elondan

I've been writing about the subject in American forums,
and thought it would be interesting to hear what the British think about situation...

elondan

I'm sorry I meant Palestinian...

Dave T-S

I do not understand the history well enough, but the British appear to have played a part in this when they handed the mandate back after the second World War.

I think it is a situation where there are potentially no winners, only losers, and I wish we could all live together in some sort of harmony.

Note I am not having a go at either/any side.

Sadly religion seems to be the biggest cause of strife on this planet

Mr Footlong

iTrader: (7)

Religeous wars are a complete and utter joke in my opinion. It is simply unbelievable how people can go to such extremes, such as Racial Hatred, War, Genocide etc simply becaue they believe in different form of god. People can be so backwards and simple sometimes
It's strange how we can't just live together in relative peace. I reckon that is all going to get horribly worse in the not too distant too......
There is the genuine argument over seizing/rights to land amongst things with the Israelis/Palestinians, but I keep out of it on the news to be honest. Don't see the point in getting too involved in it as it has been going on for years and will most likely be just as bad in the years to come[img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Cheers,

Nick

Diesel

'Religion' is an euphemism - it is always about land. Catholic v Protestant; Iraq v Muslims etc It's just a label IMHO for those involved, and not the real reason for the conflict.

carl

Diesel -- the Iraqis are Muslims

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Elonden

Sorry m8 but I'm not currently enamoured with Israel There are always arguments to both sides but I believe that the Israelis have at this time been too strong-handed. Since Sharon got in, the Israeli Government has played hard-ball with the result that for whatever short-term goals they may have achieved, the long-term damage in both local & international relations has been irrepairable.

There is much history going back eons on both sides and in that time the Brits have without doubt not played an honest hand, however, WTF does everyone have to look to the past to decide their point of view?

I would've hoped that certain historical events of the last century would preclude the Israeli government from acting in a simillar fashion whatever the so-called "justification" becasue whatever historical sympathy they might have is rapidly going out the window, whilst they will be a-judged in future history to be no better than their previous oppressors.

At the end of the day the majority of Israelis and the majority of Palestinians want to live in peace, together. Make it easier for both sides.

I can never see why people get so worked up about religion, colour of skin, what football team It's political a$$-wipes on both sides of whatever argument that ferment this kind of cr@p [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] At the end of the day, both you and I are of the same species and live on the same patch of earth and we all want to be happy during our brief sojourn here...

Bollox - my opinion & I've said it.

elondan

look I didn't vote for Sharon and still I feel we had no choice.
I can go through the history of the region but like you said it won't be of much help, although it would help to understand the current situation.
In the year 2000 (not so long ago) Clinton with Barak (left wing prime minister) offered Arafat a state on 95% of the land with east Jerusalem as its capitol, something that could have resaulted in a Palestinian state, an historic moment, a thing not Jordan or Egypt who ruled in these territories before Israel ever offered!
but Arafat refused the proposal... and turned to terror, he let Hamas and Islamic Jihad do as they wish, and rescently had his own forces commit suiscide bombings as well.
Israel under a lot of pressure from the U.S held back, but it became unbarable, I don't know if you can understand whats it like to have people blow up every other day, while drinking coffee or riding a bus...
Israel is now doing what Arafat should have done, fight the terror infrastructure.
and for your knowlege the IDF is doing everything in its power so innocent Palestinians wouldn't get hurt, thats why we risk our soldiers (22 killed yesturday) and still not using artilery.
By the way its not about religon, 75% of Israelis are not religous, its about two nations fighting over the same land.

TRIGGER

Elondan - I can quite understand your feelings but the truth of it is that Israel have not given the Palestinians the land they promised to give many years ago. This is why Arafat refused the deal. He didnt then turn to terror tactics - the problems only started when Sharon proved to be such an agressor.

But who started the latest problems in fact is irrelevant. Israel have never left the occupied territories (i.e. 'Occupied'). Israel have an army and a stable government. Israel have an economy.

