f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

All the figures point to the UK economy sliding back into stagnation at best and with the tax receipts falling way short of forecasts net government borrowing is actually going up, not down.

Now just about every think tank and business body is saying that Osborne needs to do something differently to avoid failing to meet his own tragets for deficit and debt reduction let alone economic growth.

Of course being a politician there is no way he seems even intrested in dicussing the notion he may be wrong on this, but that is no real surprise.

Not wishing to say I told you so but some 18 months ago I stated that I felt the cuts and austerity measures (for want of a better term) were too much too soon and that some balance was needed between leaving enough room for the economy to grow and reeling in the government borrowing.

Oh sod it.... I told you so!

TelBoy

On balance, i do agree with you.

But let's be clear, and this will be the biggest hurdle for you to accept i think, the austerity measures were required, Labour had spent us into shocking debt. You could almost feel Darling's embarrassment when he delivered his last Budget. If you don't accept that fundamental truth, then any criticism of the current Government is futile.

When the Tories came to power, there was only one window available to introduce austerity measures - right after the election win. Do it mid-term and you might as well resign yourself to the right hand side of the House of Commons at the next election.

What we have now, though, is an economy suffering from higher than expected inflation, meaning households aren't as prosperous as Osborne calculated. Furthermore, his plans to cut the public sector workforce in the current climate are unhelpful at best. This is perhaps the area which he should re-visit, to bolster what confidence remains, and to prevent swathes of the population becoming unproductive at the time the ecomony needs their input the most.

EddScott

The public sector has to be reigned in. Speaking to a middle management council official, he said 10 years ago middle managment income was around £40K - now its like £100K. I've seen a middle management council pension fund of £650K!

Not saying that everyone in public sector is overpaid - front line probably take a big hit but then they are easy targets. The whole public sector mindset needs resetting.

I just don't think you can expect growth and austerity to go hand in hand. As a household if you overspend, you've got a few months of stagnant life until you pay the debt. Its no different for a country.

I would have to give them one full term and then see what happens. When they can no longer say "the mess we inherited" that will be the real test.

What I do think they are doing is missing the boat with small business. Theres so much focus on making sure money is there to be lent to small business, it doesn't really take into account the issues for small business and especially for the high street. Big reductions in business rates is needed - phased over 4 years from 75% to 0% discount. Government putting in incentives to the local councils to favour business moving into the town and not retail wharehouses.

Landlords got very greedy regarding commercial property but it wasn't an issue because people were spending their money. Now people aren't spending yet commercial rent is still too expensive for most firms. The government must focus on getting towns moving again. Put huge taxes on new out of town planning.

pslewis

If you reduce the numers of Civil Servants/Council Workers you increase the unemployment figures, you have dis-satisfied members of society, you have people who have no stake in society, you make more families poor, the savings are maginal as the benefits to be paid (direct and indirect) may amount to 90% of the true cost of their old wages!

If the Bank of England can print and give Banks £75 billion, as they are currently doing, why not give all the adults in the UK £4,000 in vouchers to buy stuff ..... cost the same, will kick start the economy in a much better way than rewarding Banks for failure.

Osborne and Cameron haven't a clue about what's going on in the country, sheltered as they always have been behind inherited wealth and private education ..... their idea of being hard up is if their bank balance slips below £10 million!!

They are the Laurel and Hardy of the Political world ..... we yearn for the leadership, charm and charisma of Blair ..... we desperately need the finacial expertise of Brown and the integrity of Darling.

We are a ship difting .... the Eton Boyz haven't a clue ............

I'm not voting on the poll becuase what we need is a different Government, not asking whether a clown like Osborne has half a clue ....

JTaylor

@ "damp squid"

TelBoy

Lewis, for once and for all, shut the **** up about Cameron and Osborne's background. Keep to the debate or **** off.

pslewis

You're getting a bit big for your boots these days .... STFU ...... post back in muppets where your comments belong

tony de wonderful

The public sector will lead to national insolvency if it is not scaled back.

pslewis

The BOE has printed £275billion to give to the Banks who cannot do their jobs properly.

Use it to keep people in work and to encourage them to spend .... let's get growth going!!

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Not hard to accept at all Tel. The previous government were a disgrace especially in the latter half of their 'reign' and their handling of the economy was their second biggest mistake in my book (after Iraq, but that is for another thread).

While I take on board your point about introducing austerity measures mid term etc. I do feel we need a government that does what is right for the country not for their election chances. That applies to any party btw.

As it happens though I think the austerity measures were introduced at the right time, but it is their magnitude that bothered me. It was like the pendulum was swinging too far the other way if you see the analogy.

I think we needed a more targeted approach that overall cut in the right places while still leaving enough room for the economy to grow. I do think the VAT rise was a mistake and I am willing to bet that the extra 2.5% has produced very little real revenue increase, a bit like what we have seen with the reduction in petrol usage (yes there are other factors in that of course).

I guess a longer term deficit/debt reduction plan would have been my way forward.... right now I think the average Jo is suffering financially on too many levels.

Finally I would imagine and (I can't believe I am about to say this) that no matter what Cameron and his band of merry men get up to that the UK pouplation would never be stupid enough to elect a Labour Party fronted by Ed Milliband!!!

David Lock

A big part of the problem is people are frightened to spend money and much of that is caused by political party squabbling about Gov't strategy with Labour rubbishing just about anything Osborne says. Fair enough but it just may be time for Cameron and Millipede to put party politics on ice until the storm is over. Let them attack health reforms and all the peripheral stuff.

And as said give businesses as much support and encouragement that can be offered. And try to stop the banks screwing us all - it's all very well Cameron saying (or nearly saying) pay off your credit cards but what he should have been saying is we'll stop Barclaycard et al charging interest at 29.9%.

I am more relaxed about public sector numbers being reduced as whilst many services are nice to have they don't do much for income generation. But perhaps slow reduction down a bit by stopping recruitment rather than the axe?

I would personally halve defence spending and carry the risks which would result.

dl

GlesgaKiss

The sheep all think the same thing. They want the govt to do the impossible, which is to improve the fundamentals of the economy while maintaining consumption, i.e. gdp, in the short-term. The fact that sane people are even asking them to do this is a sad reflection of just how bad a state this country is in.

Was speaking to a fireman the other day and he confirmed yet again what we all read in the papers. He said the amount of management they have is unbelievable. They're drowning in management and red tape. Yet he's worried about his job. What's that all about?

The problem is as clear as day. Productivity and the creation of wealth in this country is being stifled by the same rules and regulations that are necessitating these cancerous sections of the public sector in 'management' and paperwork. This is the problem, nothing else, and the only solution is a radical one. How many people now say things like 'it's not practical to do that' or 'it can't be done'. You know what the answer to that is? Just to do it. Start proceedings today to get rid of these people, to get rid of the counterproductive rules and regulations, and if the EU court of mass injustice has a problem with it, tell them to stick their rules up their **** and stew in their own depressing decline. In the meantime, with fewer obstacles to every kind of endeavour, the UK can get back to success and real growth that's sustainable.

But as it stands, this will never happen. We're going to go down with the ship - a massive bureaucracy with only career in mind is running the show. These banking and government officials... they don't have a clue. They've never done a real job, just made their way through university taking the right course and getting the right grades. Then straight in to a cushty public sector role, flying round the world to pat each other on the back for sharing the same opinion - unfortunately for us, not one that is grounded in reality.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Why? They are generally damp aren't they?

dpb

You should only change tack if theres a windshift or your getting someone elses dirty air

HTH

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

You should only try and be funny if you know the difference between you're and your

TelBoy

Sometimes i think the same. Have we isolated ourselves from Europe to an extent that they'd turn a blind eye if we were under military threat? Should we still care about colonies thousands of miles away? Would it come back to bite us on the **** if we reduced to a token army/navy/RAF. Should we waste the money we do in places like Afghanistan? Don't know, never had military ties so don't "get" the whole hero worship of troops etc, but can't help thinking we're pretending to be a world military power when in fact we aren't, and haven't been for some time.

pslewis

Defence is a massive seller for the UK ...... if the UK Gov. doesn't want to buy what we make in this area, then no other Gov. will want to.

We are the best in the world at some things ..... leading edge technology is one such thing.

GlesgaKiss

Sure, why not? Instead of sorting the problems that would enable us to maintain the defence budget, why not just cut it and chuck the savings down the hole. Then maybe in a few years we can cut something else that doesn't seem necessary. Carry on that logic and we'll have pretty poor services. All as a last ditch attempt to fund a welfare state we can't afford.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Pretty much my thoughts too. Can't believe we got involved in Libya. That was a shockingly bad piece of judgement on Cameron's behalf.

TelBoy

Yeah but why should we maintain the defence budget, that's the question. Sure, sort out the finances, but not throw the saved cash at tanks. I have no expert information as to whether sales of military technology rely on the UK's endorsement of it, maybe that's the reason we keep such a high world profile these days. Just seems like a waste of money to me, especially when we're sorting out other people's wars for the most part.

JTaylor

The question is: Should we relinquish our UNSC permanency? If yes, then sure, we stop having to have the fourth largest defence budget on the planet. If no, we're obligated. All other questions are secondary to this.

GlesgaKiss

So that we can stay safe. Maybe it doesn't need maintained, but I think it would be naive to think we no longer need it. The only reason we don't is because others do the defence spending for us. For a while now that has been the US. I agree about foreign wars, but again, who secures trade? It is the US. Now China are looking to secure trade for themselves. Let's hope that's all they do. I'm not part of the tin foil hat brigade, but we need to know what they're up to, and that we (together with other countries) can stop them and others, if necessary, from doing something that harms our interests here and possibly around the globe. So that means spending on intelligence, deterrents, and everything else that the govt can do to make sure we're prepared.

Defence spending always seems like a waste of money in times of peace. It would be nice to believe things will stay civilised between the nations for a long time, and it's pretty unthinkable (considering the technology at their disposal) that something could happen now, but it's still best to have an advantage of some kind, rather than being left helpless and just hoping for perpetual peace.

TelBoy

Good point, JT. I'm struggling to find anywhere that states whether there's a minimum % of GDP spend for a permanent member though. Do you know whether one exists?

TelBoy

No i do get you, but i think defence spending needs to be a bit more fluid. We've spent loads on Trident for example, at a time when the chance of its deployment is surely at very low levels. Does anyone care enough about the UK these days for us to need such effective defence? The only way i see us being a target is from sticking our nose in where it isn't wanted or too-publicly supporting the yanks across the pond.

GlesgaKiss

I agree, we might not be a target. But the 'sticking our nose in' part is an interesting point. What I was thinking is that we perhaps should stick our nose in if something threatens western values. Otherwise, yes, I'm sure we could, relatively painlessly, avoid conflict. But at what cost? Should we, in that case, just go with the flow (a new power) and let the world be changed into something undesirable to us and possibly quite oppressive by our standards? It would mean lives were spared, but, for some people, how you live that life matters too.

Oops... going slightly off topic.

Leslie

You have to remember and be honest enough to accept the gross damage that was done to this country by New Labour led by the lying hound whom you worship aided by the even bigger liar he employed and backed by the gutless quorum in his cabinet and the useless MP's in his party for their own advantage.

Apart from pissing our money against the wall without a thought for the enormous national debt they were building up with their borrowing and spend policies and lack of any discernible real action for the good of the people, they stuck to employing vast numbers of people in the public sector to artificially lower the un employment figures thus creating an enormous beaurocracy at mindbending expense and buying votes as hard as they could go.

Far from cutting out the useless Quango's or "jobs for the boys" they increased them and used the PFI to create enormous extra and inefficient further debt for our grandchildren.

They failed to regulate the bankers shameful and greedy actions because they were aiming to keep their support and thus had a big responsibility for the eventual recession which followed in due course. There is no way that they can blame the rest of the world for our problems which they were guilty of creating themselves.

A good government would have used the strong economy that was bequeathed to them by the party they took over from to build up our own manufacturing industry and thus enabled the country to earn its own way in the world with nil or a very small deficit and by now we would have been in a very strong position. Instead of that they just threw it all away for their own nefarious purposes.

As always seems to be the historical case, the present goverment has inherited a bag of rubbish as far as the economy is concerned and is poorly placed to turn it all around. There just isn't the money available to keep paying out without borrowing even more and increasing the deficit.

A country is only as rich as the money which is earned by the productive work that is done by its people. The death of our manufacturing industries due to previous actions is a killer in that respect.

It is obviously a very difficult situation to put right and the risk of course is eventual bankruptcy. Could happen to any country!

I think that very strong action is necessary in the extreme. All the grossly expensive actions by the previous bunch of clowns must be reversed. widespread immigration must cease, and the edicts from the corrupt fellows over the water must be ignored.

To do that we need a strong leader. Can anyone see one of those on the horizon?

Unless our present government wakes up and stops poncing around meekly accepting what they are ordered to do by those who would take total control of our country if they ever get the chance, I see nothing to look forward to in the future.

Les

JTaylor

There isn't one but the member has to be able to fulfill its role and execute resolutions. NATO's is 2%.

TelBoy

So a bit wishy-washy then and not a definite preclusion from cutting the defence budget. I guess there's a level at which the other four members would "have a word" but i think defence is one area where we bat way above our average, for no immediately obvious advantage.

David Lock

In my rather gloomy view in 20 - 40 years China will have more or less taken over. They are already moving in on Africa and S America and may move more into Europe which will probably economically implode sooner rather than later. All the nukes that we could chuck at China wouldn't make any significant difference because the place is so big and anyway the Gov't there would probably accept the loss of a few million of its citizens. I suspect Israel and the US will keep the Middle East (Iran) off our backs but we had better try and be nice to Pakistan for as long as we can.

Of course the bonus of NOT being a major player on the world stage is that it would make us less of a terrorist target for some crazed group to wipe out London with a dirty bomb.

And we would all feel happier if our soldiers were not being torn to bits in a war that they haven't a snowball's chance of winning (Afghanistan).

dl