How the British used to fight Arab terror!!
23 April 2002, 02:18 PM
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GUEST COLUMN: How the British fought terror in Jenin
By Rafael Medoff
(April 18) 'Demolishing the homes of Arab civilians... Shooting handcuffed prisoners... Forcing local Arabs to test areas where mines may have been planted..."
These sound like the sort of accusations made by British and other European officials concerning Israel's recent actions in Jenin. In fact, they are descriptions from official British documents concerning the methods used by the British authorities to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in Jenin and elsewhere in 1938.
The documents were declassified by London in 1989. They provide details of the British Mandatory government's response to the assassination of a British district commissioner by a Palestinian Arab terrorist in Jenin in the summer of 1938.
Even after the suspected assassin was captured (and then shot dead while allegedly trying to escape), the British authorities decided that "a large portion of the town should be blown up" as punishment. On August 25 of that year, a British convoy brought 4,200 kilos of explosives to Jenin for that purpose.
In the Jenin operation and on other occasions, local Arabs were forced to drive "mine-sweeping taxis" ahead of British vehicles in areas where Palestinian Arab terrorists were believed to have planted mines, in order "to reduce [British] landmine casualties."
The British authorities frequently used these and similar methods to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in the late 1930s.
BRITISH forces responded to the presence of terrorists in the Arab village of Miar, north of Haifa, by blowing up house after house in October 1938.
"When the troops left, there was little else remaining of the once-busy village except a pile of mangled masonry," The New York Times reported.
The declassified documents refer to an incident in Jaffa in which a handcuffed prisoner was shot by the British police.
Under Emergency Regulation 19b, the British Mandate government could demolish any house located in a village where terrorists resided, even if that particular house had no direct connection to terrorist activity. Mandate official Hugh Foot later recalled: "When we thought that a village was harboring rebels, we'd go there and mark one of the large houses. Then, if an incident was traced to that village, we'd blow up the house we'd marked."
The High Commissioner for Palestine, Harold MacMichael, defended the practice: "The provision is drastic, but the situation has demanded drastic powers."
MacMichael was furious over what he called the "grossly exaggerated accusations" that England's critics were circulating concerning British anti-terror tactics in Palestine. Arab allegations that British soldiers gouged out the eyes of Arab prisoners were quoted prominently in the **** German press and elsewhere.
The declassified documents also record discussions among officials of the Colonial Office concerning the rightness or wrongness of the anti-terror methods used in Palestine. Lord Dufferin remarked: "British lives are being lost and I don't think that we, from the security of Whitehall, can protest squeamishly about measures taken by the men in the frontline."
Sir John Shuckburgh defended the tactics on the grounds that the British were confronted "not with a chivalrous opponent playing the game according to the rules, but with gangsters and murderers."
There were many differences between British policy in the 1930s and Israeli policy today, but one stands out - the British, faced with a level of Palestinian Arab terrorism considerably less lethal than that which Israel faces today, utilized anti-terror methods considerably harsher than those used by Israeli forces.
The writer is visiting scholar in the Jewish Studies Program at SUNY-Purchase. His most recent book is Baksheesh Diplomacy: Secret Negotiations Between American Jewish Leaders and Arab Officials on the Eve of World War II
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/0...mns.47190.html
By Rafael Medoff
(April 18) 'Demolishing the homes of Arab civilians... Shooting handcuffed prisoners... Forcing local Arabs to test areas where mines may have been planted..."
These sound like the sort of accusations made by British and other European officials concerning Israel's recent actions in Jenin. In fact, they are descriptions from official British documents concerning the methods used by the British authorities to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in Jenin and elsewhere in 1938.
The documents were declassified by London in 1989. They provide details of the British Mandatory government's response to the assassination of a British district commissioner by a Palestinian Arab terrorist in Jenin in the summer of 1938.
Even after the suspected assassin was captured (and then shot dead while allegedly trying to escape), the British authorities decided that "a large portion of the town should be blown up" as punishment. On August 25 of that year, a British convoy brought 4,200 kilos of explosives to Jenin for that purpose.
In the Jenin operation and on other occasions, local Arabs were forced to drive "mine-sweeping taxis" ahead of British vehicles in areas where Palestinian Arab terrorists were believed to have planted mines, in order "to reduce [British] landmine casualties."
The British authorities frequently used these and similar methods to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in the late 1930s.
BRITISH forces responded to the presence of terrorists in the Arab village of Miar, north of Haifa, by blowing up house after house in October 1938.
"When the troops left, there was little else remaining of the once-busy village except a pile of mangled masonry," The New York Times reported.
