Mifo

iTrader: (10)

just watched this on youtube -
dont know what to say really, see for yourself.

(contains graphic violence - people getting shot)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-byU_...os=imsYTrtndwQ

boomer

Full video(s) at Collateral Murder

Shocking!

mb

rookymatt

iTrader: (15)

Bloody yanks, just think they are playing call of duty or something. How anyone can make a decision upon some grainy camera footage?!! Then to "assume" someone is up to no good (with that as a valid reason to murder them) is totally beyond me.

stephen_942

To be fair they are looking down from a good distance up if anyone knows what a c130 is then u wil know what i mean. if i was in that position on the ground closer up and looking at the same sight picture they still would of had it. its ok saying might not of been weapons well u go out there get close up to inspect if its a weapon didnt think u would want to. if i had a c130 above me like that i would be happy cos i no my **** is covered by someone not afraid to make a hard decision and stand by it. well do to the bloke/s

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Its war, yes but that was just very uncomfortable viewing, the blokes in the van werent armed, were no threat and were simply removing a casualty, I can sort of understand them shooting those who were armed but even then they had no idea of what was going on.

hodgy0_2

whereas the british army equip the man, the US army just man the equipment

davyboy

I'm not quite sure we know the full story behind this.

If we were not told they were camera's, we'd be assuming they were carrying weapons and they had good reason to shoot.

The fact it's been made in to a little movie with pictures of people and showing them carrying cameras makes me suspicious.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

They do have a track record in these kind of matters...

davyboy

Before you belive everything, watch the full video and imagine you are the pilot and have been called out to look at insurgents with weapons.

Why was the chopper there? They don't just fly around killing people. We can assume it was called for by ground troops.

There are definately 2 blokes with guns in that video, one of them has a stripey top

In the video a walking soldier even thinks a dead guy has an RPG..and he's a few feet from it

The guy peering around the corner, looks like he has a gun. The Chopper has been told the guys are armed. Us watching have been told they have cameras. If I was told these guys were armed, I'd think it was a gun.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

I suspect it goes on like that all the time over there, its just shocking as we dont generally see it like that, I cant get over the fact they seemed to be enjoying themselves when I would expect cold detachment and "Target Neutralized" kind of language rather than look at those dead B4stards, then again I have never been shot at or had anyone attempt to blow me up at the side of the road, so I may well feel different.

Steve vRS

It is said that the whooping and 'enjoyment' is done subconsciously to make the act seem more remote and detached so that it doesn't feel like you are mowing down real people.

It would appear that a grave mistake has been made. I doubt it was the Apache pilots intention to kill civilians so a grave mistake rather than a malicious act.

Unfortunately in wars relying on air power, these mistakes happen very easily.

Steve

Leslie

I don't consider it to be a mistake. I believe they were looking for an excuse to kill. Can't believe they wanted to shoot at those who were recovering the wounded who were no threat.

Les

Steve vRS

I was being charitable with my comments. I believe it was a mistake but mistake is too gentle a word for it.

The pilots and gunner must be brought to account for their actions.

Steve

Leslie

Les

WIZZY2376

Ive a good friend who is ex 2 Para . A lad he served with passed selection for the SAS . Has been in for over 6 years. He was telling us they were attached to the us army , for a raid on civillian homes suspected of harbouring insurgents . The US plan was "we will bomb all the houses" the SAS involved said what about civillians ? The US reply was "colateral damage" . In the end the SAS raided the homes alone , no civillians were harmed .My point being, first hand accounts of proffesional British troops being disgusted at US mentallity . I still have good mates serving in 2 Para , the storys of US gung ho attitude are endless.

hodgy0_2

as i said in post #6 the US military are just there to man the equipment, and pull the trigger

MJW

I watched this video the other day & although the killing of the civvies was totally out of order, if you imagine it's yourself up in the air with your finger on the trigger it can't be easy having to make those sort of decisions in an instant.

Steve vRS

I could sympathise if it was one of us up there, but how many years of training have these people had to equip them to make these ultimate life or death decisions?

Steve

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

It seems the instatutionalised mentality used in the decision process makes it easy TBH

urban

iTrader: (1)

Nope

As said - keeping in mind you've been called there for a reason
And you see people with guns and then one with what looks like an RPG - you'd press fire too.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

I don't think it was a 'mistake' either. Those jumped up 'John Waynes' were going to engage no matter what. I'm no expert but those on the ground did not display any suspicious behaviour or threatening body language. They just seemed to be going about their business in a normal everyday manner. To think our soldiers are having to fight alongside these ******. Mind you at least when they're shooting innocent civilians they're not shooting our boys in a friendly fire incident!

