subaruturbo_18

So i'm off work with flu (actual flu not man flu) i've been feeling pretty terrible since tuesday. I am scheduled to work from thursday to sunday, and on thursday i phoned in sick, and then again today.

I Got a text from my manager today saying that (i'm guessing this text was sent to both of us) both me and colleague are off sick while the manager is away, she wants a certificate of both of us.

I work part time for a small store while i am not at uni and i didn't even realise the manager was away, infact when i phoned on the thursday i actually phoned her phone but got no answer as per usual. I can also pretty much garentuee the other girl is skyving.

I was at the doctors on thursday, and he told me that by law you can take a week off work without needing a doctors note or sick note. I actually asked him if he could write me one as i thought i would need it for proof for uni as i had work to be handed in.

So firstly when my manager says certificate i am guessing she means sicknote? And secondly is this true about the one week thing?

oh and for the record im starting to feel a bit better now hence why i'm on here, but i felt a bit better this time yesterday, then this morning felt crap.

Oh and also ive only had 1 sick period off (Think it was about 3 days) since beginning of last year so its not like im un trust worthy.

mystery_machine

iTrader: (1)

I think that you can self certificate for seven days inclusive of weekends, then you will need a Doctors certificate.

Could be wrong but pretty sure that is correct

The Zohan

my understanding as well.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

That is true so far as I'm aware. Different places have different policies regarding what they pay you though, so you might miss out there. At my work you self cert for up to a week and fill out a form when you return to work in order to be paid.

Did you get the correct note form the doctor, as it's a fit note now, not a sicknote, I'm assuming that is country wide. I was messed about because of this and my work being awkward while quite seriously poorly.

bigsinky

the new "fit note" is only required from the 8th calendar day. you can self certify for up to 7 calendar days.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

This is true, but if he has been asked to get one and he has, it might as well be the right one.

If she is the manager, why on earth is she asking for any note in this period? Surely she knows the 7 day thing.

subaruturbo_18

She's a moody what-not who brings her home problems to work and takes them out on us. She is also utterly useless. I work in a phone store so it's usually full of complete numpties in management. You think that's bad, my area manager tried to give me a disciplinary for not changing some of the promotional posters even though I'm not required to do it .


How do i self certify? And would i have to do this within the first 7 days?

I have never heard of a fit note before, then again I'm not fit yet

I'm actually very irritated by her. I am always at work and don't like to take sick time off as we are a small store and if i take sick days off then i stitch people up, And my manager knows this. In fact, one of my colleagues I've known for a long time and shes going out with one of my close mates so i always feel bad on her part If i do take time off. But the cheek of texting me when I'm at home ill basically saying "i don't believe you, prove it" just winds me up.

bigsinky

is she going to formally withdraw self certification? ( as she is entitled to do if she feels it is being abused). if she is then i would be asking what grounds she has for the withdrawal. normal practice is to self certify for the first 7 calendar days. all work places will require a doctors certificate from the 8th day.

employees also have the right to be contacted at home. they should expect a call from an employer if they have not phoned in. she needs to find out whats wrong with you, when you can be expected back at work, and if you have any urgent work that needs doing. this allows her to manage her staff and work more effectively. this does not constitute harrassment as everyone should be treated the same.

having said that she should treat every illness as "genuine" even if she thinks/knows it is not. she should not be passing comment on your illness and should treat your fairly and amicably on your return. if your comapny has a managing attendaance policy, she should speak to you on your return. you can then complete your self certificate and she can complete whatever "return to work" interview she requires.

subaruturbo_18

I completely agree with the above about them being able to contact you, but i kept good contact with the number two who is incharge as my manager is actually on holiday at the moment. I wasnt due to start until 2 o clock today but phoned at 10am, explained me situation well, said i was unsure how i would feel tomorrow as my fever seems to clear up towards the evening but then returns in the morning.