The declassified documents refer to an incident in Jaffa in which a handcuffed prisoner was shot by the British police.
Under Emergency Regulation 19b, the British Mandate government could demolish any house located in a village where terrorists resided, even if that particular house had no direct connection to terrorist activity. Mandate official Hugh Foot later recalled: "When we thought that a village was harboring rebels, we'd go there and mark one of the large houses. Then, if an incident was traced to that village, we'd blow up the house we'd marked."
The High Commissioner for Palestine, Harold MacMichael, defended the practice: "The provision is drastic, but the situation has demanded drastic powers."
MacMichael was furious over what he called the "grossly exaggerated accusations" that England's critics were circulating concerning British anti-terror tactics in Palestine. Arab allegations that British soldiers gouged out the eyes of Arab prisoners were quoted prominently in the **** German press and elsewhere.
The declassified documents also record discussions among officials of the Colonial Office concerning the rightness or wrongness of the anti-terror methods used in Palestine. Lord Dufferin remarked: "British lives are being lost and I don't think that we, from the security of Whitehall, can protest squeamishly about measures taken by the men in the frontline."
Sir John Shuckburgh defended the tactics on the grounds that the British were confronted "not with a chivalrous opponent playing the game according to the rules, but with gangsters and murderers."
There were many differences between British policy in the 1930s and Israeli policy today, but one stands out - the British, faced with a level of Palestinian Arab terrorism considerably less lethal than that which Israel faces today, utilized anti-terror methods considerably harsher than those used by Israeli forces.
The writer is visiting scholar in the Jewish Studies Program at SUNY-Purchase. His most recent book is Baksheesh Diplomacy: Secret Negotiations Between American Jewish Leaders and Arab Officials on the Eve of World War II
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/0...mns.47190.html
23 April 2002, 02:38 PM
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My country isn't doing anything wrong, and there is a U.N commitee now on the way with the blessing of our goverment.
We have nothing to hide, we could have bombed the place so it would be eliminated but guess what...we sent in troops and even lost few soldiers.
This was only to show how hypocrat some countries can be.
that also includes France (what happened in Alegeria) and Germany (WW2)...
I wonder why the British never thought about killing Jews living in Palestine...
We have nothing to hide, we could have bombed the place so it would be eliminated but guess what...we sent in troops and even lost few soldiers.
This was only to show how hypocrat some countries can be.
that also includes France (what happened in Alegeria) and Germany (WW2)...
I wonder why the British never thought about killing Jews living in Palestine...
23 April 2002, 02:43 PM
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OK so attitudes of 60-70 years ago are still the attitudes of the British today? I would say if that is your only come back against a society who doesn't agree with the Israeli actions against Palestinians then you must be walking on very thin ground. Does that mean Germany hasn't moved on from being **** run??? I think you are clutching at straws m8 and need to realise the country's u mention do not follow the same policies now of over 50 years ago! Society has learnt from its mistakes and is still learning, something which Israel needs to do instead of pursuing the same path breeding more and more violence!
23 April 2002, 02:51 PM
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And thats why you see the uprising of the extreme right in Austria and France.
There is a reason why the British acted this way with the Arabs but not with the Jews.
I don't say its the right way and I'm not accusing the Brits of anything I just show you how hard it is to deal with the Arabs!!
I'm amazed how you can still seperate the terror acts conducted by Arabs all over the world and the ones held against Israel. it easy cause we are Jews??
Muslims prove to be militant all over, with or without connection to Israel..Philipines, Iraq, Iran...
Its funny how we where accused of slaughtering innocent people, and now when jouranalists can come in but don't find any evidence of such a thing...
There is a reason why the British acted this way with the Arabs but not with the Jews.
I don't say its the right way and I'm not accusing the Brits of anything I just show you how hard it is to deal with the Arabs!!
I'm amazed how you can still seperate the terror acts conducted by Arabs all over the world and the ones held against Israel. it easy cause we are Jews??
Muslims prove to be militant all over, with or without connection to Israel..Philipines, Iraq, Iran...
Its funny how we where accused of slaughtering innocent people, and now when jouranalists can come in but don't find any evidence of such a thing...
23 April 2002, 02:57 PM
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So the ne'er do wells living there have loads of previous? and have been punished for it before.
If you can dig out some parchments (or watch "The Life of Brian") You can get back at least as far as the Romans hacking up the "troublemakers" in Palestine.
I don't doubt that Alexander The Great, the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians and probably Adam himself were subject to the same "multi cultural" behaviour.
