BT 'phone extension and main socket-can they be swapped over ?
23 July 2010, 05:43 PM
#1
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BT 'phone extension and main socket-can they be swapped over ?
In the hallway is the main incoming BT socket, a white box with the horizontal line across and the removable lower cover-single socket/plug for the downstairs 'phone. A few years back now a BT engineer came to connect an extension to the upstairs study. This was wired into the top/back of the main box and into the 'covered' section.
I would like to know if it would be possible to have the cables reversed-the downstairs 'phone to be on a wired- in extension and the current extension to become the main socket making the upstairs line the main one ?
I will get a telecoms engineer to do this but wanted to be sure it was possible before getting quotes.
Hope that this makes sense.
Cheers and thanks.
JBL
I would like to know if it would be possible to have the cables reversed-the downstairs 'phone to be on a wired- in extension and the current extension to become the main socket making the upstairs line the main one ?
I will get a telecoms engineer to do this but wanted to be sure it was possible before getting quotes.
Hope that this makes sense.
Cheers and thanks.
JBL
23 July 2010, 06:12 PM
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You need the main box to be your main connection incoming to the house due to the fact it has the ringing oscillator in it, putting an extension one on means it wouldnt ring at all, so take note (though a new main box is about 3 quid from RS components 
)
Tony
)Tony
23 July 2010, 06:22 PM
#7
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Doesn't look simple at all...wires in from outside ( main BT line), wires to socket, wires to extension hidden away behind the covered bit...no way am I hacking into this lot.
Why ?
The extension to the upstairs study was done pre-computer days and I am informed that the computer should be on the main incoming line and not an extension from it. Just trying to improve bb conectivity and performance.
Cheers and thanks for the info'
JBL
Why ?
The extension to the upstairs study was done pre-computer days and I am informed that the computer should be on the main incoming line and not an extension from it. Just trying to improve bb conectivity and performance.
Cheers and thanks for the info'
JBL
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23 July 2010, 06:32 PM
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You'd probably be wasting your time to be honest.
2 questions,
1. What sync speed are you getting with the router plugged in upstairs?
2. What speed do the bt checker or any other ISP checker say you should get with your phone number?
In my experience, as long as you've got a microfilter on every phone or fax machine, and you've pulled out the ringer wire from all sockets, there's not much difference between using the master socket and a single other extension. Maybe 1 or 2Mbit. Obviously if you're only getting 2Mbit, then an extra 1 or 2 is worth having but if you're getting 10Mbit and up it's not worth it.
Could you not plug the router in downstairs and run a CAT 5 cable to your PC or use a wireless connection?
2 questions,
1. What sync speed are you getting with the router plugged in upstairs?
2. What speed do the bt checker or any other ISP checker say you should get with your phone number?
In my experience, as long as you've got a microfilter on every phone or fax machine, and you've pulled out the ringer wire from all sockets, there's not much difference between using the master socket and a single other extension. Maybe 1 or 2Mbit. Obviously if you're only getting 2Mbit, then an extra 1 or 2 is worth having but if you're getting 10Mbit and up it's not worth it.
Could you not plug the router in downstairs and run a CAT 5 cable to your PC or use a wireless connection?
23 July 2010, 07:08 PM
#10
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You'd probably be wasting your time to be honest.
2 questions,
1. What sync speed are you getting with the router plugged in upstairs?
2. What speed do the bt checker or any other ISP checker say you should get with your phone number?
In my experience, as long as you've got a microfilter on every phone or fax machine, and you've pulled out the ringer wire from all sockets, there's not much difference between using the master socket and a single other extension. Maybe 1 or 2Mbit. Obviously if you're only getting 2Mbit, then an extra 1 or 2 is worth having but if you're getting 10Mbit and up it's not worth it.
Could you not plug the router in downstairs and run a CAT 5 cable to your PC or use a wireless connection?
2 questions,
1. What sync speed are you getting with the router plugged in upstairs?
2. What speed do the bt checker or any other ISP checker say you should get with your phone number?
In my experience, as long as you've got a microfilter on every phone or fax machine, and you've pulled out the ringer wire from all sockets, there's not much difference between using the master socket and a single other extension. Maybe 1 or 2Mbit. Obviously if you're only getting 2Mbit, then an extra 1 or 2 is worth having but if you're getting 10Mbit and up it's not worth it.
Could you not plug the router in downstairs and run a CAT 5 cable to your PC or use a wireless connection?
