. Total remains the same. Why would there be an improvement in quality?

LSherratt

iTrader: (1)

I'm 21 and left university almost 2 years ago.

I was studying a 3 year course in Criminology and Criminal Justice, passed all my exams for the first 2 years, and then left ....didn't continue the third year.

Reason; because I didn't enjoy the course, it was pretty boring even though it's what I wanted to do (at the time), and half the time we were drinking down the students union or chilling in our Halls of residence. Plus my Dad also offered me a job which has been a great opportunity for me and I've stuck with it

To be honest, I didn't even find the teaching that great, although that may be down to specific Universities.

Turbohot

There are a lot of lecturers in almost every university with hardly any skills to get through even a mosquito net, and they lack qualities to keep students engaged and interested in studies. There's a difference between the "educated" and the "educator". Just because someone is a PhD doesn't make them a great tutor. They think they cetrainly gain the power, because the students' degrees are in their mighty hands, aren't they? Some of the half-filled ones stink of arrogance for they have achieved the power to educate others by doing well academically. In lectures, their incompetence shines through with their heavy powerpoints and ambiguous answers to questions. In summary, knowledge isn't power for an educator, its how one imparts it. Some pretty good ones and some very poor lecturers and professors knocking about there. This university fee going up is not good. There will be more without degrees now. The ones not interested don't bother with university education, anyway. But the ones interested won't be able to afford.

Lee247

My daughter has just put in 2 years at college with a view to going to Uni to become a teacher. She has been put off by the massive hike in fees.
Luckily my Son finishes his Criminology course at Uni in a couple of weeks and his fees were just 3k per year. That is bad enough without tripling it

Dave Hedgehog

iTrader: (1)

Where the hell do all these criminologists go?! It's like psychology. So many psychology graduates....

All this stems from the ridiculous assertion by T. Blair that 50% of people should go to University. To what ends?! Are 50% of the jobs in the UK in need of graduates? No.

So they built false capacity, charged fees, increased fees and now the whole system has to come crumbling down because who in their right mind wants to emerge into the jobs market with a degree in musicology and golf Course management from the University of Western East Anglia, and £30k debt?

Everyone in universites has seen this on the cards for years. sadly, those courses which are viable will remain, and the chaff will fall by the wayside. The same goes for universities, and we'll be back to the 80's again, only with extortionate fees for students.

subaruturbo_18

Out of all of my mates who went to uni, 1 has a good job, and mortgage(rich parents gave him a load of money though) and he's 23. None of the others have a mortgage, or outstanding job. 3 of my other mates who didn't go to uni have mortgages, 2 of them on 30k plus salaries, the other on 60k plus. They are also all 23.


Thought this was relevant...

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Whilst not disagreeing, I really don't see it as a good idea that 30% MORE eighteen years olds and maybe a few lecturers go on the dole instead this summer..........do you?

After all, what jobs are there?

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Agreed, but it was a cynical way to keep them off the dole for a time. And have THEM pay for it

Now, when someone comes out of uni with a degree in media studies, he/she is too good for most manual jobs.

Where the hell Blair thought our trades people were going to come from if 50% of people went to uni......the next 50% down?
How thick was that guy?

LSherratt

iTrader: (1)

Agree with a lot of what has been said so far. Most of my friends have been to University because at our school, it was drummed into us to go to Uni, but over half still don't have decent jobs.

If I wasn't offered a job by my Dad (I was only offered it because our previous manager left to go travelling), I would have stuck out the 3 years at Uni, achieved my degree in Criminology, and probably turned my part-time Homebase job in the summer holidays into a full-time retail job -thank god that never happened.

I wanted to work somewhere regarding the law and the criminal justice system hense why I chose Criminology & Criminal Justice, but I realised that while at Uni, it wasn't really my thing.

Funnily enough, today in the post I had a document from the Student Loans company. Roughly £13,500 to payoff from 2 years at Uni (parents have helped me out otherwise it would be more like £19,000).....

madscoob

iTrader: (3)

most of them are training for jobs that doen't exist anyway , my cousin went to uni , and had a levels on every subject she took . she went on to pass everything and got 4degrees . job at the end of all that (cashier in bank ) for five years , in fairness she now teaches infants maths in london . no high flyer imho a massive waste of tax payers money

LSherratt

iTrader: (1)

^4 degrees? F**k me. I don't know how people can go through with all of that and study for so long. Personally, revising for exams did my nut in

madscoob

iTrader: (3)

yep 4
english
german
french
maths
so far as i know she did well with the bank , got a 1year transfer to french branch in buero de change . came back went to oz for 12months decided she wanted to be a teacher as she loves kids . no earns peanuts as a teacher but her hubby earns silly money working for bt

Lee247

Well, my Lad wants to join the Police Force. Has done since he was a boy. Hence studying Criminology. He is currently doing Uni during the day, working at HMRC from 4:30pm - 9pm and working every other Saturday as a Safety Steward at the Stadium of Light. I think it's fair to say he is paying his way in society
It's my daughter I feel sorry for. 9k per year fees would not appeal to me either

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

Using higher education as a means to keep people off unemployment is nonsensical. Tax-payer money is just being wasted on them and their courses (perhaps more than it would cost in unemployment, tho not sure), and they often end up in jobs they could get into straight from school anyway.