Is this latest round of "working over" the locals going to make an iota of difference you think?
Like certain sections of the IRA and ETA, Al Aieee or whatever they're called this month will never let it drop no matter what you do. They should be trying to win over most of the population not battering them and making them even more resentful and homeless.
More pointedly from my country's (The UK) point of view, I want to know why we harbour punters who preach hatred and death against the West and all it stands for and allow them succour (not to mention state benefits) I and my fellow Western scum are paying for.
Pitch 'em out and let 'em go preach in the desert like their founder.
If you can dig out some parchments (or watch "The Life of Brian") You can get back at least as far as the Romans hacking up the "troublemakers" in Palestine.
I don't doubt that Alexander The Great, the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians and probably Adam himself were subject to the same "multi cultural" behaviour.
Is this latest round of "working over" the locals going to make an iota of difference you think?
Like certain sections of the IRA and ETA, Al Aieee or whatever they're called this month will never let it drop no matter what you do. They should be trying to win over most of the population not battering them and making them even more resentful and homeless.
More pointedly from my country's (The UK) point of view, I want to know why we harbour punters who preach hatred and death against the West and all it stands for and allow them succour (not to mention state benefits) I and my fellow Western scum are paying for.
Pitch 'em out and let 'em go preach in the desert like their founder.
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23 April 2002, 03:07 PM
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I am sceptical about the News reported over here anyway.
I am trying to reserve judgement and just be a little open minded.
My girlfriends Aunt lives in Israel. They are Muslim.
Some of my friends are Palistinian Christians.
I hear different arguments from each.
I do not doubt that UK soldiers have used unorthodox methods in the past. Perhaps they still do. War is not exactly a pleasant thing. By any means neccessary, and all that.
I agree that Muslims tend to be extremist. The fact that they refuse to recognise other peoples beliefs and see them as evil doesn't make them many friends.
That said, lives are lives and war is never a good answer.
My 6 pence worth, (up two pence due to current market situation).
I am trying to reserve judgement and just be a little open minded.
My girlfriends Aunt lives in Israel. They are Muslim.
Some of my friends are Palistinian Christians.
I hear different arguments from each.
I do not doubt that UK soldiers have used unorthodox methods in the past. Perhaps they still do. War is not exactly a pleasant thing. By any means neccessary, and all that.
I agree that Muslims tend to be extremist. The fact that they refuse to recognise other peoples beliefs and see them as evil doesn't make them many friends.
That said, lives are lives and war is never a good answer.
My 6 pence worth, (up two pence due to current market situation).
23 April 2002, 03:08 PM
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First I'm not saying we're doing the same we're not!!
second who's telling you it isn't working, we have less suicide attacks now than in any given time the last year.
second who's telling you it isn't working, we have less suicide attacks now than in any given time the last year.
23 April 2002, 03:59 PM
#10
I read this board for pleasure and information on performance cars. So till now I've avoided responding to the partisan subjective propaganda you continue to use to justify the barbaric action that purports to be undertaken in name of the Jews.
As has already been stated Britain has moved forward and holds a more enlightened view on these matters. It may have escaped your attention that we no longer burn witches at the stake, use slave labour in the colonies or for that matter place pregnant unmarried women in asylums. A more realistic example would be drawn from the policies implemented to combat terrorism in Northern Ireland
I note you chose not to draw a comparison with the **** methodology. As I recall they would deploy firing squads or even wipe out whole villages to avenge terrorist attacks. The perpetrators were of course "freedom fighters" such as the French Resistance who are now hailed as heroes. Their actions were justified because it was a struggle against an occupying army.........
Oh, that may be how I manage to make a distinction!
As has already been stated Britain has moved forward and holds a more enlightened view on these matters. It may have escaped your attention that we no longer burn witches at the stake, use slave labour in the colonies or for that matter place pregnant unmarried women in asylums. A more realistic example would be drawn from the policies implemented to combat terrorism in Northern Ireland
I note you chose not to draw a comparison with the **** methodology. As I recall they would deploy firing squads or even wipe out whole villages to avenge terrorist attacks. The perpetrators were of course "freedom fighters" such as the French Resistance who are now hailed as heroes. Their actions were justified because it was a struggle against an occupying army.........
Oh, that may be how I manage to make a distinction!
23 April 2002, 04:27 PM
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I hate getting involved in such discussions, but as a jewish person living in the UK a lot of the propoganda I see reported to the british press is wholly anti israel and utterly biased.
