J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

With tuition fees going up and an average degree course costing getting on for 25 grand, plus living costs, plus the fact for those three years you arent earning or contributing when you add it up it probably costs the best part of a hundred grand to get a degree, with the fact that labour made it accessible to all, which was nice but has devalued the degree to an extent, it makes me wonder whether its actually worth it.

For a lot of students, they learn on the job and a majority of graduates, are, frankly, useless at anything other than drinking, partying, making a mess and occasionally doing the odd bit of work to scrape a 2/2. I have seen and been surprised to see a few mates kids go to Uni, only to bail on it as they just werent Uni material, even in its dumbed down form so now have massive debts and not even a 2/2 to show for it.

When you go to work, you leanr the job, on the job by and large and a lot of jobs insists on a degree, three years of your life to get a ticket to get a decent job (maybe) and most of the stuff you have ingested is irrelevant to what you end up doing, its just prooved you can learn and pass some exams, ok perhaps in medicine and engineering its building blocks but you have to have a degree to be a Librarian nowadays ffs, three years to stack and stamp books and tell people to shush.

Anyone else think we have created a monster which is overkill for putting the right individuals in the right jobs, thousands upon thousands of people swotting for stuff they will never, ever use when really a few interviews and assesments will render their acheivement redundant if they dont pass muster anyway, why not just cut to the chase for a majority of jobs and do three years of on the job training rather than three years sepaerate to it and then start ?

I dont think a degree prooves that much these days, I know some massively bright and capable people without one and some who I cant comprehend how they got one, I have seen so many dropping out. I am going to be realitic about my three, we have the money put to one side so one way or another they will get it, but if they arent going to benefit from Uni, why go ?

I am not proposing we abolish Universities but think they should go back to seats of research and learning for those who need it, to push boundaries, not as a three year doss for those who could learn on the job.

ScoobyDoo555

Working in Education, I would say that a degree IS still worth it........

BUT in the right sector.

All these higher fees will do is (imho) 1.bring value back to the degree (as less people will have one - rightly or wrongly) & most importantly, 2. Get rid of a lot of stupid degrees that mean nothing.

And I'll even use my own area in the same context - Sound & Music Technology.
An area that is predominantly vocationally-based (ie hands-on)
The more technical aspects will still require a degree, but generally it's a pointless exercise.
In my area (and I'm sure it's the same for other equivalent areas), qualifications such as the HNC/D will be of more benefit.

I'm personally all for it, as whilst I've always applauded society/government's efforts to bring Higher Education to the masses, I ALWAYS said, just because somebody has the opportunity to do "something", doesn't necessarily mean that they should.

We also have this policy of "progression" - completion of one level of course SHOULDN'T give you right of passage to the next higher level. There is ALWAYS the chance that an A-Level standard student is academically just that: A-Level standard.

And this applies across the educational/training spectrum.


So to respond to your post, I agree (mostly!)

Dan

Jamz3k

Hopefully with tution fees going up it will make people think twice before enrolling for that really pathetic course that will never help them get a job.

Art ffs who needs a degree in making papermache *******?

Jamz3k

Totally agree with this statement, I did brilliantly on my GCSE's but failed miserablely at my A-Levels.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

I suppose there is a point I didnt make in that it is a time a lot of people enjoy and remember fondly, new friendships are made, people do some (limited) growing up but I think with the country on its knees, delaying having to work for a few extra years could be considered a luxury for some, then there is gap years, when did this come in, they get all of the summer off each year and yes its nice to go and find oneself I spent the summer in Rhode Island ona summer camp myself but too often Higher education seems to be a way of dragging out the distasteful business of working for a good few years, my wife has a mate who was in full time education until she was 26 !

ScoobyDoo555

I've got no issues with people working to progress, and it is possible to do so, but most institutions give a carte blanche to those with, say GCSEs @ "C" or above, straight onto A-Level/equivalent courses.

Even more so if you look at lower GCSE grades.

And imho, it's just not fair on the student, planting aspirations that they've got little chance of achieving.

I think this country is going to slowly start "tuning into Sanity FM" and the dawning reality of the false promises not actually coming to fruition.

ScoobyDoo555

double feckin post

hodgy0_2

I am certainly not going to argue for the creation of Basildon University running degree courses in Frisbee Studies

but i disagree with your point about "planting aspirations that they've got little chance of achieving."

the problem in this country is too little aspiration not too much aspiration

SJ_Skyline

It depends what you want to achieve. There are some jobs that mandate a degree (and further if you consider the scope of the PhD), there are some companies that won't touch you without a degree and even with a degree you can only progress so far without subsequent qualifications like an MBA.

I agree with the points raised here that degrees are not for everybody and should never have been touted that way and there is no place (in my opinion) for the sort of courses that can be viewed as a skive such as "Frisbee Studies"

ScoobyDoo555

Correct - perhaps I should have phrased it as "unrealistic" aspirations.