But(good news) I have been doing BT speed tests ...This morning was 6450kbps, afternoon 6284kbps last evening dropped to1694 Speedtester says 7150 is max achievable. Speeds have been all over the place for weeks now so trying all sorts of avenues to help things along, hence the original question.
Router is BThub v1 and we cannot move it from the end of the extension as the macduocore is wired direct via ethernet in the study. Wife/business/lots of business email etc and she just does not want to trust wifi so I use the macbook wifi downstairs.
Cheers
JBL
23 July 2010, 07:24 PM
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Ah, I see your problem, you're with BT for your broadband. BT broadband is great, if you want to use it between midnight and lunchtime. Afternoon and evening times are awful, they're either throttling connections down to 1-2Mbit or the sheer amount of people using BT broadband connections is overloading their network. Moving your master socket will not help in the slightest.
I got fed up on BT Broadband with getting 4Mbit in the morning and 1Mbit in the evenings. I moved to BeThere (www.bethere.co.uk). Now I get 8Mbit all day all night
What speed testing site are you using? 6450kbps is actually pretty good, you'll really only get more than that if you move up to one of the "up to 20 meg" or "up to 24 meg" services. BT do do one of these, BeThere, O2 and Sky are supposed to be pretty good as well. They're websites will tell you what you can expect to get.
I got fed up on BT Broadband with getting 4Mbit in the morning and 1Mbit in the evenings. I moved to BeThere (www.bethere.co.uk). Now I get 8Mbit all day all night
What speed testing site are you using? 6450kbps is actually pretty good, you'll really only get more than that if you move up to one of the "up to 20 meg" or "up to 24 meg" services. BT do do one of these, BeThere, O2 and Sky are supposed to be pretty good as well. They're websites will tell you what you can expect to get.
23 July 2010, 07:31 PM
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Theres your problem right there,
networks & the web were written for PC's, so count yourself lucky you get anything
Try an iphone, there meant to be the dogs danglies, and can cure anything
All joking aside
if i recall, the master socket should be on the entry point into the house,
so theoretically it can be any socket, however you may get issues with
filters etc, if you have spurs of the master socket, and you move it.
You can get a new type of master socket, that eliminates the need for
microfilters
What router are you using, there are plenty of toolkits out there for
tweaking routers, by altering your SN ratio of the router, can play
dividends.
Mart
networks & the web were written for PC's, so count yourself lucky you get anything
Try an iphone, there meant to be the dogs danglies, and can cure anything
All joking aside
if i recall, the master socket should be on the entry point into the house,
so theoretically it can be any socket, however you may get issues with
filters etc, if you have spurs of the master socket, and you move it.
You can get a new type of master socket, that eliminates the need for
microfilters
What router are you using, there are plenty of toolkits out there for
tweaking routers, by altering your SN ratio of the router, can play
dividends.
Mart
23 July 2010, 07:48 PM
#13
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i would have thought that all the master socket actually signifies is where the BT engineer terminates the the BT connection from the exchange, inside your property (ring loop excepted).
if you move the master socket -- all you do in effect is move a socket which says "master" on it.
the bottom line is that if you complained to BT of poor line quality all they would guarantee is the signal to the point where they terminated the line inside your property - not where you moved the "master" socket too
if you move the master socket -- all you do in effect is move a socket which says "master" on it.
the bottom line is that if you complained to BT of poor line quality all they would guarantee is the signal to the point where they terminated the line inside your property - not where you moved the "master" socket too
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 23 July 2010 at 07:51 PM.
23 July 2010, 07:50 PM
#14
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Doesn't look simple at all...wires in from outside ( main BT line), wires to socket, wires to extension hidden away behind the covered bit...no way am I hacking into this lot.
Why ?
The extension to the upstairs study was done pre-computer days and I am informed that the computer should be on the main incoming line and not an extension from it. Just trying to improve bb conectivity and performance ...
Why ?
The extension to the upstairs study was done pre-computer days and I am informed that the computer should be on the main incoming line and not an extension from it. Just trying to improve bb conectivity and performance ...
At a previous property I had a router on an extension upstairs but was getting about 0.5Mb/s less than on the main socket. Turned out that over the years I'd added to the extensions in the house but had used cheap cable. Re-wired all the way though with cat 5e and all was well with the world! You could try just disconnecting the bell wire and see what difference that makes?