I think the israelis went too far by not allowing in red cross and red crescent workers in and out of jenin, but needless to say I am sure they have their reasons. For example the bomber who got through to the blow up the innocent jewish holiday makers at a passover festival ceremony did so, by mascarading as a palistinian ambulance paramedic to get past security. This was condoned and praised by the palestinian leader.
What israel has done is identical to America going in to afghanistan to fight terrorism, except that in this case the danger is on israel's doorstep. They went after the known terrorists and have the seized weapons to prove it, unfortunately innocent civilians were caught up in the fighting, but if the enemy uses its own people as human shields what are you supposed to do?
Yet the palestinians started suggesting there was an israeli massacre of innocent civilians inviting the un to investigate, and what have they found? nothing!
people dont realise the extent to which this hatred is based. Mr arafat wrote a book some time back highlighting his plan from beginning to end to take israel down from the inside, because it refuses to accept the existance of the state of israel, or any other potential jewish state. The palestinain state funs the suicide bombers by giving money to the familes of the "martyrs". This is public knowledge. The children are taught in schools in to hate the israelis and to fight to death for "peace" without the jews.
I wonder why no one questions when a child is killed in fighting why there are five year old kids throwing petrol bombs are soldiers with guns. why arent their parents pulling them back to keep them safe? why arent israeli children taught how to make and throw petrol bombs?
you simply cant make peace with the people who are proud when one of their children blows himself up and takes 100 innocent civilians with him or her. I could almost accept that opinion if it was a military attack on a strategic target, but women and children in supermarkets? how can you be proud of that?
You should read the article by richard littlejohnin last fridays Sun, he put it best when he said they should be called homicide bombers, not suicide bombers.
Israel is not a barbaric state, they are armed with some of the best intelligence in the world, intelligence that tells them of the danger that arafat poses. This is because the face he shows the world and the face he shows the arab press are not the same, and if you could read the arab press you would see this as I have.
Israel believes that there are palestinians who do want peace, but if they oppose arafat they may be killed. That is why the only thing they can see to do, is to remove arafat as the leader of and figure head of the terrorism and allow people who do want peace to take charge of their people.
I hate it when people see things from the outside. It is unknown to most people who dont have routes involved, that there are 1 billion muslims in the world, 1,000,000,000 with countless states to live in. There are 12 million jews with one homeland smaller than wales and despite this, since england granted independence to the state of israel they have been forced to fight to avoid anhilation ever since.
[Edited by Adam M - 4/23/2002 4:29:39 PM]
I think the israelis went too far by not allowing in red cross and red crescent workers in and out of jenin, but needless to say I am sure they have their reasons. For example the bomber who got through to the blow up the innocent jewish holiday makers at a passover festival ceremony did so, by mascarading as a palistinian ambulance paramedic to get past security. This was condoned and praised by the palestinian leader.
What israel has done is identical to America going in to afghanistan to fight terrorism, except that in this case the danger is on israel's doorstep. They went after the known terrorists and have the seized weapons to prove it, unfortunately innocent civilians were caught up in the fighting, but if the enemy uses its own people as human shields what are you supposed to do?
Yet the palestinians started suggesting there was an israeli massacre of innocent civilians inviting the un to investigate, and what have they found? nothing!
people dont realise the extent to which this hatred is based. Mr arafat wrote a book some time back highlighting his plan from beginning to end to take israel down from the inside, because it refuses to accept the existance of the state of israel, or any other potential jewish state. The palestinain state funs the suicide bombers by giving money to the familes of the "martyrs". This is public knowledge. The children are taught in schools in to hate the israelis and to fight to death for "peace" without the jews.
I wonder why no one questions when a child is killed in fighting why there are five year old kids throwing petrol bombs are soldiers with guns. why arent their parents pulling them back to keep them safe? why arent israeli children taught how to make and throw petrol bombs?
you simply cant make peace with the people who are proud when one of their children blows himself up and takes 100 innocent civilians with him or her. I could almost accept that opinion if it was a military attack on a strategic target, but women and children in supermarkets? how can you be proud of that?
You should read the article by richard littlejohnin last fridays Sun, he put it best when he said they should be called homicide bombers, not suicide bombers.
Israel is not a barbaric state, they are armed with some of the best intelligence in the world, intelligence that tells them of the danger that arafat poses. This is because the face he shows the world and the face he shows the arab press are not the same, and if you could read the arab press you would see this as I have.
Israel believes that there are palestinians who do want peace, but if they oppose arafat they may be killed. That is why the only thing they can see to do, is to remove arafat as the leader of and figure head of the terrorism and allow people who do want peace to take charge of their people.
