Martin2005

Following the rather heated discussions of the past couple of nights I thought it might be a idea to constructively discuss the much bigger picture behind the horrid incident in Bradford.

Now we've all made our views very clear on the incident itself, so let's not go back over that ground. I really want this to be constructive and friendly and as you will see from below my views are probably not that far removed from most of yours.


It was obvious from the earlier thread that we all feel that there is something quite wrong right now with certain elements in our society. We clearly have some enormous social issues in this country, we all agree that we have too many people that have no respect for other peoples property and/or quality of life. These are often young people (but of course that is by no means definitive as I'm sure we can all think of some not so young people that fall into this category), living on sink estates who believe that the world revolves around them, and have little or no real interaction with what you and I would call 'normal society'.

What I struggle with is what do we do about this problem? I think it's probably too late for large parts of the current generation of social inadequates. But for the good of everyone in the country we should surely be thinking of why young people are taking this path and how do we stop this problem perpetuating to the next generation. Politicians of all sides have failed miserably, they've failed the victims of these people and in some ways they've failed the perpetrators too.

My own (very slightly left of centre) view of all this is that it's too easy to fall into this lifestyle, broken families and poor parenting lie at the heart of a lot of these problems, a lack of a 'good and respectable' role model is a massive issue, a criminal justice system that is far too soft compounds the problem, too many youngests are simply opting out of education, and therefore destroying their own expectations of life. I believe that all of this results in a complete lack of any kind of moral compass, and respect for others.

The what to do about it is the real toughy though.
I believe we need a lot more 'stick than carrot'.

Toughen up sentencing make the criminal pay a very high price for their crimes.
More police given more effective powers.
Hold parents more accountable for the actions of their children.
GET THEM INTO SCHOOL EVERY DAY
Stop 'something for nothing benefits' - this is a big issue although I still don't know exactly how you prevent the genuinely needy being penalised.
We need to invest massively in the local communities, why do we still have sink estates in this country?

All of this of course cost money and if we feel strongly about then unfortunately we would have to shoulder some of the burden

Well there are my thoughts, I'd like to hear yours, and I hope that in a open and friendly way we can discuss this huge issue.

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

10 past midnight - what a time to start a serious debate.

Let me type some rambling thoughts:

Social responsibility is at an all time low. People look the other way far too often. People have lost the link between actions and consequences. Quick fixes are applied rather than looking at the root cause of issues. Cheap rewards are now so readily available that the effort required to better oneself hardly seems worth it, people are too focussed on material gains and not personal improvement.

Why read a book and get involved when you can watch a film and have it wash over you? Why go to a play and feel a part of the production when the production is so readily available in your own home?

Why bother? It's all there, cheap and easy to get.



Because we now live in a materialistic society, the connection between effort and achievement is broken and kids are being brought up to find the easy fix.


I guess I'm being negative here... it's late and I may be better able to express my thoughts more coherently in the morning.

unclebuck

Well done, and thank you martin for such a considered and well thought out post.

You are a credit to the community, whereas I on the other hand.... have to hang my head in shame...

mart360

To the original op

Alle bloody lulia!!!

we've all been banging on about more stick for bloody ages, but the

bleeding heart liberals (you included if i recall ) keep saying no!!


We need to get tough, and quickly,

its a two part process, we need to deprive them from the cause of the

problem, (prison would work wonders) whilst giving them a viable

alternative and something constructive to do so when they come out, they

can put something back into society

Giving them ipods, or 2 weeks in the bahama,s sends out the wrong

message. Unfortunatly to do this, we need a good dose of getting rid of

PC and the HRA.

COMMON SENSE!!!!!! / tougher sentencing and a bit of name & shame

would work wonders.

Mart

Dan W

this forthcoming economic depression will soon sort out the material minded.

I fear we are going to hit a period not seen since the 30s. but then that's no real bad thing.

We will survive.

j4ckos mate

ok, well my blueprint is as follows,
im sure lots will pick holes in it but there you go.

1. no work, no dole - alot of people are on the dole do gardening jobs, window cleaning, if they are trimming churchyards, and oap gardens etc this will be eliminated.

2. big shops shouldnt be making billions selling loaves, extra taxes on them - pay for prisons.

3. no more foreign aid. - not for the foreseable future anyway.

4. mandatory two years if caught with a knife.

5. the sentence served should be the sentence served - no time off it for being good. im good all the time, i dont get a present for it.

6. voting mandatory, unless your on the dole. no work no vote.
parties will then tailor their policies towards giving working people a break.

7. immigration give it till the end of jan 09, then shut the door.
its common sense, we have to sort ourselves out first.


9.The telly, no more reality shows, but alot stronger sensorship of plots and storylines, transexuals, and violence etc.
the bill is a good example people getting stabbed and shot shouldnt be on at that time, the worst we had was granville giving his grandad a bit of cheek

10. criminals dealt with a lot tougher, it should be like when you are a kid,
your happy with your lot, but darent cross your parents, because if you did that was it. it should be the same for them, the sentences should be the big deterrent. there is not enough being done to deter young people from crime, its too easy to sell a bit of draw and nicked stereos, and stay in bed.
i dont like work either but i do it.