Until Israel leave the Palestinians' land, allow them to have a real government and an economy, the Palestinians will have nothing to lose and therefore terror is their only card to play. The threat that the Israelis can just move their tanks in at any moment is not a situation that can build a stable country. Israel want Arafat to control his people, yet they have destroyed all his police stations and military bases !!

I hate all this conflict and feel that both sides are basically as bad as each other. It's just that Israel are in a position to do something about it. My fear if they dont, is that the Arab world will soon decide enough is enough - then we have huge problems.

elondan

Look Israel occupied the Trritories back in 1967 from Jordan and Egypt, there was never a Palestinian state!
Israel offered to give it back to Jordan and Egypt in return for peace they refused and instead we got the "Yom Kipur" war in 1973.
even after 1978 when we gave back Sinai (see a pattern, Israel is willing to give back land for a true peace) to Egypt they didn't want the Gaza strip back (I wonder why?)
Now Israel is trying to give back the territoties, and its not as easy at it seems, and we are still not sure who we are dealing with.
as for terror, even when Arafat had all its police stations he did nothing to prevent terror, and even when Rabin & Peres where in control and talked peace we had suiscide bombings in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and even when Barak was in power we had Terror (back then the IDF wasn't in and they had their police stations) and he was the first prime minister to offer them a state!!
the reason Arafat chose terror is because he wants to go back to 1948, which will never happen, they don't deserve any prizes for attacking us in 1948, he is influenced by Iran(there is proof) and had no intention to sign on anything!! (ask Clinton and Dennis Ross)
Its true Israel has an army and its there tp protect our citizens, we won't give back any land until we know that the country to form beside us won't be a threat on us.
and just like the U.S had all the right to go in Afganistan to fight terror we will go in with our army as long as the Palestinians won't fight terror themselves.

elondan

one more thing,
I hope you'll never be in our situation where you are the only democrat country in the region,
around you are countries ruled by dictators, or religous regimes who eliminate everyone not to their liking (like Saddam did with the curds, or the now gone Asad who killed about 30,000 people in a village that dared stand up to him.)
sorry, I'm wrong there was a time when England had to face a dictator and a facsist...back in WW2 and as I reacall there wasn't a lot of chemistry going on between England,Italy and Germany at the time.
I never saw a jew (or even a christian) in any of the Arab countries parlaments,
and I also never heard of an Israeli bomb himself or doing any terror attempts in the world.
but I remember a plane crashing in Scotland, and the Olimpyc games in Munich, and the World trade centre in NYC...
What I'm trying to say that its not so easy to make peace with our neighbours and we are paying a heavy price by just trying to...

fast bloke

Elondan - you need to open your eyes. Forget religion and past deeds. Pretend you are palistinian. Look at the past week as a single entity. Does that look right to you? I do not know if you believe in an eye for an eye, but the people you are fighting certainly do. This puts everyone in a no win situation.

I watched 30 years of bombing and shooting in Belfast. I still get a shiver down my spine when I walk down the stairs in BHS at the place where I was standing 26 years ago when a no warning car bomb went off, taking out half the shop and killing everyone outside the shop. I was 4 years old, and I can't remember how many doed or who planted it, but if I took an eye for an eye view I would still be bent on retribution, as where half of Northern Ireland for a quarter of a century. Not necessarily retribution for this, but retribution for something. It was only when one side decided that they would offer a possible compromise that any progress was made. It is not easy. There is still a lot of distrust between the two sides, but now this is vented as political name calling rather than murder. Hopefully my children will not have to witness the screams of people who were not lucky enough to die in the blast, but instead 'only' lost their arms and legs. Both nations need to look at the future and not to the past. The big challenge is to get one nation to make the first step. Israel is seen by most of the rest of the world as the agressor at this point in time. Maybe this is a good time for them to pull back and offer the first compromise. After all, they have claimed that they have arrested hundres of militants and possible suicide bombers, as well as closed down numerous bomb making factories. This might be enough to give them the breating space they need to come up with a future for both Israel and the palestinians. If they continue on the current path they will encourage endless numbers of terrorists and will never see a peace until some compromise is reached. I suspect that you will come back at me telling me what the palestinians have done, but that is exactly the point of view that they would take and is the point of view that will fuel the conflict.