I hate it when people see things from the outside. It is unknown to most people who dont have routes involved, that there are 1 billion muslims in the world, 1,000,000,000 with countless states to live in. There are 12 million jews with one homeland smaller than wales and despite this, since england granted independence to the state of israel they have been forced to fight to avoid anhilation ever since.
[Edited by Adam M - 4/23/2002 4:29:39 PM]
23 April 2002, 04:33 PM
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and btw perhaps you should all read to official statement of the saudi ambassador to the UK regarding his praising for the Septemeber 11th bombers.
I want to know why this man hasnt been expellled from the UK.
I also want to know how in learning from past mistakes, a French National front candidate can seriously challenge the french presidency.
Even if the other politicians crush him, the fact is, he was voted for! please will someone explain how that can be the case not even 60 years after the end of the second world war!
I want to know why this man hasnt been expellled from the UK.
I also want to know how in learning from past mistakes, a French National front candidate can seriously challenge the french presidency.
Even if the other politicians crush him, the fact is, he was voted for! please will someone explain how that can be the case not even 60 years after the end of the second world war!
23 April 2002, 04:48 PM
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I read this board for pleasure and information on performance cars. So till now I've avoided responding to the partisan subjective propaganda you continue to use to justify the barbaric action that purports to be undertaken in name of the Jews.
As has already been stated Britain has moved forward and holds a more enlightened view on these matters. It may have escaped your attention that we no longer burn witches at the stake, use slave labour in the colonies or for that matter place pregnant unmarried women in asylums. A more realistic example would be drawn from the policies implemented to combat terrorism in Northern Ireland
and I remember the pictures from N. Irland when your troops went in armed and all and sometimes kill innocent people by mistake (yes I know it was by mistake, unlike you who enjoy blaming Israel for everything).
I note you chose not to draw a comparison with the **** methodology. As I recall they would deploy firing squads or even wipe out whole villages to avenge terrorist attacks. The perpetrators were of course "freedom fighters" such as the French Resistance who are now hailed as heroes. Their actions were justified because it was a struggle against an occupying army.........
and who exactly did we occupie the land from??? because looking at history there was no Palestinian state... it was Jordan and Egypt, and did we return the Sinai to Egypt YES!
did they want Gaza NO!!
and did the French resistance used suicide bombings in Berlin...NO!!
I wish you, that all the muslims in your country start rioting, bombing your churches... we'll see how you enlightened Brits will deal with that (on a second thought I don't wish it to anybody).
Oh and its gonna be in the near future, as I recall Al qaida (the same ones Arafat was found linked to...) already planned on hitting the U.K!!
wouldn't you just love to look at the Palestinians dance on the rooftops again (just like they did on Sep 11)
[Edited by elondan - 4/23/2002 4:57:50 PM]
23 April 2002, 04:59 PM
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As I recall when the IRA bombed your cities he gave you a head notice unlike the Arabs who just blow up...
I wish you all the muslims in your country start rioting, bombing your churches... we'll see how you enlightened Brits will deal with that.
23 April 2002, 05:08 PM
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Oh, that makes it OK then
IIRC the people living in London 'dealt with' worse than that every night in 1941 when we were trying (and failing, at the time) to defend the world against the oppressors of the Jews
don't get me worng I really like England, I'm part English myself and support the England in soccer games.
but its frustrating to see how many of you side with the Palestinians,
when Israel is the only democracy here, all we are trying to do is defend ourselves from terror, and the only country to offer the Palestinians a state, unlike Jordan and Egypt who ruled the land before us.
but everybody are condeming Israel.
23 April 2002, 05:11 PM
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and I thank you.
Unfortunately the whole Middle East is a mess and, it appears, always will be (and, to be honest, the West wouldn't give a monkey's if it weren't for the oil).
23 April 2002, 05:45 PM
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Calm Down
the British are a brutish and Blood thirsty people with a long tradition of war - and probably one of the most distinguished in the field of human conflict - at some time or another we have fought everyone everywhere
france germany turkey china korea america india nepal burma ireland russia italy japan iraq argentina SCOTLAND WALES - etc etc etc
You name we've fought 'em
we have also seized land, committed massacres (amristar anyone?) invented concentration camps we've done the lot.
BUT
Attitudes change - it was the UK governent Declaration that paved the way for the State of Isreal - so it's a bit rich accussing us of anti semitism
Get over it - I think you are trying to solve the terrorist problem through the wrong method - yes it hurts when they commit acts of terror against you.
no doubt they think building houses within palestinian land is equally hurtful.