But then out of the blue my manager texts me saying that, the text was very pissy, and from what i have gathered, the self certificate is done when i return to work anyway? so there was really no need for her to text me in such a stroppy way.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Basically, to self certify, if it works the same as my work, you would be off for up to 7 days and upon return to work you would complete a form, not sure what it's called off the top of my head. So long as you have been in contact to say you are not coming in, why and for how long you think, that should be all you need to do other than filling in the form on return. As BS says, if your illness runs into the 8th day you will need a 'fit note'. Basically all this is is a note deeming whether you are fi to work. If you are not fit to work in any way, they will tick that box and you don't work. If however your GP deems you could do 'other duties', different hours etc. then they will select that option and I think it rests on your employer whether they can work around this.

It would feel like she doesn't believe you, as she shouldn't be requesting a note. Fair play get in touch to establish what is wrong/when you will return.

bigsinky

in practice Lisa this doesn't actually happen. AFAIK not 1 GP in NI was contacted about the new procedure of "may be fit in a range of duties" and therefore just treat the "fit note" as a sick note. a GP has 10, maybe 15 minutes to diagnose and give advice. if he has to start asking what you do for a job and what you think you would be capable of doing then this is going lengthen the time you are in with them. GPs just do not have the time to do this. Money saving scheme that targets the long term sick and eases other places like Occupation Health Services.

Xx-IAN-xX

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If its the same virus i've just had it seems to dissapear then comes back a couple of days later. I always get a doctors note wether it be a day off or a fortnight , play it safe

bigsinky

@OP

i would be going back to work when i felt fit enough to do. I would ask for a self certificate from your employer to cover the 7 calendar days or less. if she insists that you get a doctors line say you have already asked your GP and he has refused as the illness was less than 7 days. if she withdraws your self certificate privilege then she needs to show "just cause" as she may be on the wrong end of a discrimination case otherwise.

take no **** mate. just be firm without losing your temper. you will of course be subject to the full rigours of your company's managing attendance procedures and must be prepared to face the consequences if you breach any company triggers in relation to sick leave. it is usually a specified number of periods and/or a specified number of days in a "rolling" year.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Well my doctor didn't even know they had come out. It wasn't until my work twisted about getting the wrong note and then proceeded to phone the surgery to request the correct one.

He did treat it as a normal sicknote, largely as I wasn't fit to return in any capacity. However when it was due to run out, I had a follow up appointment and he was going to sign me off for longer. I wanted to get back, but was still quite unwell so I asked if was able to do something, we discussed it and he did in fact fill in special circumstances and conditions. Shame work haven't been very accomodating and this if anywhere is where the system will fall down.

bigsinky

Not always as easy as that Ian. some GPs will refuse a certificate if the illness is less than 7 days

hodgy0_2

I believe the self cert rule was brought in at the behest of employers who were tired of doctor’s signing off the first - one, two, three or five day’s sick

That way the onus/burden of proof is put on the individual rather that “outsourced” to a health professional.

I would assume it is much easier to dismiss an employee who self certifies as oppose to having an illness “signed off” by a doctor

bigsinky

Lisa, an organisation is under no obligation (even with the backing of DDA) to make any "reasonable adjustment". if they want, they can be as thran as they like. most adjustments though cost nothing in real terms, so most employers who want to see their staff back at work will try to accommodate as much as possible as long as the adjustment fits in with the "business need". bit of a murky subject and very subjective from a managers point of view.

bigsinky

again hodgy, a misconception. the employer has to prove abuse of self certification before removal. these sick people have rights ya know.

Xx-IAN-xX

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I didn't realise that BS , I ask my doctor for a certificate and tell him its for piece of mind so my employer doesn't think i'm pulling a fast one and he writes me a note there and then . You'd think that was in everyones interest

oldsplice

I believe you can ask for a private GP certificate, which will cost you £10.

bigsinky

splicer is right ,i'd forgot about that

hodgy0_2

but surely Big, it is easier to prove abuse of a self cert than a sign off by a Doctor -- as you are in effect questioning the actions of a Doctor.

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Well it's all very pointless then.

I'm not sure who 'fought' for the fit notes, but what is the point in them if a company isn't required to actually honour any recommendations? Surely if this is the case you may as well just have a sicknote, you are either well enough to work or you are not. I agree with the principle and in some cases changes can be made to have you back at work, but if an employer won't adjust it's pointless, then what? Go back on the sick because they won't budge? If that is the case it opens up the problem of being subject to problems regarding sickness policy (as you mentioned re. amount of periods of absence within a rolling year which we have in place).