elondan

No I don't believe in "eye to eye" and I didn't vote for Sharon,
I voted Barak.
but what we are doing now is not getting back, if we did...well you know how much power we have, we don't use even 30% of our army.
what we are doing is fighting the terror infrastructre, since Arafat did nothing and eve condoned it we had to move in and put a stop to it.
The world loves the underdog, but I'm sorry just like in the Taliban's case the underdog is not a dog but a snake, and you cant play with those.
Israel gave peace many chances, and you know why the americans are less Anti Israel now,
because they know what we (and them ) offered Arafat and they know he is pro Iraq...
You forget what you're dealing with, these people danced on the rooftops when the WTC in NY was brought down.
Israelis think we should get out but not before we know we did everthing to make sure we'll have no more terror.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Elonden

This morning another suicide bomber blew up an Israeli bus I'm heartily sorry that it happened and even more that a number of people have been killed and injured

News reported that the Israeli cabinet has gone in to session to consider their (Israeli?) response. No doubt they'll go and jump on some part of Palestine or Arafat's structures and pound it

That will only go to strengthed the resolve of the next Palestinian suicide bomber

Why not instead offer no retribution, pull back the troops and enter into peace negotiations brokered by some neutral country?

Nah! Won't happen. Why doesn't your government grow up, take some responsibility and take a step forward? Votes at home? Power hungry? It doesn't have to be the other side making the first move.

I'm too with fb as I'm from NI where for all my childhood there were people being killed all around and Army on the streets and you were frightened to open the door at night. Used to go to school in the Malone Road where daily there were the bangs of bombs going off. We had bombing near where we lived in Dunmury and the IRA took potshots at the Army over the roof of our house. The difference is that certain people woke up, realised there was no future and put themselves (politically and life) on the line to come to some sort of agreement. I'm glad they did - it doesn't please everyone but advances have been made and although there are a few terrorist acts by extremists on both side (mainly criminals who are trying to politicise their actions) everyone can get on with life.

However, for as long as each side tit-for-tats the more people will die and the more destruction of both relations and property will go on.

elondan

I'm sorry but I disagree,
our foriegn affairs minister is Shimon Peres and our minister of security (defence) is Fuad,
both from the labor party, both where part of Barak's goverment and the late Rabin's.
we offered the Palestinians a state, we showed our intentions and drew back from what you call now Paletianian authority, we allowed Arafat to come from Algerie although we thought he is a terrorist with blood on his hands,
we sat down in Oslo, and later in Camp david with the americans and offered Arafat to go out leave him 95% of the land and a state....he refused!! (I say again look at interviews with Clinton and Dennis Ross)
So why when now we fight terror after we had more than 50 civilians killed in one week!!
you tell us we don't offer anything?

Diesel

>>Diesel -- the Iraqis ARE Muslims !<<

Carl, you may be right mate, i'll check up, but I still have a feeling that they are not muslims. Is Iraq not secular, very unlike Iran? Sadam Husein does not visually look anything like a mad mullah! The rhetoric does not include killing people or fellow muslims 'in the name of Allah' - something the other Qu'ran spin doctors deviously ignore...

Let the truth be known, inshallah!

elondan

Iraqis are muslims but they don't have a religous regime but rather a military dictatorship.

Diesel

I totally understand the actions of the Israelis - terrorists enter their country and blow up their innocent people; their children are murdered drinking coffee... Some kind of retaliatory action was both inevitable and necessary. After all the failed diplomacy this type of 'you'll force us to hurt you back' action is justified. 'Conider that you will hurt your own people with these actions' must surely have some effect on a suicide bomber (please!)? Do they really want more pain and suffering for their people?