Compromise and negotiate - is no the order of the day - you will not prevail over such hatred - you will have to kill virtually all of the palestinians - and then you will become the very thing you despise.
the British are a brutish and Blood thirsty people with a long tradition of war - and probably one of the most distinguished in the field of human conflict - at some time or another we have fought everyone everywhere
france germany turkey china korea america india nepal burma ireland russia italy japan iraq argentina SCOTLAND WALES - etc etc etc
You name we've fought 'em
we have also seized land, committed massacres (amristar anyone?) invented concentration camps we've done the lot.
BUT
Attitudes change - it was the UK governent Declaration that paved the way for the State of Isreal - so it's a bit rich accussing us of anti semitism
Get over it - I think you are trying to solve the terrorist problem through the wrong method - yes it hurts when they commit acts of terror against you.
no doubt they think building houses within palestinian land is equally hurtful.
Compromise and negotiate - is no the order of the day - you will not prevail over such hatred - you will have to kill virtually all of the palestinians - and then you will become the very thing you despise.
23 April 2002, 06:22 PM
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so it's a bit rich accussing us of anti semitism
no doubt they think building houses within palestinian land is equally hurtful.
In 1994 we also signed peace with Jordan who didn't want the land in return, and so it was offered to the Palestinians who refused Clinton's offer to get back 97% of the land (that they never had) and continue negotiations, they turned to terror...
so what exactly should Israel do?
What do you think England will do if the Irish start bombing London and ask N. Irland back or if Argentina attack the Folkland again (it does seem preety far from England...
Or what do you think the U.S will do if the native americans (indians) tell them to go back to Europe or they'll bomb D.C...
its easy to pick on Israel.
23 April 2002, 06:33 PM
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elondan
Yep - that about sums up the difference in mind set - I presented a balanced viewpoint - pointed out that the british aren't spotless as a country (to answer your original post)
And stated that in my opinion destroying refugee camps was not goingto endear you to the international community.
You answer none of my points - a basically launched a diatribe of irrelevant HISTORY about the country
if the British took your view point with NI we would never have moved forward. Hyde Park, Brighton, Docklands, Omagh, Crossmaglen need I go on. We achieved peace through dialogue and concessions - after all we freed from jailed every IRA terrorist (jst about) we ever caught.
Live in the present - Pull out of west bank and Gaza - offer autonomy - offer day/night passes into isreal for upstanding citizens so they can work in Isreal
and treat them like Humans - in turn you too will be treated like Humans.
Israel has lost the moral ground over Jenin - do something extraordinary, offer more than you are really willing to concede.
Yep - that about sums up the difference in mind set - I presented a balanced viewpoint - pointed out that the british aren't spotless as a country (to answer your original post)
And stated that in my opinion destroying refugee camps was not goingto endear you to the international community.
You answer none of my points - a basically launched a diatribe of irrelevant HISTORY about the country
if the British took your view point with NI we would never have moved forward. Hyde Park, Brighton, Docklands, Omagh, Crossmaglen need I go on. We achieved peace through dialogue and concessions - after all we freed from jailed every IRA terrorist (jst about) we ever caught.
Live in the present - Pull out of west bank and Gaza - offer autonomy - offer day/night passes into isreal for upstanding citizens so they can work in Isreal
and treat them like Humans - in turn you too will be treated like Humans.
Israel has lost the moral ground over Jenin - do something extraordinary, offer more than you are really willing to concede.
23 April 2002, 06:55 PM
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Unfortunately, pulling out of the West Bank and Gaza will probably just give Arafat & Hamas a foothold from where to launch a sustained attack on Israel, probably with the full complicity and support of the palestinian sympathisers in the western press.
23 April 2002, 07:17 PM
#25
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This issue is unlikely to be solved, there is just too much history(dating back to Moses's time). In order for there to be peace, both sides must want it enough to put past atrocities behind them.
I.e Until the populuation feels that enough is enough and does something about it, then nothing will change
Unlike N.Ireland I don't get this impression from the people on both sides here.
Israel has always had to struggle for it's survival and it's a naive person that thinks that most of the Arab Nations would'nt want it out of the way in an instant if they could manage it. This struggle for survival has bred in the Israeli nation a "you hit us hard, we hit you back twice as hard" mentality.
Therefore there is an inherent hard line attitude from both sides. One believing that Israel stole the land they were on, the other that they have a perfect right to be there.
I was as horrifed as anyone about Jenin, and it did'nt do Isreal any good at all to see those images blasted around the world. In all honesty it's an issue between Isreal and Palestine. Everyone else should keep their noses out, offer medical/humanitarian aid to all parties sure. But to try and dictate our set of values and opinion of history on a conflict thousands of years old, is IMHO wrong.