Bugatti

If the video was of armed forces belonging to a country who weren't allies of America/Britain, then they'd be branded as war crimes. It just seems, anything the west/Israel does is justified and acceptable. Any acts carried out by "non-allies" is always branded as heavy handed/terrorism/unacceptable. The double standards are unbelievable.

Also, lets not forget the innocents shot in the video were not in the wrong place at the wrong time, they are in THEIR country going about THEIR business being shot at and murdered by an invading force.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Do you understand what was going on at the time?

Quick review.

Helecopter pilot/co pilot pick up several people on the ground with what seem to be AK47 rifles, one is clearly visible at that time, 2 people have what seem to be other weapons, these could have been anything from anti aircraft missles to anti tank weaponry, its very hard to distinguish at that range, but when you have patrols in the area and your there to give air cover you give air cover.

Your average joe bloggs there wont be carrying an AK47 assault rifle, your average terrorist may well be.

Helecopter waits for authorisation to engage, the "cameraman" is hiding behind a wall pointing something towards said helecopter, jeez even I would open fire on that, its a "them or me" situation, remember we have lost aircraft to RPG ground fire!!

The helecopters engaged the armed group (remember that atleast one was armed, that then incriminates the group), a ground patrol was despatched to the area to investigate, one person was still alive, the helecopters DID NOT engage this person, they waited for the patrol to go in, a van pulls up and starts getting the person in the back of it, these are unknown people, not of any medical group, trying to move that person and possibly any weaponry (its hard to see when you have a van in the way), this is a known terrorist tactic to remove any person who can give them away, it may not be right but its a life or death situation for those troops going in on the ground.

Engage or not? hard call, not the right one but then again it could have been the other way around, the troops didnt take long to show up at the scene, if any first aid was to be given then it would have been then.

99% of people probably have not been in a situation where that could happen or where you have to make a decision that quickly, yes the yanks can be trigger happy, but still its a hard call, the yanks have a "fire first, ask questions later" policy, though dont you think some of this wouldnt have happened if the Journalists would have informed the US forces that they were doing some filming in the area?

As for the kids (as that would have arisen), 2 bags of shopping on the front seat of the van, its virtually impossible to say what they were at the time, I would give anyone a million quid to say that those were children, the only reason they knew was after they picked up the bodies, its alot of pacifists making a meal out of it, yes its not good, but then again go to some of the african nations where you see the murder of entire settlements over the last 10 years and I bet you didnt give a damn about those?

Tony

davyboy

Was rather like a computer game wasn't it?

Apache pilot II - Iraq

boomer

+1

I started to reply to TonyBurns' post but gave up, as it appears that his Scoobynet account has been hijacked by one of those murdering US pilots

Even if they had been carrying AK47s and RPGs (which i expect isn't actually illegal in Iraq) they would have posed no threat whatsoever to a helicopter gunship that was probably a mile away!! Good job that the injured man (who was later murdered) didn't manage to grab a hand-gun as he crawled along the gutter - i mean, those brave soldiers could have been very scared indeed

mb

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

You have no understanding of what its like to have peoples lives in your hands, its a you or them situation, all your seeing is weeks of research rather than minutes, lets see what your like given the same situation bet you wouldnt like to make the call, just think if it were your friends/mates on the ground and this lot were armed to the teeth, go for it, love to see your expression when they turn up and get slaughtered by some guy with an rpg7

If you cant understand the issue then you shouldnt reply, been there and seen it, have you?

Tony

Bugatti

Going by the above comment, I take it all of us that have been moaning about what a crap job Gordon Brown and Co have done, also shouldnt be judging as we've "not been there and done it" (Prime Minister's Job that is), therefore can't understand the pressures they are under when they make these WISE decisions that us normal folk can't comprehend.

Similarly I've also not been in a positiong where I have raped a woman, does that mean I can't judge whether it's right or wrong as I have never been there and done it?

Anger

iTrader: (4)

But what about the ground troops they are supporting and protecting

I agree with Tony

SirFozzalot

I wonder how this would be seen if the roles were reversed.

What if the Taliban etc. had the weapons/aircraft that the coalition forces have and were doing strikes on us, do you think they would be discretionary on who they shoot at?

Not saying this makes it right but it's something I was thinking about.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

You have to put yourself in the seat of the guys in the helecopters, knowing they have people on the ground, not by what your being told is going on by some guy ringing a picture saying its a camera, note they didnt ring the one saying its an AK47, its not a game, they make games reallistic so you can get a feel, but you never will, the adrenelin rush wont be there, the quick thinking wont be there, the "lives depend on it" wont be there, in a game its "oh im dead, start again", not there, so your now the helecopter pilot, forget all that crap thats ringed, look at it, interprate it in the same ammout of time they have, its not exactly easy to do, and the journalists really did **** up, not saying where they went, remember at the time this is a hot zone, not just some back yard where you can stroll about.

Tony