David Lock

Quite a few of the "not interesteds" at my school left and went into the city and made a lot of money in the markets as dealers but I think that has changed now. Less of the barrow boy approach.

My daughter chose a health related career and needed a degree and even that is not enough so she needs a post grad qualification before she can get on the right ladder. She will have a big debt to pay back and that worries me (and her) a lot. My son chose music and did an HND equivalent but declined a degree offer and does his own thing. So both decisions were right IMHO.

I did a 4 year engineering degree for free which was hard work - 26 lectures a week and I still remember fellow students on "Arts" courses with 6 lectures a week

And for the Bransons and Sugars of this world they will succeed without any of this degree stuff.

Degrees for the professions are necessary, degrees for many specialist subjects - Greek History etc - are a luxury and degrees for the rest are a waste of money and 3 years of your life, aside from making new friends, boozing and ********, are wasted.

dl

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I think we need a purge and clean up of universities. Because some of the courses they offer basically are a farce, and poor value for money for whoever pays the fees. Certainly some of the ex-polytechnics need a damn good shake up.

Many institutes are offering mickey mouse courses, or giving false claims about the future propects that a course may give for a graduate. Certainly in engineering, there is a severe lack of industry support, so graduates are being churned out that are totally useless for employers without further training.

At the time tuition fees were introduced (I was the last year to get them paid by the tax payer - yay "old" Conservatives ), and considered it a serious restriction and hardship for those on the breadline (not to mention a farce of Labour's "free for all" ideologies) . Its all well and good deferring a loan until the graduate gets employment, but that assuming they'll get a decent wage soon after graduation. Many students don't, partly due to the courses they chose not being up to scratch for its associated industry.

However my attitude has changed a little; Tuition fees force the students to be more financially responsible, and have a little more grip on reality. But the loan system is dangeous in that it allows one to spend ***** nilly with the promise that "it'll all be ok when you drop into your £40K a year job". And that's an issues as most don't get that wage for a very long time, if at all. Then on top of that they need to buy a house, buy a car, and may even end up with a family. This is just another addition to the life long debt that is all part and parcel of the UK's debt culture - people spending money that they don't have, fine until the bank asks for it back, or raises the interest rates.

I'm also totally against uncapped fees. Capped fees pose an incentive to institutions to be more efficient and wise with their spending. Uncapped limits will result in lazy or wasteful spending , especially when professors and academics ask for more funding for their own research/needs or ulterior motives and not using it to teach the students they lecture. This will cause fees to sprial to point that higher education will become an elitist system that serves only the wealthy. On the otherhand, it will further deter students from doing mickey mouse courses that are just a waste of time and money. Even so better assesment and control of university courses is needed to root these out rogue courses and monitor spending. Course prospectuses giving false promises, or even quoting blatant lies has to be actioned upon, with severe penalties for institutions that fall foul.

On a social aspect; Uni is great. It is the time when you get thrown into a huge mix of individuals all in the same boat as yourself. Never again in my life will I meet or interact with such a diverse amount of people, be it from courses in uni, or getting ratarsed in the SU bar.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Like that, Sanity FM, I think you are right.

Aspiration wise I think there is a lot of it, just some struggle with the application and expect it to land in their laps, ok University is a positive step but it isn't for everyone and there is a strong case for getting kids into jobs earlier, trained up vocationally, day release, OND's, HND's are, for most people as much education they need when leaving education, but keeping learning is the key.

Leave school at 16, A levels, 18, Degree, 21, gap year 22 etc, so 22 before you embark on a career, paid work that contributes to the GDP, ok for Doctors and Lawyer, Engineers and Physicists its essential but for me, I am Computer Database Administrator (DBA), I am qualified via on the job qualifications and still study but dont have a degree, OND in computing, done and dusted by 19, I got the job on experience and the fact I was contracting, not because I have a certificate.

This isnt me dissing the degree thing because I dont have one, or could never get one, just me thinking that its become the norm to be in education until 21/22 at vast expense, seems like dragging it out to me in a lot of cases.

ScoobyDoo555

The big one is that there are a great many qualifications that offer degree (and higher)-level education, so you can be qualified (even overly!) without actually having a degree.

Leslie

Depends what you want to do of course.

The RAF ran a system where you could go to University as a member of the Service FOC, and when you got a degree you would get accelerated initial promotion as you joined the RAF proper.

Trouble was, they had no significant experience of the Service and with the accelerated promotion they suffered lack of worldly experience and were unable to cope with running men under them. They also were that much further behind with their own initial training and the degree did nothing to help them as aircrew.

Many used to say that they would have been better off in a Service career having had more learning about the "University of Life" in the Service from the start.

Les

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

We had some RAF boys on our Uni course doing some top-up education. They mainly worked on the radar systems, so actually knew more about general communication networking and control systems than the lecturers did.

GC8WRX

degrees are only necessary for old school employers, nu skool look for ability to think on feet, common sense and enthusiasm, uni cant teach you those!


As for these ***** who go for the mickey mouse degrees, you deserve everything you get when you end up in comet on the same level as the non uni kids but with 12 grand more debt then them LOL!

michaelro

I think it varies.

A decent degree in the right subject can put you ahead in the queue but on the job experience is also invaluable.

I didn't go to University as I didn't know what I wanted to do for a career at the time.

I tried different things and ended up working as a DBA
I've had lots of on the job training in my area of work over the years and earn an above average salary.

I could have been earning more had I got a decent degree, then again I could have no job, a mountain of debt and a worthless bit of paper...

shamone

iTrader: (1)

All depends on what you want to do with your degree. Doing a "proper" degree at a decent uni is worthwhile in my opinion, but getting £25k+ of debt for a degree with big ears in something like dance ffs - it's just not going to pay for itself in the long run.

For me, not having one has seriously held back my career progress and i wish i'd done it at the time - but didn't fancy the prospect of such massive debt when i was 18!! This has now cost me far more in the long run in lost earnings, and still ensures a lot of doors are firmly closed - especially in large companies where HR departments have to tick the "has degree" box for you to get an interview, regardless of your experience or how good you are at actually doing your job.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

SJ_Skyline

I had a bet on that you would turn up on this thread with such a comment so thank you - you have won me £20

My organisation currently sponsors upwards of 100 students studying IT degrees in a number of universites, the universities have free consultation on the content of their degree courses from our employees and the sponsored students have their fees paid. The payback is they are tied to us for 3 years after graduation.

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

I really think that far too many people are doing degrees. There are a limited number of people who can benefit from this level of education. They should be able to earn their place on merit, and not on breeding.

The previous system failed, as it gave the opportunity to anyone who had a brain cell.

The proposed system is a fail, as the best person may not get to go to uni, its just the richest.

What they really need, are A-Levels that are actually testing. That way only the best have the opportunity to actually go. And when they get to go they have free tuition. Therefore, regardless of background, the best get the chance to excel.

As for paying stuff back...I don't really care. If the best are really going to uni, they will get the best jobs, best pay, highest taxes, all sorted.

SJ_Skyline

Luminous, I was right with up til your 3rd paragraph. It's the richest and poorest that get to go under the current rules.

What is needed are enterance exams, maybe this could be testing A-levels as you say but really it should be course-orientated enterance exams.

tarmac terror

iTrader: (2)

Only three career paths where a degree is a must have - Medicine, Engineering, Law.

It used to be that possession of a third level qualification was all that was stated on the job application, this has now moved to stating the class of degree required to get to the interview stage.

SJ_Skyline

Disagree mate,

(congrats on the twins btw )

Consulting firms won't take you without a degree and there's even a ranking between both the firms, the grades and the originating uni. In black and white, my desmond won't see me beyond a certain level within my current employer without further qualifications: I'm not turning this into a how high I can pee thread so I won't go further but I knw where I am, how far I can go and I'm certainly not a Sugar or Branson but I can still push myself.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

This is a student...




...next question!

SJ_Skyline

Got any photos of Truda as a student?

tony de wonderful

That might be the most important thing about tertiary education, it is good for people and society, shakes you out of your 'local' or parochial existence, breaks down social barriers etc.

Ideally secondary education would do this but too many secondary schools recruit from one area, and so you can have just one (almost) social or socio-economic group at a school. Worse still are religious schools or very posh ones!

hodgy0_2

This is absolutly spot on

obviously if you want to do law, medicine, etc a degree is a requirement

but most of the footsie top 100 companies will have career ceilings for non degree holders (implicit or explicit), it is a simple fact

you will always get the exception -- but in truth, the better educated earn more, this forum is living proof of that fact

Petem95

IMO it's not worth it unless you are going to do a proper degree at a top uni. As you say Labour have devalued degree's by trying to get everyone to go to uni (clearly to make them spend longer in education as not enough jobs about).

People will argue that those who went to uni earn more over their lifetime, but those people would probably earn more anyway - degree or not, so it's not really a true figure.

I went to uni and I dont think it was a massive benefit. Ok I maybe went into my field of choice in a slightly more senior role than I would've done without the degree, but those who skipped uni and went straight into work in the same field had probably got above that level with their experience.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Fifteen years ago I was lucky enough to get into a relatively senior position at a Big Four Consultancy.

I was helping with a recruitment campaign and with my university 'attendance certificate' would have had NO chance of even getting an interview as a graduate entrant.

Even then most of the candidates who got to interview had two degrees and at least two languages.