[Edited by Neil Smalley - 4/23/2002 7:18:15 PM]
I.e Until the populuation feels that enough is enough and does something about it, then nothing will change
Unlike N.Ireland I don't get this impression from the people on both sides here.
Israel has always had to struggle for it's survival and it's a naive person that thinks that most of the Arab Nations would'nt want it out of the way in an instant if they could manage it. This struggle for survival has bred in the Israeli nation a "you hit us hard, we hit you back twice as hard" mentality.
Therefore there is an inherent hard line attitude from both sides. One believing that Israel stole the land they were on, the other that they have a perfect right to be there.
I was as horrifed as anyone about Jenin, and it did'nt do Isreal any good at all to see those images blasted around the world. In all honesty it's an issue between Isreal and Palestine. Everyone else should keep their noses out, offer medical/humanitarian aid to all parties sure. But to try and dictate our set of values and opinion of history on a conflict thousands of years old, is IMHO wrong.
[Edited by Neil Smalley - 4/23/2002 7:18:15 PM]
23 April 2002, 07:38 PM
#26
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It really gets my goat that the so called civilised world are doing nothing but attack Israel (a democratic society), for defending itself against the PLO and Hamas (terrorist organisations), whilst at the same time the George & Tony roadshow is gearing up for another bash at Iraq in an attempt to cover over the fact that their own countries are falling going downhill rapidly! And don't even get me started on our Foreign Office's collective handwashing over Zimbabwe!
23 April 2002, 07:40 PM
#27
Elodan
I was not aware I was winging, but your advice is very sound and I will revert to my previous practice, which was to read in the hope of gaining some insight and understanding.
Before doing so I will assist recollection your of IRA bombings and add my final comments. Bomb warnings were not always given, often they were vague and sometimes deliberately confusing. The loss of life in Birmingham Pub bombs is testimony to that.
No one was evacuated from the cellar bar that I'd been drinking in 30min before the explosion. People in there were in their twenties with no political or religious affinity. A close friend was called to the scene is still reluctant to speak of it. The location was carefully chosen there was nowhere for the explosion to dissipate, bodies were pierced by chairs/table legs and other debris and he says a perfect slither from the sole of someone's foot was found by a colleague.
At that time I would have supported any type of retaliation! Some people were so outraged that Irish pubs were fire bombed and some pubs and stores refused to serve people with an Irish accent. After all these years it remains an emotional topic for me, but I now recognise that retribution wrought upon an innocent population achieves nothing. The wholesale destruction of towns their infrastructure and population will only breed further martyr's to the cause. Lebanon was occupied and it's economy destroyed, did this prevent further conflict?
You have outlined Israel's generosity in returning land BACK to the Palestinians, 97%. I cannot understand why an additional 3% should be such a great sacrifice for peaceful coexistence. And if this is a genuine wish why encourage expansion of settlements on occupied land, action which has brought condemnation from the international community? Surely this provides an emotive platform for recruitment of terrorists.
Thanks to Neil/Adam et al. for some pertinent contributions.
I was not aware I was winging, but your advice is very sound and I will revert to my previous practice, which was to read in the hope of gaining some insight and understanding.
Before doing so I will assist recollection your of IRA bombings and add my final comments. Bomb warnings were not always given, often they were vague and sometimes deliberately confusing. The loss of life in Birmingham Pub bombs is testimony to that.
No one was evacuated from the cellar bar that I'd been drinking in 30min before the explosion. People in there were in their twenties with no political or religious affinity. A close friend was called to the scene is still reluctant to speak of it. The location was carefully chosen there was nowhere for the explosion to dissipate, bodies were pierced by chairs/table legs and other debris and he says a perfect slither from the sole of someone's foot was found by a colleague.
At that time I would have supported any type of retaliation! Some people were so outraged that Irish pubs were fire bombed and some pubs and stores refused to serve people with an Irish accent. After all these years it remains an emotional topic for me, but I now recognise that retribution wrought upon an innocent population achieves nothing. The wholesale destruction of towns their infrastructure and population will only breed further martyr's to the cause. Lebanon was occupied and it's economy destroyed, did this prevent further conflict?
You have outlined Israel's generosity in returning land BACK to the Palestinians, 97%. I cannot understand why an additional 3% should be such a great sacrifice for peaceful coexistence. And if this is a genuine wish why encourage expansion of settlements on occupied land, action which has brought condemnation from the international community? Surely this provides an emotive platform for recruitment of terrorists.
Thanks to Neil/Adam et al. for some pertinent contributions.
24 April 2002, 10:45 AM
#28
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Irrelevant history?
Oooh, bloody Romans.
And hey we haven't fought everyone. We've never had a do at Portugal, nor I think most of South America.
But that's irrelevant.
As was pointed out originally, the attempts to put down barbaric "terrorist" attacks have NEVER worked.
The Romans, and the Ottoman Turks sussed that you can conquer as much land as you like, but will only get peace if you give the occupants of the "Empire" (or whatever you want to call it) a stake in that society and economy. Then they will defend that which they previously attacked, because they are part of it. Exclduing their poor treatment of the "red" indians, the USA sussed this too. People with money and food in their bellies tend not to riot.
You will of course always have the pains in the **** who are never satisfied, but you will only have to police a very small number of them.
Who is the loon banging on about Iraq and "their countries going downhill"? Eh? Over my head tht one mate.
On the Le Pen thing. You are right people voted for him.
People who are sick to death of being told their (albeit perceived rather than real) problems are not worthy of dealing with because there are more important issues and they are all just racist homophobes.
They're not, but the political rulers (and it's true here in the UK too) treat them with arrogant contempt, like they don't know what they are talking about.
The issues must be addressed, even if they are proven to be non issues. Crime and squalor has always been present in civilised society, but in countries with a social benefit system it is increasingly viewed as being imported, with immigrants bringing more of it with them.
This cannot be ignored or patronised. But the major parties are terrified of being un-PC and branded racist or homophobic or whatever so they won't even allow the issues to be discussed.
That is why, even though they don't agree with 90% of what the BNP purvey, people are being driven into their arms by the lack of action by other politicians.
Cue the Weimar republic and Hitler.
Inactivity by good men allows evil to prosper.
Oooh, bloody Romans.
And hey we haven't fought everyone. We've never had a do at Portugal, nor I think most of South America.
But that's irrelevant.
As was pointed out originally, the attempts to put down barbaric "terrorist" attacks have NEVER worked.
The Romans, and the Ottoman Turks sussed that you can conquer as much land as you like, but will only get peace if you give the occupants of the "Empire" (or whatever you want to call it) a stake in that society and economy. Then they will defend that which they previously attacked, because they are part of it. Exclduing their poor treatment of the "red" indians, the USA sussed this too. People with money and food in their bellies tend not to riot.
You will of course always have the pains in the **** who are never satisfied, but you will only have to police a very small number of them.
Who is the loon banging on about Iraq and "their countries going downhill"? Eh? Over my head tht one mate.
On the Le Pen thing. You are right people voted for him.
People who are sick to death of being told their (albeit perceived rather than real) problems are not worthy of dealing with because there are more important issues and they are all just racist homophobes.
They're not, but the political rulers (and it's true here in the UK too) treat them with arrogant contempt, like they don't know what they are talking about.
The issues must be addressed, even if they are proven to be non issues. Crime and squalor has always been present in civilised society, but in countries with a social benefit system it is increasingly viewed as being imported, with immigrants bringing more of it with them.
This cannot be ignored or patronised. But the major parties are terrified of being un-PC and branded racist or homophobic or whatever so they won't even allow the issues to be discussed.
That is why, even though they don't agree with 90% of what the BNP purvey, people are being driven into their arms by the lack of action by other politicians.
Cue the Weimar republic and Hitler.
Inactivity by good men allows evil to prosper.
24 April 2002, 11:21 AM
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Can't be botherd to read it all but a few things spring to mind
1. Israel was created by displacing people form their land and homes it doesn't matter about countries and politics when fundamentally people want their homes back.
2. Despite this fact israel has got bigger over the years pushing settlers further into arab land.
3. mossad torture innocent people all over jordan palestine and lebanon
4.people belong to land land does not belong to people.
If anyone disagrees with these statements I'm happy for them to prove me wrong.
1. Israel was created by displacing people form their land and homes it doesn't matter about countries and politics when fundamentally people want their homes back.
2. Despite this fact israel has got bigger over the years pushing settlers further into arab land.
3. mossad torture innocent people all over jordan palestine and lebanon
4.people belong to land land does not belong to people.
If anyone disagrees with these statements I'm happy for them to prove me wrong.
24 April 2002, 11:46 AM
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No. It is up to you to prove your statements are true, not for me to prove you wrong.
If you can't be bothered to read it all. Keep your opinion to yourself.
If you can't be bothered to read it all. Keep your opinion to yourself.