Dave
23 July 2010, 08:07 PM
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The fact is, if you are getting almost 6.5Mbit in the morning and afternoon, and in the evening (when you want to use it most) it drops to 1.5Mbit then that is congestion. Moving the master socket or removing the bell wire will not make any difference. If it was a master socket problem then you would consistently get 1.5Mbit, it wouldn't fluctuate. You need to change ISP. This is a very common complaint for BT Broadband.
The only ISP I can vouch for is BeThere, but I believe O2 should also be as good. With these ISPs you won't get a significant drop-off in speed in the evenings. I've heard good things about Sky as well.
The only ISP I can vouch for is BeThere, but I believe O2 should also be as good. With these ISPs you won't get a significant drop-off in speed in the evenings. I've heard good things about Sky as well.
23 July 2010, 08:54 PM
#16
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Gosh, thanks all, some really good stuff there to think about.
Re'BT, guess we are just lazy and it was easier to get everything all in one package and just pay one DD, any issues have to be BT !
Will give serious thought to change !
Cheers and thanks
JBL
Re'BT, guess we are just lazy and it was easier to get everything all in one package and just pay one DD, any issues have to be BT !
Will give serious thought to change !
Cheers and thanks
JBL
23 July 2010, 09:00 PM
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go to the back of each socket and gently remove wire from terminal three there all marked up this is the ringing circuit and can transmit all sorts of interference around your int wiring and slow down b/band dont worry about your phones not ringing the micro filter as a capacitor in and will take care of this dont move master as if bt have to fault it you will be billed you can move int wiring off of front (lower plate) but not the main itself if you swap sockets it can make your b/b connection worse
23 July 2010, 10:25 PM
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Up until last year I have been a Telecomms engineer for 17 years since I left school. To keep things simple the only difference between the master and slave sockets is that a capacitor and resistor are fitted to the master to make your phones ring. The bell wire (numbered 3 in each socket) only extends the ringing circuit from the master to each slave socket. It is possible that poor cable or connections in each socket can cause problems with quality of the ADSL connection. It is also worth noting you must use a filter on every connection in the house e.g. each phone and router. Make sure you use the correct tool for the connections if you do play around with them, poorly connected cables is normally the biggest source of faults.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
23 July 2010, 11:26 PM
#19
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Thanks again, info just gets better.
Let me be absolutely sure about this before wife throws a wobbly !!!
Downstairs is our main incoming masterbox (the only one). From the front is the socket/plug that goes via a filter to the downstairs phone. I remove the lower plate, find wire 3 on the socket and remove it.
I go upstairs to the only other box , unscrew lid and remove wire3 from this socket. This box has a filter and then a cable to the phone and another cable from the same filter to the BT Homehubv1.
And if wire 3 is terminated the 'phones downstairs and upstairs will still ring because of the filters being connected ?
Correct ????????????
Sorry to be so pendantic, just want to be sure of what I am doing.
Cheers
JBL
Let me be absolutely sure about this before wife throws a wobbly !!!
Downstairs is our main incoming masterbox (the only one). From the front is the socket/plug that goes via a filter to the downstairs phone. I remove the lower plate, find wire 3 on the socket and remove it.
I go upstairs to the only other box , unscrew lid and remove wire3 from this socket. This box has a filter and then a cable to the phone and another cable from the same filter to the BT Homehubv1.
And if wire 3 is terminated the 'phones downstairs and upstairs will still ring because of the filters being connected ?
Correct ????????????
Sorry to be so pendantic, just want to be sure of what I am doing.
Cheers
JBL
24 July 2010, 12:18 AM
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Thanks again, info just gets better.
Let me be absolutely sure about this before wife throws a wobbly !!!
Downstairs is our main incoming masterbox (the only one). From the front is the socket/plug that goes via a filter to the downstairs phone. I remove the lower plate, find wire 3 on the socket and remove it.
I go upstairs to the only other box , unscrew lid and remove wire3 from this socket. This box has a filter and then a cable to the phone and another cable from the same filter to the BT Homehubv1.
And if wire 3 is terminated the 'phones downstairs and upstairs will still ring because of the filters being connected ?
Correct ????????????
Sorry to be so pendantic, just want to be sure of what I am doing.
Cheers
JBL
Let me be absolutely sure about this before wife throws a wobbly !!!
Downstairs is our main incoming masterbox (the only one). From the front is the socket/plug that goes via a filter to the downstairs phone. I remove the lower plate, find wire 3 on the socket and remove it.
I go upstairs to the only other box , unscrew lid and remove wire3 from this socket. This box has a filter and then a cable to the phone and another cable from the same filter to the BT Homehubv1.
And if wire 3 is terminated the 'phones downstairs and upstairs will still ring because of the filters being connected ?
Correct ????????????
Sorry to be so pendantic, just want to be sure of what I am doing.
Cheers
JBL
24 July 2010, 12:26 AM
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go to the back of each socket and gently remove wire from terminal three there all marked up this is the ringing circuit and can transmit all sorts of interference around your int wiring and slow down b/band dont worry about your phones not ringing the micro filter as a capacitor in and will take care of this dont move master as if bt have to fault it you will be billed you can move int wiring off of front (lower plate) but not the main itself if you swap sockets it can make your b/b connection worse
24 July 2010, 09:42 AM
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http://www.jarviser.co.uk/jarviser/b...enutshell.html
http://broadband-speedup.blogspot.com/
Mart
24 July 2010, 10:34 AM
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As for 'reason why removing the bell wire will make your service any better' read the link I gave you and try it. As the link says 'your mileage may vary' .... so it may not improve matters but if you don't do it you won't know ....
Dave
24 July 2010, 11:01 AM
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The bell wire was for the old analogue exchanges, you dont need it on digital exchanges so you only need the 2 wires attached, also analogue exchanges only supported pulse dialling, where as the more modern digital exchanges support both pulse and tone dialling.
Stick to the simple rules, always use a master box as your interface between the exterior of the house and the interior and you wont go far wrong
Tony
Stick to the simple rules, always use a master box as your interface between the exterior of the house and the interior and you wont go far wrong
Tony
24 July 2010, 03:18 PM
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Depends on the phone. VERY old phones, maybe they will stop ringing. New phones you'll be fine. To be honest with most phones these days just needing one phone connection with all others running over DECT then that argument is totally blown out of the water anyway.
As for 'reason why removing the bell wire will make your service any better' read the link I gave you and try it. As the link says 'your mileage may vary' .... so it may not improve matters but if you don't do it you won't know ....
Dave
As for 'reason why removing the bell wire will make your service any better' read the link I gave you and try it. As the link says 'your mileage may vary' .... so it may not improve matters but if you don't do it you won't know ....
Dave
Don't be taken in by amatuer websites. Removing the bell wire will stop the other phones ringing. The guy who started the thread as far as I can tell does have another phone connected, remove the bell wire it will stop ringing
24 July 2010, 03:23 PM
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The bell wire was for the old analogue exchanges, you dont need it on digital exchanges so you only need the 2 wires attached, also analogue exchanges only supported pulse dialling, where as the more modern digital exchanges support both pulse and tone dialling.
Stick to the simple rules, always use a master box as your interface between the exterior of the house and the interior and you wont go far wrong
Tony
Stick to the simple rules, always use a master box as your interface between the exterior of the house and the interior and you wont go far wrong
Tony
Regards,
Dave
24 July 2010, 06:28 PM
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Hmmm. Wonder why that is. From another *amateur* website ... http://www.jarviser.co.uk/jarviser/broadbandspeed.html ... "... The Bell Wire is the third wire on terminal 3(usually orange/white) used in the standard BT extension wiring that was introduced in the early 1980's when DIY extensions became legal, and BT relaxed their monopoly on supply of phones. From under the road or along a telegraph pole, your house is served by just TWO wires. This third "bell-wire" is generated by the BT master socket and enables actual bells on old type phones to ring using the 50 volt AC ringer signal. Modern phones have electronic ringers which do not need the bell wire. Its other function is to stop other bells tinkling when rotary dials are used, and it was always known as the "anti-tinkle wire" in the 1980's when we all experimanted with DIY extensions...."
What do you disagree with in that excerpt?
Dave
24 July 2010, 06:48 PM
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The bell wire is still needed for extensions from the master socket. The only exception is if you have a digital line, which I very much doubt. There are two defininitions of digital when it comes down to how an exchange works. All modern exchanges are digital, but this is the controller not the lines. Most house phones are analogue circuits on a digital exchange
Regards,
Dave
Regards,
Dave
And you dont need the ringer, thats what the oscillator is for on the master box, the ET card normally has the ringer built in, though some of the remote exchanges use one built on the shelf (along with things like the HOWL), and all exchanges in the UK are now digital with analogue lines (think with the exception of 1 a few years back on some small island somewhere a few years back).
Will work fine without the ringer connected
Tony
24 July 2010, 07:35 PM
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sorry but as i stated the bell wire can cause interference and yes dis it off the filters will provide the ringing and im not going to play the no,s game but a lot longer and b/band since inception
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