I get what you say regarding most companies doing the 'right' thing as there is no real cost and want you just to be there, but in practice if this does not happen, what if any rights does a person have? They make you feel pressured into returning to work, they say they will make accomodations, then don't.

I just really fail to grasp the point in these fit notes if they ultimately mean nothing.

bigsinky

Lisa,

in making reasonable adjustment for employees, senior managers have to look at things like cost implications to the business, does meeting the demands of reasonable adjustment impact on the business needs. if they consider them to be unreasonable then they are not oblidged to give them. too often staff hold managers and businesses to ransom. i will come back if i can work part time or term time. the manager ultimately has to look at the sustainability of a job. can our business sustain reduced hours or do we need a bum in a seat 5 days a week. if its not sustainable or doesnt fit in with business requirement then they are under no obligation to meet that adjustment.

the time implication makes it difficult for GPs to give only cursory findings based on the persons condition and what they actually do. pretty cut and dried if you do manual labour and have a slipped disc, that will be just a sick note. where the grey area comes in is on the mental side of things where a member of staff will effectively hold management to ransom. for example the doctor makes a recommendation that the person may be fit for work if they do not have to answer the phone or speak to members of the public. if they work in busy office that has a public counter then effectively they can stay in the back office and not have to deal with anyone. other staff see this and ask why do he does not have to answer phone or speak to the public. as a manager you cannot tell them anything other than there is a medical reason, which the others will see as a white wash and a case of the tail wagging the dog.

Managers are not prepared to go against medical opinion and question GPs recommendations. the fact that answering phones and dealing with the public makes up the majority of the person job is not seen as a good enough reason to question anything. managers are too scared of the "discrimination" case. my GP says i am ill and shouldn't answer phones yet you are making me. "yes love its your ******* job". But no, managers roll over and are not prepared to make the difficult decision to sack an employee because by taking GPs advice they have made themselves virtually unemployable in their current job.

bigsinky

an employer will never question a sick note from a GP. they can however conduct an internal investigation to see if the actions of a member of staff are not in keeping with the current illness. e.g off work with back pain, yet painting the eaves of your house, running the belfast marathon etc etc.

hodgy0_2

and that is my point -- by moving to a non GP/Health professional system the onus is on the employee by self certifying himself

Toffee

iTrader: (3)

Heres how I see it ( I am a senior Manager with 72 employees >) For an unauthorised absence of 5 working days or less you only need to privide a self cert note. Any longer you are required to provide a doctors sick note.

If someone proides me with a sick note I wouldnt automatically assume it is genuine, in this day and age anyone who goes in to a doctors and says there sick gets a sick note and time off work based on what they tell the doctor, not because the doctor has provided a full medical and examination.

A common way of monitoring unauthorised absences is more than 10 days off per annum or 3 or more occassions off per annum, this would trigger an invite to a disciplinary hearing to discuss your ability to fullfil your contract to cover your job at work.

I am always disappointed at staff who come to work spouting off they know the law regarding sickness and then start by telling me the rules and regs, half of the time these people know more about rules and regs about sickness than they do there own job.

IMHO > go back to work, apologise for the disruption that your unauthorised absence caused and assure them/her it will not happen again.

fitzscoob

Whilst I'm sympathetic to the cause, whenever I feel marginally under the weather its always worse in the mornings and better in the evenings due to me not wanting to get out of bed.

Are you really that ill that you cant function at work, doing your job?

If you were self employed doing whatever job you can think of, would you be missing out on a days wage because of how you felt right now?

bigsinky

Correct

Shame on you, all illnesses are genuine


True, in the vast majority of cases

Common triggers in a lot of UK businesses these days. For permanent staff however. temporary and probationary usually have triggers after each absence.

sadly, the claim culture we live in nowadays.

the beatings will continue until morale improves, eh?

Toffee

iTrader: (3)

Having met and been trained by HR peeps, your answers have a wiff of HR