And of those that don't go to uni, I'm sure they won't all go into unemployment, but hopefully focus their minds into doing what they want to do, not what they are expected to do.

speedking

For those that don't know, you don't have to pay the fees up front. It is a loan from the government that the student pays back in the future as a percentage of their earnings above a threshold. For all intents and purposes a graduate tax.

There is a means tested element. For Universities to charge £9k pa they have had to increase the grants available to students from poorer families. So no-one should not be able to go to University if they want.

ScoobyDoo555

Midlife - I'm not tenured as I don't work in HE. I work in FE. I'm the one who's usually given the impossible task of training up the school-leavers to get the basic education they NEED to get into college (and the real world) as opposed the National Curriculum that the schools have to teach them parrot-fashion to pass.
This may not actually be the case, but it certainly feels like it, when kids turn up with GCSEs @ C or above, yet our diagnostics (and later on, assignment proof) state that they can barely tie their shoelaces
So not only do we have to teach the "basics", we then deliver the harder material that they've actually come to college to learn. A tough ask, especially as FE's being squeezed for hours/efficiency improvements too. (the difference is that FE doesn't screw the student/customer... well, not as much )

The biggest issue, is as others have stated, it's now fashionable to go to Uni. A certain government deemed it a right to go to University.

An excellent idea, and in general terms, wholly supported. But what seemed to get missed out of the equation, is that just because a "kid" has the right to go to Uni, it doesn't necessarily mean that they should. We all plateau academically at different levels. Some people just simply shouldn't go to Uni.

This fashionable idea, I think, is what has got us into the trouble that there aren't enough people getting into the service and skilled trades - they like this delusion that they can get a degree and get a highly paid job in an an office with a Porsche and big house.

And as for all these wishy-washy degrees, this has also devalued the "currency" of a degree.
Most of my lot DON'T go on to degree (although there are plenty of places offering BSCs etc in Music Tech & Sound Engineering) - those that do, however find themselves in audio-design, electronics, graphic design/animation, mobile technology.

The BEST thing that can happen is that the lid is lifted on this lot imho.

FWIW, (and it's not blowing smoke up my backside) I had an ex-student contact me last week. In the throws of conversation, I asked how he was getting on (at one of the better Unis in the UK) - he said that he had preferred his time at college....... due to the fact that the tutors were more approachable and actually gave a t0ss about the student and the subject. He said that his professors basically built a brick-wall up between them and the students. And despite paying an EXTORTIONATE amount per year, the kit in comparison to the college was rubbish.....

Which begs the question, where is all this extra money going?

<and relax>

ScoobyWon't

In honesty Lee, the jobs he is working will stand him in better stead to join the police, rather than a degree in Criminology.

It's his people skills and ability to communicate that will be to his benefit. A lot of PCSOs can't pass the assessments to become a constable, due to the fact that they have seen how constables work, and try to mimic this, whereas this is not what they are being tested for.

Tell him to keep up the jobs, as being able to talk to people and get his message across, no matter the situation, especially in a football stadium where people may have had a few beers and act in a group mentality.

Before the recession, there was a 50:1 application per post rate. I suspect it will be much higher when applications open again.

RobsyUK

iTrader: (2)

Less talk about lessions!!! Tell us the stories of girls showing bra for higher grades ... The stories of a teacher being fingered etc....

lol

Lee247

I'll show him this It's his graduation in June this year. Just got the tickets. He has always wanted to join the Police from a very young age. He got his NVQ in Safety Management from the Stadium and seems to enjoy the job. He is also enjoying HMRC but I doubt he wants to make a career of that. We shall see. Thanks John

tony de wonderful

It's the Sophists vs Socrates.

The Sophists were professional 'wise men' who possessed knowledge and thus power. Socrates was about self-criticism and knowing one is fallible and imperfect, "I know one thing, that I know nothing" etc.

I'm doing a postgrad starting in Sep so quite interested to see the standard of lecturing etc.

tony de wonderful

Socrates showed you could teach a slave simple geometry I believe. He did this to show the authorities that it was not just the elites who can be educated. Do we see education as some mechanism to differentiate between elites and non-elites or as some more holistic process for individual development?

CREWJ

I didn't think it was extra money. I thought the fees went up because they stopped the funding. Or am I being naive?