Dedrater

Haven't seen a thread like this around for a while

+Doc+

Hey Keep Justin Bieber out of this.... :|

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

The thing I find most offensive about the above .
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Justin Bieber!!!!!!!

To be honest the subject has been done to death and is just plain boring. Both sides are effectively talking different languages.

No religious person is suddenly going to say: "I've wasted my life with this stuff" and no atheist is suddenly going to say: "pray for my good health"

So really should probably save us a load of RTMs and just lock the thread now

jonc

Jesus Christ! Took me 20 minutes to read all of the first post!

cster

If you wrote people instead of religion, I guess you might have a valid point.

Trippie

iTrader: (1)

there is only one thing wrong with this world,
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.it has human's on it.

boxst

I think that the original goal of religion is/was a good one: To make sure that people can co-exist and have basic decency towards each other. In addition it gives a reason for being, a calmness about dying.

I am (at the moment) happy that my children think that dying is okay and that they have an eternal soul. It certainly makes them more peaceful than me who currently thinks that this is it and there is an eternity of nothingness (off to reach for the valium).

But, of course, it is taken to extremes and you have all the things in the first post.

Can't win really.

Steve

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

human's what?

boxst

Sorry, way too serious there.

Back to normal ...

JTaylor

Only superficially. I've even resorted to taking the pro position as the anti-theists on here appeared equipped to do battle, but it seems they've not read beyond Dawkins and run out of ideas or capacity or both very early on in the game. Nevermind. Unless you fancy a go? Theist or anti-theist, I'll take either.

GlesgaKiss

Ok, I'm a convert. Where do I sign

mamoon2

Amen to that!

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

It isnt religion thats the problem, even though its all bollocks, its people, if there was no religion they would fight and kill over something else they like or dont like, look at the Apple debates in here for example

Hammer man

iTrader: (25)

X marks the spot...

john banks

I'm enjoying Christopher Hitchen's God is Not Great presently. Anyone else read/comment on it?

JTaylor

https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...light=Hitchens

Superb book, but as you'd expect from a Marxist thinker, ignores the subjective. If you're enjoying it I'd recommend Hitch 22 and his work on Orwell and Jefferson. Also, his polemic on 'Mother' Teresa. And his essays. Actually, just read, watch and listen to his compete works and stand back in awe! I'm still missing him and suspect I will forever; I've stopped reading Slate.

john banks

He certainly unpacks it in a more satisfying manner than Dawkins. Has consolidated a few things in my mind as I had a 7 year delusion during A-levels and most of medical school where I was about as serious a happy clappy as it was possible to be. It did me immense damage during an important formative period.

JTaylor

Were you a literalist, John?

john banks

Yes. The cognitive dissonance became too much of an effort. The literal belief in signs/wonders including prophecy, tongues, healing, contrasting with a medical education and constant disappointment (once I overcame the wishful thinking) at unfulfilled biblical promises was too much to continue in that state of lunacy.

JTaylor

Wow. So you've actually experienced two different realities; must give you great insight. Did you mourn the loss of your theistic reality or was it a release or both? How did the transformation go? I guess you resent Evangelicalism now for having spun you a yarn. How did you get through first year physics with young Earth still in tact?

john banks

Massive release, improved my marriage, confidence, self image, finances, free time, relationships with everyone except Christians, ability to think/decide for myself, work ethic, moral values. No longer was I pleasing "God", but I could do believe and do what I wanted. For example, kindness to someone, anonymously or not, the content of which was far more valuable than selling them a subscription to mind chains, became something that was far more genuine when you did it because you believed the here and now was it and that you simply wanted to help.

Jettisoning was comparable to the effect that those suffering delusions can achieve with a good anti-psychotic. Looking at the statement after I typed it appears like it might be over-egging the pudding. On the other hand, people with delusions can function at a high social level and hold down responsible jobs. They are still in some domains in misery due to their delusions. Religion is excluded from the definition of a delusion. Some forms of it probably shouldn't be excluded.

Literalism, or at least the breed of it that I had, didn't have a young earth belief.

Some religion (usually the type that a fundamentalist would arrogantly call "nominal") is probably harmless as it isn't too life changing or dogmatic, it doesn't take over. If the claims of more fundamentalist religions are true they do demand a decision as they are uncompromising. If true, I used to think the claims of fundamental Christianity were incredible and liberating. Now, if they were true, I would have no respect in that God, and if hell is being separated from that God, that is where I would rather be as I find the whole thing repugnant now.

JTaylor

Thanks for sharing. I think everyone would agree that fundamentalism needs challenging in all its forms. I'm friends with an Evangelical and his father who's a minister and enjoy their company very much, but at dinner I'm always conscious of the fact they believe humans and dinosaurs occupied the Earth at the same time. So you were an old-Earth creationist? JW or was it really, really fubar?

Martin2005

It is not the religION the 'doing the damage' it's the so-called religIOUS

john banks

The two churches I was in were members of the Evangelical Alliance. They could both be described as charismatic or neo-pentecostal. They were fairly authoritarian, encouraged tithing, midweek meetings galore, two hour Sunday meetings with prolonged full band worship sessions (involving hyping people up), altar calls (people would fall over and manifest in various ways, claim to be healed, prophesy etc).

I was an old Earth creationist. There is at least one church like this in every town. Lunatic fringe on your doorstep.

JTaylor

This is making me cringe. Seriously toe-curling! It's the fraud being committed by the ministers that infuriates me. They understand the dynamics: the crowd is untruth, suggestibility in heightened state, groupthink and so on. They must be versed in neurotheology and Ericksonian induction; one would have to be, surely, in order to pull it off! I might go along to one for a laugh - spike the Holy water to really spice things up!

JTaylor

I've noticed most ministers have a good command of NLP. I imagine Jesus did, too.

john banks

I think most of the ones I dealt with genuinely believed they were not manipulating crowds but that the Holy Spirit was doing it. When I came out of it all, I was a home group leader and had done a fair bit of leadership training. The only funny thing going on was some very wacky beliefs and the NLP etc was unintentional.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

JTaylor

I'll defer to your judgement as I wasn't there, but the pastors in the States are definately at it. My mate's father is retiring and his little church has taken on a young charismatic (toned-down against what you've described) and I went to a service recently and it was text-book NLP; straight out of Bandler and Grinder. I want to get him on his own and ask him when he's unprepared, see if there are any tells. I'm not that bothered, it may be a noble lie scenario, but I can't imagine it's simply coincidence - he was anchoring and swishing, the whole nine yards.

swaynie

iTrader: (6)

Religion = bollocks and 99% of wars are caused by religion and all of the wars are caused by the religious extremists but you cant be religious without religion so its all bollocks.

One day religion will consume itself and it will all end very violently lets hope it happens soon so we can get on with more important things like what mod to add to my scooby next