It is now however time for Israel to back off - never be seen as a bully. Further negotiation can not happen when you have the Palestinians by the throat. You may think it futile, but it is less futile than killing.

I sympathise with both sides (maybe more with the underdog) and believe the strong must lead the weak - see their desparation in such despicable acts and be pragmatic (tough I know...). No piece of land is worth living in such circumstances - do a deal so you can live in peace rather than be seen as to sit arrogantly back whilst World War III is lining up...

Shalom

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

There are different types of muslims in Iraq - can't remember the names but they all worship slightly differently - leading to "non-understanding" of other people's particular personal religion.

Saddam uses his particular branch majority to persecute the minorities in the same way that Milosovic used the Serbs to batter the Croats, Kosovans and Bosnians

All in the name of petty power - what an effin' waste of what humanity can offer each other [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

elondan

We didn't occoupie more land the opposite is true, we where in control over the whole area, and we gave them back almost all of Gaza and most of the west bank as well.
as for the sttelments, I couldn't agree with you more, and be sure that we will evacuate them evantually. like we did in Siani, first sign peace than evacuate!
As for the international community,
we do have a lot of respect for them, but we won't sacrifice our citizens for cheap oil, or embargos the Arabs are threatning the world with, and you know I'm right.
I can't start describe the frustration, but we are dealing with people that don't belive in Democracy, hated us and tried to eliminate us by force,
look at the arab countries their economies, goverments...

Diesel

It's all coming back to me now! Sunni Muslims in the South East of Iraq... Yep, and these get persecuted by the other type of Muslims within Iraq. This brings up a dodgy question - ever seen a Muslim (esp a rich Gulf oil state type muslim) help another poorer Muslim country/state? Nope didn't think so....

elondan

Ever seen a Muslm country give their minorities a state...NO!!
Jordan and Egypt rulled the west bank and Gaza bfore Israel, did they give them a state?? NO!!
the refugee camps everywhere, those are Palestinians who where promised that once Israel is beaten (1948) they will get their lands back and the ones of the Jews, they lost! did any of the arab countries help them? NO!
the minoroties in Iraq, Syria and Jordan are ruling the country (Jordan has 70% Palestinians) why is that?
I'm happy for you guys you don't have to deal with these kind of neighbours but we do...
and what do we get in return..hard time from the world who wants cheap oil!!

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Elonden

The only reason you occupy the land is that it was taken by force in previous wars. OK - so the Arabs at the time weren't very good at fighting and gave it to you in return for a truce, but bottom line is that Israel left it's boundaries and expanded over other people's land.

Going back further, the state of Israel was created by acts of terrorism against the country then in control - the British, after they renaged on a deal to create the state of Israel after the war, when they decided that the existing population (Palestinians) might not really appreciate it.

For f.. sake, we could go back for ever and ever and drudge up more and more so-called justification for present day attrocities.

Prehaps the time has come to attempt to forget the past and try something more constructive.

elondan

to be more accurate, they declared war on Israel, thinking they would waste us (7 countries against one small and new one) they where worng and lost...tough.

again not accurate,
the so called terror was only!! against army targets (headquaters...) not the British civilians, even more only in Israel (then Palestine) you didn't see any Jews blow themselves up in London!!
and Israel was created by the U.N which divided Palestine to two, half Arab and half Jewish,
what happened then...the Arabs with the Arab countries around attacked us, and LOST!!

You can't just erase the past, because if thats true, we are in control and thats whats matter right? worng, we don't own the west bank, and we wait for someone to sit seriously and talk to us,
and it seems to be Arafat isn't up for the job.

elondan

One more thing...
this is not the past:


its this mornning where 8 people dies while on the way to work.

this is not for the fun of it but rather deal withn the ones doing the picture above: