The answer had better be Yes, or you’ll be out, Greece is warned
03 November 2011, 04:04 AM
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The answer had better be Yes, or you’ll be out, Greece is warned
From The Times today:
"Germany and France warned Greece last night that it would be thrown out of the euro and possibly the European Union if its people voted in a referendum against the latest rescue package agreed a week ago by leaders of the 17-nation single currency.
After subjecting George Papandreou, the Greek Prime Minister, to a severe dressing down, Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, and President Sarkozy also told him that Greece would not receive a cent of its latest ¤8 billion aid cheque until the referendum returned a “yes” vote.
The two leaders, who had summoned Mr Papandreou to Cannes to explain his shock decision to call a referendum, extracted a promise from him to stage it on December 4, a month earlier than he originally suggested.
Ms Merkel used blunt language to broach what until now had been officially unthinkable: the departure of Greece from the euro. “The referendum . . . in essence is about nothing else but the question, ‘does Greece want to stay in the eurozone, yes or no?” she said. “We want to continue with Greece but there are rules and we cannot accept that they are not respected.”
Mr Sarkozy, who had barely been able to contain his rage on hearing of the referendum on Tuesday, said that the Greeks must understand that the referendum was about whether they want to remain in the “European project”. “Our Greek friends must decide whether they want to continue the journey with us,” he said.
Full article: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/w...cle3213865.ece
Anyone else think that Merkel & Sarkozy are pretending that they're Hitler & Napoleon?
"Germany and France warned Greece last night that it would be thrown out of the euro and possibly the European Union if its people voted in a referendum against the latest rescue package agreed a week ago by leaders of the 17-nation single currency.
After subjecting George Papandreou, the Greek Prime Minister, to a severe dressing down, Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, and President Sarkozy also told him that Greece would not receive a cent of its latest ¤8 billion aid cheque until the referendum returned a “yes” vote.
The two leaders, who had summoned Mr Papandreou to Cannes to explain his shock decision to call a referendum, extracted a promise from him to stage it on December 4, a month earlier than he originally suggested.
Ms Merkel used blunt language to broach what until now had been officially unthinkable: the departure of Greece from the euro. “The referendum . . . in essence is about nothing else but the question, ‘does Greece want to stay in the eurozone, yes or no?” she said. “We want to continue with Greece but there are rules and we cannot accept that they are not respected.”
Mr Sarkozy, who had barely been able to contain his rage on hearing of the referendum on Tuesday, said that the Greeks must understand that the referendum was about whether they want to remain in the “European project”. “Our Greek friends must decide whether they want to continue the journey with us,” he said.
Full article: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/w...cle3213865.ece
Anyone else think that Merkel & Sarkozy are pretending that they're Hitler & Napoleon?
03 November 2011, 04:44 AM
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03 November 2011, 08:58 AM
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It's all political b*llux by those involved. If the Greek PM really was concerned with the "democratic" deficit then we'd know what the referendum was going to ask people. As for the poison dwarf and the one 'Berlusconi wouldn't', they're trying to frighten the Greek people into voting the right way .... Anything so the great 'social engineering project that is the EU' doesn't get de-railed.
Dave
Dave
03 November 2011, 10:22 AM
#7
Why? So we (or the EU to be more precise
) can save a few billion quid on yet another pointless Greek bailout? Or is it just a case of the moral satisfaction of sticking two fingers up at the EU? Which as nice as appealing that would sound. I don't think the greek people would benefit - they are screwed either way. Without forcibly removing every Greek politician that, up to this point are proven to be unable to manage their own country, they have no hope.
Last edited by ALi-B; 03 November 2011 at 10:41 AM.
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03 November 2011, 10:39 AM
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what if greece votes 'yes' takes the cash and defaults on repayments.? surely they'll finally get booted out .!
wasted eu money for sure.!
IMO the EU is modern day Communism. :0
wasted eu money for sure.!
IMO the EU is modern day Communism. :0
03 November 2011, 10:59 AM
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Well in the grand scheme of things, it is....to point...
There is nothing wrong with pure Communism, the ideology of everything equal for all is something I have always been fascinated by, but the EU is far far from that, as its based upon capitalist empires which contradicts these ideologies.
There is nothing wrong with pure Communism, the ideology of everything equal for all is something I have always been fascinated by, but the EU is far far from that, as its based upon capitalist empires which contradicts these ideologies.
03 November 2011, 12:57 PM
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Why? So we (or the EU to be more precise ) can save a few billion quid on yet another pointless Greek bailout?
Or is it just a case of the moral satisfaction of sticking two fingers up at the EU? Which as nice as appealing that would sound. I don't think the greek people would benefit - they are screwed either way. Without forcibly removing every Greek politician that, up to this point are proven to be unable to manage their own country, they have no hope.
) can save a few billion quid on yet another pointless Greek bailout? Or is it just a case of the moral satisfaction of sticking two fingers up at the EU? Which as nice as appealing that would sound. I don't think the greek people would benefit - they are screwed either way. Without forcibly removing every Greek politician that, up to this point are proven to be unable to manage their own country, they have no hope.
03 November 2011, 01:01 PM
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Greece have no need to be a part of the EU superstate, I wish the UK was seperate as well,it has not done the Swiss any harm has it ? The German and French banks are in trouble they love a free market when it suits them but cannot stand it when free market rules apply to them, as usual normal hard working people will foot the bill for bankers cockups. Bollocks to it, if any French banks go under let them go its not like the banks pay **** all tax on profits so screw them. The Greek people have no need to pay the bill for the failings of a corrupt Government let the banks deal with their own mistakes. I am sure the people in charge of lending that money to Greece got a nice bonus for doing it. So the Greek people should tell the EU to get fcuked.
Remember RBS/Lloyds/Bank of Scotland/Northern Rock? **** all to do with the UK economy and everythign to do with the rest of the world.
If they go under we'll be up the creek without a paddle anyway, EU or not.
as for the 'modern communism' perhaps someone should explain that to the St Paul's lot since that' what they are after.
5t.
03 November 2011, 01:07 PM
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LPb, you honestly could do with reading some balanced commentaries on this situation rather than frothing at the mouth, spouting anti-bank rhetoric to anyone who'll listen. You're just exposing how little you really understand about the causes/effects.
03 November 2011, 01:51 PM
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Just been looking at the figures. They are shafted, plain and simple.
They have about 3 weeks worth of (borrowed) money left to run the country, if they dont get the 8Bn by the end of the month they will be unable to pay anyone, including their own people who work in local govt or anyone on a govt pension.
The markets are looking better today, but in reality they are defaulting on 50% of their debt should this go through..
Italy still looking risky too.
Euro bank interest rates have been reduced today.
Its not looking good..
They have about 3 weeks worth of (borrowed) money left to run the country, if they dont get the 8Bn by the end of the month they will be unable to pay anyone, including their own people who work in local govt or anyone on a govt pension.
The markets are looking better today, but in reality they are defaulting on 50% of their debt should this go through..
Italy still looking risky too.
Euro bank interest rates have been reduced today.
Its not looking good..
03 November 2011, 01:55 PM
#18
as for the 'modern communism' perhaps someone should explain that to the St Paul's lot since that' what they are after.
I think they are more wannabe anarchists/libartarians moreso tahn wannabe commies, but with an over romantic view of their ideologies. However I still think neither are a viable alternative as all are prone to corruption.
03 November 2011, 02:18 PM
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03 November 2011, 04:00 PM
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You've got to hand it to the Greek public - in the Times today it states that out of a population of 3.25m in Athens only 324 residents declared that they have a swimming pool on their 2010 tax returns.
Tax inspectors using satellite imaging found the actual number to be 16,974....
And the tax avoidance cost to Greece each year is estimated at $30bn.
Who to blame - the lax government or the populace?
Tax inspectors using satellite imaging found the actual number to be 16,974....
And the tax avoidance cost to Greece each year is estimated at $30bn.
Who to blame - the lax government or the populace?
03 November 2011, 04:12 PM
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You've got to hand it to the Greek public - in the Times today it states that out of a population of 3.25m in Athens only 324 residents declared that they have a swimming pool on their 2010 tax returns.
Tax inspectors using satellite imaging found the actual number to be 16,974....
And the tax avoidance cost to Greece each year is estimated at $30bn.
Who to blame - the lax government or the populace?
Tax inspectors using satellite imaging found the actual number to be 16,974....
And the tax avoidance cost to Greece each year is estimated at $30bn.
Who to blame - the lax government or the populace?
03 November 2011, 04:24 PM
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It's a rich gravy train that they don't want to stop.
The problem is that all the unpaid tax is probably lost forever, meaning the lower paid Greeks will suffer even more for the dishonesty of those who got away with it for year upon year. Mismanagement on an epic scale.
The problem is that all the unpaid tax is probably lost forever, meaning the lower paid Greeks will suffer even more for the dishonesty of those who got away with it for year upon year. Mismanagement on an epic scale.
03 November 2011, 05:31 PM
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I am not surprised that the banking profession disagrees but even a banker must admit that using an economic crises to enforce political changes on a country is wrong. I don't think that anyone can dispute that forcing Greece to privatise rail networks etc is political more than it is financial. If the the 'troika' was comitted to only enforcing a financial regime then the situation would be different but forcing a political change is wrong and typical of the IMF.
03 November 2011, 06:03 PM
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I am not surprised that the banking profession disagrees but even a banker must admit that using an economic crises to enforce political changes on a country is wrong. I don't think that anyone can dispute that forcing Greece to privatise rail networks etc is political more than it is financial. If the the 'troika' was comitted to only enforcing a financial regime then the situation would be different but forcing a political change is wrong and typical of the IMF.
EU?
Euro?
Bankers?
IMF?
Or
Corrupt politicians
Perennial Oligarchs
Rampant tax avoidance
Dysfunctional public service
The Greek problem is not one of fiscal mismanagement, it is one of fundamental social and political corruption
03 November 2011, 11:38 PM
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Your post is completely pointless . Greek politicians have cocked up, that is still in no way justification for enforcing a deeply flawed, politically driven, free market economic system upon a nation who have not voted for it. It is still the right of the Greek people to make a choice and if they choose not to pay, default and leave the EU then I think they will be better off.
04 November 2011, 11:40 AM
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From The Times today:
"Germany and France warned Greece last night that it would be thrown out of the euro and possibly the European Union if its people voted in a referendum against the latest rescue package agreed a week ago by leaders of the 17-nation single currency.
After subjecting George Papandreou, the Greek Prime Minister, to a severe dressing down, Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, and President Sarkozy also told him that Greece would not receive a cent of its latest ¤8 billion aid cheque until the referendum returned a “yes” vote.
The two leaders, who had summoned Mr Papandreou to Cannes to explain his shock decision to call a referendum, extracted a promise from him to stage it on December 4, a month earlier than he originally suggested.
Ms Merkel used blunt language to broach what until now had been officially unthinkable: the departure of Greece from the euro. “The referendum . . . in essence is about nothing else but the question, ‘does Greece want to stay in the eurozone, yes or no?” she said. “We want to continue with Greece but there are rules and we cannot accept that they are not respected.”
Mr Sarkozy, who had barely been able to contain his rage on hearing of the referendum on Tuesday, said that the Greeks must understand that the referendum was about whether they want to remain in the “European project”. “Our Greek friends must decide whether they want to continue the journey with us,” he said.
Full article: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/w...cle3213865.ece
Anyone else think that Merkel & Sarkozy are pretending that they're Hitler & Napoleon?
"Germany and France warned Greece last night that it would be thrown out of the euro and possibly the European Union if its people voted in a referendum against the latest rescue package agreed a week ago by leaders of the 17-nation single currency.
After subjecting George Papandreou, the Greek Prime Minister, to a severe dressing down, Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, and President Sarkozy also told him that Greece would not receive a cent of its latest ¤8 billion aid cheque until the referendum returned a “yes” vote.
The two leaders, who had summoned Mr Papandreou to Cannes to explain his shock decision to call a referendum, extracted a promise from him to stage it on December 4, a month earlier than he originally suggested.
Ms Merkel used blunt language to broach what until now had been officially unthinkable: the departure of Greece from the euro. “The referendum . . . in essence is about nothing else but the question, ‘does Greece want to stay in the eurozone, yes or no?” she said. “We want to continue with Greece but there are rules and we cannot accept that they are not respected.”
Mr Sarkozy, who had barely been able to contain his rage on hearing of the referendum on Tuesday, said that the Greeks must understand that the referendum was about whether they want to remain in the “European project”. “Our Greek friends must decide whether they want to continue the journey with us,” he said.
Full article: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/w...cle3213865.ece
Anyone else think that Merkel & Sarkozy are pretending that they're Hitler & Napoleon?
Why should the Germans and French listen to the demands of a PM, some of whose citizens are taking pensions in their mid 30's. The country is a basket case.
04 November 2011, 12:20 PM
#29
You've got to hand it to the Greek public - in the Times today it states that out of a population of 3.25m in Athens only 324 residents declared that they have a swimming pool on their 2010 tax returns.
Tax inspectors using satellite imaging found the actual number to be 16,974....
And the tax avoidance cost to Greece each year is estimated at $30bn.
Who to blame - the lax government or the populace?
Tax inspectors using satellite imaging found the actual number to be 16,974....
And the tax avoidance cost to Greece each year is estimated at $30bn.
Who to blame - the lax government or the populace?
). This individualistic approach to taxes, earnings and personal welfare is their downfall (and will be ours if we do not sort out our own welfare state, civil sector and tax avoidance).Black money/tax avoidance, as well as civil sector bloat and benefits reliance is nothing new, it is intertwined with the liberty belief that a person either passively or actively objects/rebels againsts authority and financial responsibility it places upon them, or they think that the state owes them something that is disproportionate to what they individually contribute.
This will always be an issue in many countries (Spain, Portugal, Italy etc....for now, UK to follow later). But its how much of a blind eye is given to it that is the issue. The crux problem is the people are only doing what they percieve their peers do be doing - be it politicians, or high level managers in corperate/private/civil sectors. We all know some are on the fiddle, and if they can do it, why not us? This is the moral rot that will undermine every countries economy as people become more and more determined to seek a better way of life.
In short; We (and they) are screwed*.
*I'll reflect on this later over a beer, and decide that maybe things aren't that bad...I still can buy a beer...(for now), and you never know somebody maybe able to fix this mess LOL.
Last edited by ALi-B; 04 November 2011 at 12:23 PM.
04 November 2011, 12:23 PM
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...of course they are free to choose, BUT they are not really free to choose as that freedom comes at a cost to pretty much every individual in Europe who pays tax or has a bank account.
The point is they are free to stay or free to leave. But if you stay at my party you obey my house rules. You want gravy then I'll tell you where to sit at the table.