11. arm the police.

12. council houses tenants get your grass cut and look after your property.
my mum and dad live here:-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wythenshawe, they are 75 and there house is immaculate, there is no reason why everybody elses shouldnt be.

13.i also have a problem with the motabillity scheme, if you are disabled and need to get a car, thats great, but the act of driving the thing means you can get a driving job or a lorry driver.

14. a revamp of the school curriculum, it should finish at 5pm allowing parents who work to leave them there. alot more foreign languages learnt, espescially mandarin.

15. finally we will all be one, old people, they shouldnt be paying any utility bills, we could all afford an extra tenner a month to know that after sixty we wont pay any at all.
the situation of not being able to put your heating on but have a brand new free mortability car outside is staggering.

16. illegal immigrants already here that have been accepted, sign a charter,
this is the UK dress english, behave yourself or kindly depart these shores.


so there you go, im sure they need tweeking
before i get called herman goering, id like to tell you abit about myself,

im 38 brought up in wythenshawe, left school at sixteen went to college and drifted into a job at the airport, all of my family have always worked,
infact my dad worked for his boss for 38 years in a warehouse in trafford park, and every saturday used to go and do his garden in a big house in wilsmlow. just for the extra luxuries and pressies for the kids, imagine how he must have felt doing the bosses garden. but he knew it was to help his family with money. fantastic attitude to life


, we werent poor but only went on holiday once, and i was dead happy as a kid with what i had, i met a girl, bought a house had kids got married, and im trying to instill the morals my parents did on me on my children.



so there you have it thats where my views come from.

Dan W

Champion

Apart from a little tweaking - I'll go along with that.

SteveScooby

iTrader: (2)

The main problem I see is with breeding.

Your average socially responsible couple will get a house, and not have children until they are financially secure to a certain extent, maybe at 25-30.

Your average scum bag doesn't care and will get knocked up at 14-17 to get a council house, and the associated benfits.

That means that the responsible people are becoming more and more out-numbered.

*I don't mean by this that every 16 year old parent is a scrounger, it's a generalisation. However, I'm confident that the average parenting age is lower in "deprived areas"

Leslie

Excellent post Martin, lot of good sense in that.

I would also say that we have to go right back to the start with people. There are so many parents now who do not have the responsibilty to bring up their children right from square one. So many now allow their children to run wild and spend half the night on the streets and I think that is where the trouble all stems from.

It is the same with all children to a greater or lesser extent. They are as likely to take a bad path as a good one as they grow up depending on the influences which they experience. The parents have to bring them up in the best way of thinking and that means a respect for authority and an unselfish nature being prepared to think of others as well as themselves. It is down to the parents to discipline them and set them off in the right direction for their future lives. There is no longer a feeling of shame at being caught out in some kind of misbehaviour.

All this is not helped by the laws against the use of physical discipline for children and it undermines the parents' authority. The same applies to schools as well where the teachers' hands are tied so that children will just ignore them or worse with no fear of a telling punishment.

The next failure is that of the authorities now not being prepared to give suitable punishment for bad or criminal behaviour anymore. Yet again they will just say yes sir no sir to the magistrate or judge at the same time laughing behind their hands and go off and do it all again.

The only way is to give a punishment which is unpleasant enough so that they do not want to go through that again. This of course denotes a failure in the way that person was brought up, but it may go some way to protecting innocent parties.

Allowing the present situation to continue will lead to a breakdown in law and order.

Les

spireite

I vote Jacko's Mate

richs2891

Have to agree with pretty much everything that has been written, and I would vote for any party that would do what has been suggested but I can honestly say I don't think we will see ever see all, if not 1/2 of what has been written as its simply not a vote winner as it will effect the pocket of the majority of people !
Hope that does not come across as too negative !

Richard

spireite

Love the advertisement below

dpb

They got something in SA called the shambock....

j4ckos mate

i just think we have lost our way a little, im sure its reversible, but it needs to start on the estates with the little kids

David Lock

It's too late

We all know it's horrendously complicated and there will be a list of 100 things that should be different. Near the top of the list will be parenting, discipline in schools, the family unit - all the usual suspects, and a lot more bedsides.

But society is, IMHO, irreprably doomed. The government tinkers at the edges and the Tories wouldn't really change much.

To do any real good would need a completely new culture and a strong government with a hard leader. That's just not going to happen.

Oh and all this talk about prison. Does it actually work?

dl

j4ckos mate

you think it may not work as a deterrent,
well, when they are in there they cant commit crime,
and my prisons would work

Dan W

Does prison actually work? That is a good question.

I don't think our system works because we are too soft on the criminals but i think the systems in place in some the U.S. prisons work.

Ban nicotine, coffee, chocolate, ****. make the crims where pink. ban TV force then into chain gangs helping the community.

Force them into rehab programmes. Give sentences that reflect the public disgust at the some of the crimes and make the crims serve the sentence given and not get out early on 'good behaviour'.

If i get knicked for speeding and get 3 points and a 60 quid fine I don't get the points removed and the fine reduced if I drive at a more acceptable speed.

Sorry if i seem a bit strict but perhaps if people were scared to death of prison they may think before commiting the crime.

David Lock

And that's a haven of harmony and law abiding citizens

dpb

I see that nowadays parents are spending too much time working to buy a house which is overpriced and therefore not enough time interacting with thier offspring. They would prefer them to be safe and therefore shell out for computer games , which in turn leads them to not develop their own socail skills . When it comes to meeting up its liable to be something as violent as weve been hearing about.
We may also have added problems in places where theres a high ethnic concentration and this to some extent can blamed on our poor immigration stance , very bad control and then very inadequate support once here .!
The place is also about as soft as soft can be as far as keeping order is concerned - down to wishy washy do good 'liberals' ( not the party )
Prison ,asbo's are no threat - theyre a badge of honour !
Its quite intresting that in most places originally populated by some immigrants coperal punishment is the order of the day.

And making our home grown layabouts work for there bread is something which should never have been dropped - i did it in 1986 after a year on the rock and roll

Kieran_Burns

iTrader: (1)

I read this and my first thought was that the only way out of the picture you paint is a damn' big war. I don't mean a 'limited conflict' type one, but a World War, with conscription and the kind of imposed societal discipline required at such times.

The only problem being, such a war would probably sound the death knell for the Human Race.

Diesel

Great straightforward post Jacko. I'd have to take issue with many of your points but wont, as I'd prefer the pendulum to swing the other way a bit for a change.

The only thing I'd say is I dont really come across these dregs of society that seem so prevalent according to the posts here. Of course they exist, but the parents of all the kids in my kids' classes are decent normal working people. Whilst I don't know all of them personally there is no doubt in my mind that they instil proper values in their kids, as I do.

I dont live on an island either - I have an unemployed mate (its genuine...) and very good mates from good families with good families who grew up on council estates. 2 still live there in lovely houses.

The dregs of society are not around every corner where I live in quite a big city - just trying to give a bit of perspective, that's all

D

Dan W

That's a fair point there diesel but I grew up a a vally town during th 80s where unemployment went through the roof when the Mines were shut down. many people drifted into long term unemployment, drugs etc as a consequence. What I noticed and still see it today is that the karen matthews of this world tend to live on the fringes of society and mainly out of sigh and unnoticed by us who get up and go to work.

When I first left school there were no jobs available. I had no qualifications and no prospects so i went back to college in my early 20s. many of the boys i grew up with live on estates taking drugs or sitting in the local pub. I can think of many who in 20 odd years have never worked. like me they left scholl with nothing and adopted a victim mentality.

I think the problems are rife up and down the country but we dont neccessarily see it because the people are 'behind the scenes' so to speak.

cster

The social welfare system means that people are encouraged not to work and to have children.
It also means that those who decide to work have to work even harder to pay increased taxes to support this system. They must wait longer to start families and will have to work longer to support the system.
This means less time for them to spend with their families and may even mean both parents working - further exacerbating the negative effect on family life on the upbringing of our young.
It's a shame, but I don't think any political party in this country will take this view so we are never going to get the choice.
Even Maggie didn't dare.
It is a bitter pill I must admit.
Having said that, I personally think the whole problem we are discussing has been blown out of proportion by the "tabloid" media and it was probably ever thus.
I would have to say that throwing more money at the problem is definately the wrong approach!(IMO)

dunx

iTrader: (3)

Quick comment - at work !

we have 12 year olds known to the police for aggravated burglary and arson, as they come up to secondary level education.

GULP !

dunx

Diesel

Yes I think you are right mate. I still have schoolmates from where I grew up who live to sit in the same seat in the same pub 20 years later. They cause no one any harm mind.

My unemployed mate even took a job stacking shelves in Tesco at night, but he couldn't stomach it for the £50 or so they paid him. I'm hoping to help him set up his own small business as it can be pretty tough for the middle aged guys to get any half decent work. Either that or he's better off getting an illness

D

dpb

Thats some thing of couse NuLabia have prided itself on - furnishing every scumbag 'disabled' punter from here into eternity with a comfortable lifestyle

The Zohan

Hmm, most cities have 'sink' estates, if you do not know of any then please come up to Northampton, i'll take you along, to a couple and you can sample the delights of the Eastern District for example. No, not all people who live there are scum. However, does not take many to make it hell for those that live there or/and get headlines in the papers.


The answer - a robust and firm approach!
Propper Parenting - by that knowing what you child is doing all the time, decent curfews set by parents, etc.
Parents investing time and effort in education and activities for thier kids and not just blaming everybody or everything else.
Parents and kids who take pride and responsibility in themselves and the enviroment.
Schools and police have a part to play as well. Education is vital
Suitable Punishment(s) for those who offend - parents and kids
Praise and encouragemnt for those that try and do good.
cut out the underage drinking and drug culture that has really taken off over the last 15 years.
Enforced parenting classes for poor parents.
this would be a start...